Chaos(GHC) vs Vitaedrinker(SHC) German pics T3

[chaos45]

So after getting 30 turns in as Soviets vs Pelton I decided to try my hands at zee Germans for a game.

Got my good real life friend Vitaedrinker into playing the game about a month ago so hes going to try his first game as soviets. Not going to claim to be an expert at either side really but we have both been playing hex based strategy game for to many years now.

Options:
Random weather
full Fog of war
mild blizzard
no soviet bonuses

So without further ado the start to operation Barbarossa looks pretty messy no? I had a copy of Peltons cheat sheet but just went with my own strategery and this is how it ended up looking at the end of Turn 1. Not unhappy but felt I coulda done abit better if hadn't botched some infantry attacks in the south up bad lol. Thought I had remembered my opening from my practice games but I guess not cause I got hit with attack stopped a ton when in my last practice they had been easy. Guess the soviet random values made a couple of those divisions better this game.

AG North- Gets Riga and clears the ports and gets a bridgehead over the Dvina all in all a good start and I didnt rout many units out of the pockets plus I think all my pockets in the north are solid.

[chaos45]

AG Center

[chaos45]

AG South- cut off the bottom but I did just reach the Romanian border and cut the rail- he can re-open it but the damage is done and it will be immediately re-closed next turn.

[Peltonx]

Looks good, now the trick is to keep the ball rolling.

If you can't what is Plan B?

Did you do fuel drops to Corp HQ or MoT divisions AFTER you moved.

AGN: your elite units should be at the front of infantry that is what gives you the option of a right hook.

AGC looks good.

AGS only the 4 Jager divisions and Romanians should be holding the pocket turn 2 rush infantry forward.
The longer it takes to kill off the pocket the better.

Russian player want pockets to hold out longer, I am all for that the longer the better.

[chaos45]

I did my air drops to the panzer/motorized units I wanted to keep moving on Turn 2. Was able to get several close to 100% fuel still after their first turn movements.

I tried to free up as many German infantry units to move forward as possible I was slowed in the south because I failed some of my first attacks so that slowed the infantry advance in the south by probably one hex for several divisions. Had the same issue in the Center because the first infantry assault on Brestlivotsk failed so had to assault it again so a slight slowing of the infantry. One of the reasons I pushed the pocket areas back 1 hex was to free the infantry of Zocs to move forward and pull the rear divisions up to act as a screen

[HITMAN202]

The opening turn is a challenge and Pelton's passing grade on your first try is a little generous ...

An often ignored stat is how many units are disrupted out of pockets (even Pelton IMO my Yoda ignores it.) The main focus on turn one is to destroy as many Soviet units as possible (the other is to get the infantry to the enemy fronts ASAP) and a measure of success to me is to limit routed units to 20. Against THEPROS I had 12 and in a server game versus Mansaw I had 7 !! I count 15-16 for you without a Rovno pocket ( I will address that later) and other units can escape (Riga) that would add to the total.



1)AGN..


A) One of the two most western Baltic Sea ports, (45,37) can still be retaken and possibly establish a supply route thru Priekule to the isolated Soviet units in the western AGN {I think.) Those resupplied units are still doomed, but it will take another turn to isolate them again and then another to clean them up. The focus of early turns in AGN is to get a good number of infantry to Pskov to aid the Pz's in taking that first defensive zone and continue as quickly as possible to Leningrad. I think there also is a chance for that same pocket to be opened south of Riga.



B) You failed to occupy Riga and the Soviets will reoccupy it. I don't try taking Riga (to me it's a 80-20 thing) and I can't figure out how Pelton does it all the time. I seal the AGN pocket south of the city with a Pz division.



C) Kaunas should be taken with II Corp to hasten the FBD progress along that crucial rail path.




II AGC



A) It's likely the massive AGC pocket will be opened at Vilnius. Often times even experienced Germans will overlook this danger. Also failure to keep those hexes open can further delay the FBD's progress on turns 3-4. BTW I double up AGN and AGC FBDs along this rail line and redirect them at (61,49), one to Vitebsk and the other toward Leningrad for 3-4 turns, later to aid it's sister's push to Vitebsk.



B) I direct all AGS infantry divisions north and south of the massive AGC pocket, use the Sec units to contain it and XXXV Corp to reduce it. IMO the slower you reduce AGC and Lvov pockets the 1) quicker you can push the infantry east and 2) the later Soviet replacement units enter the game.


C) You wasted Pz units to form the south edge of the AGS pocket.



III AGS



A) Pretty good, but aim for a Rovno pocket (6-7 more isolated divisions) using the Pz units you wasted in AGC and the hookup to AGS/Romania.



B) Bypass the Lvov pocket with all units and get them trucking east except the LII Corp (to reduce it.) The Romanians will help in closing the Lvov pocket.




