a complete graphics and interface overhaul

[sPzAbt653]

no scroll bars

I hear ya, but just to play devils advocate - most menus in TOAW are only a few lines, when would you need a scroll bar? I mean, there might be 20 scenarios in a folder and the screen shows 15 of them. Why need a scroll bar ?

text very tiny ... menu buttons very small, have to read small tool-tips to figure out what is what

What resolution are you using ? When I first got W7 it defaulted to 1280 but this was too small for me, so I changed it to 1024 and its good.

[76mm]

Ugh. Chose Frozen Steppes 1942-43 at random.
--Counters are too small to be legible at "Large2D" view, and very pixellated/ugly in "Huge3D" view.
--No forms use standard UI--none are resizable, have to find "exit" button from among several buttons at bottom;
--tooltips unnecessarily long--"This is the situation briefing button. Click here to see situation briefing." I get it--why not just "Situation Briefing"
--terrain "shown" in upper right box pretty much illegible--what am I looking at?
--I'd rather have the 8 rows of buttons spread in a single row along the top of the screen, with an assignable hotkey for each of them.
--if I click on a hex with a stack of units, I want to see all the units in the stack in the right hand bar, and not have to cycle through each of them in the top right screen.
--Have the strategic map as a pop-up, and bigger.

I could go on, but I think that's enough, at least until we find out if the dev team is actually looking for feedback on UI/graphics.

I would like to compare the UI for TOAW with that for Tiller's Panzer Campaigns. While Panzer Campaigns is also a very old series at this point, the graphics (at least once modded) are very attractive, and the UI, while not winning any prizes, is clean and functional--the only thing that would really help with the PZC UI is having assignable hotkeys for all commands.

I'm hoping to pick this game up (for the third or fourth time) but definitely won't do so unless the UI and graphics undergo a fairly radical improvement. And pls give scenario designers a break and redo the scenario designer UI while you're at it.

[sPzAbt653]

There is lots of screen real estate, why not use it?

Certainly all dialogue boxes could be larger. This would go a long way in helping see stuff. Keep in mind though, that they have to have options for all sorts of monitor sizes.

Below is 1024 x 768, still plenty of room to stretch that box and make it more viewable. I can't imagine anyone uses a resolution less than 1024. Any 800 x 600'ers still out there ?

[sPzAbt653]

1024x768? this so like... a couple of years ago

I know, lol. Imagine my disappointment with finally getting W7 so many years after release and then having to revert to 1024. Some improvement, huh ?

But have you tried it ? You might like it !

Anyway, looking at Daniele's post, specially this part, I would say not many things could be changed at this point

The Operational Art of War IV will fully support modern computer hardware and operating systems. This will make it more user-friendly and able to scale to higher resolutions, especially in terms of font and button size. It reorganizes and adds functionality to many very useful screens and dialogs to make them more informative and easier to use.

I think you are reading it wrong. This says what they plan, not what they have done ? [It says 'will' not 'does'].

[sPzAbt653]

I want to have the option to see as much map as possible. That won't change the unit size.

You lost me here, how can we view a larger map area without changing the size of the units ? The only way I can think of would be Full Screen Map Mode [eliminating all the non-map area], but it really wouldn't be playable that way ?

[sPzAbt653]

All good points in post #22 Mr. 76mm. Again, not poo pooing anything, but a few comments or suggestions:

I've already mentioned screen resolution as what I think might help with some of this stuff.

Larger AND Resizable dialogues !! That would be cool. I wonder if Ralph could get the program to remember the box sizes. Windows hasn't been able to do this, lol.

"This is the situation briefing button. Click here to see situation briefing."

[The crowd stand and applauds]. Spot on with this one, its tiny and embarrassingly redundant. Fix it !!

The terrain in the Unit Display is beyond assisting me. I've seen some UI Mods omit it. No loss to me.

Agreed that the button box is better across the top of the screen. That would be at least like something from 1995.

Stacks of units can be seen by hitting the 'C' hotkey. I don't ever cycle thru stacks at the top right though, so this may not be what you mean.

I don't agree with making the Mini Map a separate pop up. I need to see them both at the same time, a lot. I use it extensively in the large scenarios so I would cry foul if it weren't right there. But how cool would it be if you could drag it to the bottom and then click to pop it up when you wanted it ?

[sPzAbt653]

Alright then, I'm off to find some screen shots of Tiller's Panzer Campaigns !!

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
Alright then, I'm off to find some screen shots of Tiller's Panzer Campaigns !!

Don't bother, I'll try to post some later today. Again, its UI is certainly nothing fancy, but for me any way it is generally pretty functional (other than hotkeys).

[76mm]

Here is a basic screenshot, reduced in size, hopefully still clear enough. The panel on the left is custom, and shows all of the hotkeys I use. Interface buttons along the top. Terrain info top left.


Here is a screenshot where I've selected a stack of German units--unit info listed in left panel, can get additional unit info (parent, grand-parent units, range, etc.) by right clicking.


Also, the "strategic map" takes up about 20% of the map area and can be moved around, closed/opened with a hotkey, etc. For me anyway, this is better than the postage-stamp sized map used by TOAW.