There's a big learning curve in all areas of WITE and the German turn 1 is a biggie.

[MattFL]

ORIGINAL: HITMAN202

I don't try taking Riga (to me it's a 80-20 thing) and I can't figure out how Pelton does it all the time.

Taking Riga is easy. First you have to clear a movement path which means moving the SHC Tank Division that's about 3 hexes or so South of Riga out of the way. Once that's done and the path is clear, 2 x PZ Divisions (with or without attached support) can get to the hex east of Riga with 4 MP lefts, enough to hasty attack several times. It's never not worked for me. I would assume that Pelton does the same thing. If you can get it on the first attack, 1 PZ Div occupies the city, the other goes further east.

[chaos45]

Perhaps but all this hexes are isolated so since I cut that area on the dvina all the other should auto switch except for in enemy zocs I think my big center pocket is secure unless I missed something. He could link the pockets but that's not really an issue if that's all that happens

[HITMAN202]

mattp, getting to Riga with the MP's is not the problem, it's the 180-450 defensive value


Chaos, in regards to opening supply to AGC hexes 59,53 and 59,50 I think are vulnerable.

[MattFL]

ORIGINAL: HITMAN202

mattp, getting to Riga with the MP's is not the problem, it's the 180-450 defensive value

Well, it's not just about getting to Riga, it's about getting to the hex directly east of Riga so you don't have to attack across any rivers and getting there with 4 MP so you can attack more than once (4 times actually). Further, an attack like this really only works on T1 because of the T1 surprise rules. So the pre-battle damage and disruption weakens the defense...haven't you noticed on Turn 1 that you get relatively few "helds" even attacking with low odds....

Anyway, you asked how he does it, I'm telling you that's how it's done and I don't know of any other way to do it that guarantees success. You should of course move up the Corps HQ and if you want the PZ Group HQ as well to help in command rolls, but even this isn't totally necessary.

[HITMAN202]

Then we are playing different games. Attacked just 2 minutes ago per above.. Offensive adjusted CV 339... defensive adjusted CV 336. Obvious hold

[chaos45]

Did u put engineers in one of the two panzer divisions? I took it on first hasty but only had 2 MP when I got there so couldn't occupy with only 1 mp left also if it's anything like my game vs pelton the infantry won't have the movement to walk back in lol

[HITMAN202]

It's been a while since I did it chaos, but I spent 4 hours or so 9 months ago loading the 6 th and 1 st Pz to the gills with SU including 2 pioneers and a Jd Pz bat, brought up the HQ, pounded the hell out of it with ground attacks and then only considered the attacks where ground support was triggered and about 65 % of first attacks succeeded, 85% of two attacks, and +95% of 3 or more. Def modified CV ranged from 20 to 600 with an average of 140 or so.

[chaos45]

Just did turn 2. He did get back into riga but kicked him out again with a hasty and moved on Pskov. overall my opening was solid not awesome but solid just taking the ports cut off supply so anything I hit surrendered so will use a couple units to just mop that up as the main advance goes on. Big center pockets held and he managed to open most the stuff in the south as standard but I just ended up making a bigger pocket with everything but the Rovno area. Also already across the Dnepr [8D]

[chaos45]

AG North pushes forward smashing the Pskov defense line.

[chaos45]

AG Center drives forward crossing the Dnepr after pushing aside a screening division.

[chaos45]

Pocket battles continue in the South as more and more Soviets units are being trapped.

[MattFL]

Allowing the Dnepr to be broken SW of Smolensk on Turn 2 is shameful. A lot of panzers and MOT heading towards Gomel area. Really, this should be an SHC dream....

I won't comment on the mess in the south.

For the German side, maybe I'm missing something but it seems that either a) you chose your path of advance without doing any recon or b) the land bridge is not defended? My goodness...

[chaos45]

I chose the path of least resistence, I ran into 2 divisions/bdes on the center and north rail lines to the east of Minsk only ran into one division guarding the south rail line so hasty attacked it a couple times pushing out of the way and then found the actual Dnepr crossing unguarded.

Yes in the south he should have retreated I talked to him on the phone afterward, it gets worse on T3 as I get an encirlcement on all of the units by the swamp as well and get a a massive advance across the Ukraine.

As to GHC dream for Dnepr, yep is good but also supply is quickly becoming an issue lol

[MattFL]

ORIGINAL: chaos45

... and then found the actual Dnepr crossing unguarded.

This is the shameful part. [;)]

As to GHC dream for Dnepr, yep is good but also supply is quickly becoming an issue lol

Certainly breaching the Dnepr is a GHC dream on T2, but having all of those PZ's and MOT heading towards Gomel is an SHC dream....well, would be if SHC hadn't gifted the crossing away!