[simcityrefund]

AS a young gamer (under 25) this colorful interface is good! But more importantly I want an improve UI those button on the side panel I have no idea what they are until I hover my mouse on It they should be made into TABS or color coded of what buttons do what so i could directly point towards the correct button instead of trying to grope my way to it

[76mm]

One other thing to fix: the unit database...

I usually only play WWII east front so figured that I could create a custom data base with only the relevant units. Nope--whenever I deleted modern or British units, for example, the database would simply add back random units until all of the deleted units had been replaced--finally someone on this forum told me that the database had to have a certain number of entries, and if it didn't have them it would go find them... Very odd. This was another thing that drove me crazy about the scenario editor--wading through hundreds/thousands of types of units that I did not and would not ever need.

[sPzAbt653]

@Erick - Great to hear from a younger gamer ! But in reference to this :

those button on the side panel I have no idea what they are until I hover my mouse on It they should be made into TABS or color coded of what buttons do what so i could directly point towards the correct button instead of trying to grope my way to it

I fail to see how tabs or colored buttons would make it more obvious than the mouse overs. What I mean is, for example, looking at the screen shots that 76mm posted, I have no idea what all those buttons at the top are for and no tab or different color is going to help me. The mouse overs are the only way !?!

And while talking about mouse overs, please do not turn them into pop-ups that float over the target. My software for work did this and it is nothing but still aggravating years later. TOAW has a quick mouse over with a full [tiny] explanation for each button to be seen in the same place each time.

[sPzAbt653]

Thanks for the screenshots Tom !

I see the point about buttons across the top and an ambidextrous side bar. Viewing a stack in the side bar might not be doable as TOAW can have nine units in a stack. For the mini-map I guess the optimal function would be floating or locked on sidebar, user choice.

[sPzAbt653]

And for my archaic screenshot, here is one from around 1990, a DOS game called V4V. Even at that early stage they had some good ideas. With the HUGE buttons across the top, the player could change the display in the bottom and side bars. Yes, multi-functional side and bottom bars. Now this wouldn't work for some of TOAW's functions as they are too large to display in those areas. Separate Dialogues are unavoidable in some cases. But if Matrix is overhauling this stuff, it should be the best ideas for the best functionality for the best game. Ha.

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
Viewing a stack in the side bar might not be doable as TOAW can have nine units in a stack.

Panzer campaigns can also have many units in a stack--remember when I asked for scroll bars? [:D]

Also, I think that some color-coding or something might be helpful with the command buttons--maybe one color for map-related commands, one for unit-related commands, etc, but primary reliance would fall to tool-tips--what do you mean by pop-ups?

[sPzAbt653]

One other thing to fix: the unit database...

Yeah, Bio-Ed is an outside program used to edit the equipment database, TOAW has no such function. Using the Bio-Ed is another step on the TOAW Ladder to Heaven [long climb]. You should only Replace an entry, never delete one. And it has been done several times but its not easy, but can be very rewarding !

That said since TOAW has no such function, I wouldn't expect any change there. Wait ... scratch that ... I DO expect a change as this is the best game out there and how can it be the best if we can't limit or change the menu ?

[sPzAbt653]

Panzer campaigns can also have many units in a stack--remember when I asked for scroll bars?

Ahhh !! But as I am anti-scroll bar [along with anti-png] I will be the devil again and say that scroll bars for limited traverse are useless and take up too much room. Looking at the screen shot you posted I would suggest that a small triangle at the upper and lower corners could function much better. Left click advances up or down one unit, right click advances up or down one page. How many units can you have in a stack ? Surely not hundreds ??

Now for a scenario with 10,000 events, or 20,000 units, ok a scroll bar for those dialogues, but not for every box.

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
I DO expect a change as this is the best game out there and how can it be the best if we can't limit or change the menu

I understand why some game designers lock the unit database to prevent tampering with game data, but at least give us a functional filter so that we don't have to scroll through T-80s and BMDs (and dozens of other units, formations, weapons, vehicles, etc.) if we're only interested in 1941...

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
Now for a scenario with 10,000 events, or 20,000 units, ok a scroll bar for those dialogues, but not for every box.

Yeah, sure, I was mainly thinking about for scenario selection. And actually, I'm not sure at this point but the PzC titles might also use arrows to cycle through units in big stacks. The number of units in a stack depends on how many men are in a unit, I've probably had up to about 20 units in a stack for beat-down units.

[sPzAbt653]

Also, I think that some color-coding or something might be helpful with the command buttons--maybe one color for map-related commands, one for unit-related commands, etc, but primary reliance would fall to tool-tips--

Well yeah ok, great idea. But let me be the devil again, rather to place the buttons across a top bar [freeing room on the side bar for other stuff] and group the buttons with small spaces in between. That way the player could at a glance see - first group of 11 buttons for map functions - second group of 5 buttons for unit and formation functions - third group of 5 buttons for briefings - fourth group of 4 buttons for news, reinforcements and replacements - last group of 3 buttons for those three that are left. Something like that. Groups I can understand, colors not so much. Remember, not all of us see colors the same.