NON-PH Openings

[leehunt27@bloomberg.net]

Don't forget a second day of attacks at PH can finish off some BB's and other ships....

[Erkki]

ORIGINAL: leehunt27@bloomberg.net

Don't forget a second day of attacks at PH can finish off some BB's and other ships....

Yes... Except when they dont, but 40 planes more are lost. With the flak changes especially PH is one huge flak trap where planes keep getting killed, missing with their ordnance and hit targets sit on a drydock and massed nav supply.

(yeah Im biased)

[Jorge_Stanbury]

ORIGINAL: Amoral

On turn 1 Manilla only has 6 AA guns with a ceiling above 3500ft. Your 2E bombers should come in at 4000 ft.

But if they come at 4,000 feet, then they will be using low ground skill; and AFAIK most pilots are not well trained in it on December 41

Have you tested that results are better?

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

ORIGINAL: Amoral

On turn 1 Manilla only has 6 AA guns with a ceiling above 3500ft. Your 2E bombers should come in at 4000 ft.

But if they come at 4,000 feet, then they will be using low ground skill; and AFAIK most pilots are not well trained in it on December 41

Have you tested that results are better?

They will still be using Ground skill. They do not use Low Ground until they are down under 2000 feet - namely, not until at 1000 feet.

This was a change in one of the earlier betas, and is now in the latest official.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: rustysi

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

In my current PBEM and AAR, Chickenboy sank all 26 submarines at Manila on turn 1 with KB and LBA port attacks.

That's who it was.[:D]

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: leehunt27@bloomberg.net

Don't forget a second day of attacks at PH can finish off some BB's and other ships....

I'd trade 3-4 PH BBs for Sara. Not in terms of VPs, but for utility.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

I've not ran the numbers to see if it's even a possibility, but how's this for tinfoil ideas: sending the KB to the US West Coast for a strategic bombing spree.

The attraction of Pearl is the VP's from the battleships, but you need to get very lucky to sink them all so it's better to sink them when they're out in the open.

The attraction of Manila is the subs, but with a over-concentration of bombers on Formosa you can sink or damage a significant portion of the Asiatic Fleet.

The KB could turn up off LA, sink the Saratoga in San Deigo, firebomb everything in sight and sail away westwards the following turn.

Alternatively, turn up off Seattle and firebomb everything in range. Sink the Warspite and Colorado in Seattle harbor and bomb Seattle, Tacoma and Portland from low altitude. Day two, hit the Canadian manpower centers - the West Coast US fighters can only rebase as far as Seattle.

My current opponent appeared off San Diego on Dec. 7 and sank Saratoga at the pier. Also a bunch of other stuff, plus deep damage to the shipyard. Far worse than a PH attack. He also hit Manila and got over a dozen subs plus the tenders, ARD, oilers, and the DDs. Then took out Soerbaja in the first two weeks and a bunch of fleeing and repairing ships. Combined with a perfect stopping-up of every escape route out of the central toilet bowl and it was the most vicious first month I've ever seen. Jan 10 and I'm down 250 ships.

I don't get it - I recall there being a range limit on the 'magic move'???

Separate comment: one thing less often mentioned in a no-PH strike opening is the preservation of so many wonderful USN PBY types. Makes a big difference in the early months. Typically there are loads of them destroyed on the ground.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

I've not ran the numbers to see if it's even a possibility, but how's this for tinfoil ideas: sending the KB to the US West Coast for a strategic bombing spree.

The attraction of Pearl is the VP's from the battleships, but you need to get very lucky to sink them all so it's better to sink them when they're out in the open.

The attraction of Manila is the subs, but with a over-concentration of bombers on Formosa you can sink or damage a significant portion of the Asiatic Fleet.

The KB could turn up off LA, sink the Saratoga in San Deigo, firebomb everything in sight and sail away westwards the following turn.

Alternatively, turn up off Seattle and firebomb everything in range. Sink the Warspite and Colorado in Seattle harbor and bomb Seattle, Tacoma and Portland from low altitude. Day two, hit the Canadian manpower centers - the West Coast US fighters can only rebase as far as Seattle.

My current opponent appeared off San Diego on Dec. 7 and sank Saratoga at the pier. Also a bunch of other stuff, plus deep damage to the shipyard. Far worse than a PH attack. He also hit Manila and got over a dozen subs plus the tenders, ARD, oilers, and the DDs. Then took out Soerbaja in the first two weeks and a bunch of fleeing and repairing ships. Combined with a perfect stopping-up of every escape route out of the central toilet bowl and it was the most vicious first month I've ever seen. Jan 10 and I'm down 250 ships.

I don't get it - I recall there being a range limit on the 'magic move'???

Separate comment: one thing less often mentioned in a no-PH strike opening is the preservation of so many wonderful USN PBY types. Makes a big difference in the early months. Typically there are loads of them destroyed on the ground.

Hrm, let's see...

KB starts at Etorofu. Straight range across the map to San Diego is 112 hexes. If we are looking at 20* normal movement for one phase, this is well within the limit: KB can go 8 hexes per phase at full speed (which is sometimes used for mission speed). I would still set full speed if I were the opponent, as it seems that TFs don't use 20 times the fuel on these magic moves. They are, after all, magical.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: witpqs
one thing less often mentioned in a no-PH strike opening is the preservation of so many wonderful USN PBY types. Makes a big difference in the early months. Typically there are loads of them destroyed on the ground.

This is true. My one regret for not banging on PH preferentially.

However, the trade off is that I lose zip diddly carrier strike aircraft attacking Manila harbor on day 1 versus PH on day 1. That airfield FLAK over PH makes a big difference. Losing 29 (historical) KB pilots versus a veritable handful with a reinforced Manila strike is a counter consideration.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: witpqs
one thing less often mentioned in a no-PH strike opening is the preservation of so many wonderful USN PBY types. Makes a big difference in the early months. Typically there are loads of them destroyed on the ground.

This is true. My one regret for not banging on PH preferentially.

However, the trade off is that I lose zip diddly carrier strike aircraft attacking Manila harbor on day 1 versus PH on day 1. That airfield FLAK over PH makes a big difference. Losing 29 (historical) KB pilots versus a veritable handful with a reinforced Manila strike is a counter consideration.

Second day strike at Pearl is when flak really starts to hurt!

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: witpqs
one thing less often mentioned in a no-PH strike opening is the preservation of so many wonderful USN PBY types. Makes a big difference in the early months. Typically there are loads of them destroyed on the ground.

This is true. My one regret for not banging on PH preferentially.

However, the trade off is that I lose zip diddly carrier strike aircraft attacking Manila harbor on day 1 versus PH on day 1. That airfield FLAK over PH makes a big difference. Losing 29 (historical) KB pilots versus a veritable handful with a reinforced Manila strike is a counter consideration.

Second day strike at Pearl is when flak really starts to hurt!

Yes. Imagine losing 40+ more than the historical 29 lost on day 1. KB down by 70 planes? Ouch!

[Disco Duck]

To the People who have defended a non-PH attack:
Do you try to hold Wake? Just curious.

[witpqs]

No. The balance of power being what it is at scenario start, it's just not practical. Striking at Imperial forces landing there is often possible, though.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Disco Duck

To the People who have defended a non-PH attack:
Do you try to hold Wake? Just curious.

I couldn't hold Midway. Wake is a pipedream.

[Feltan]

So I always play with a historical first turn.  I am not opposed to the "what if" factor, but ......
 
The Japanese had every reason to believe they would get the carriers in harbor on 07 Dec when they sailed from home waters.  They didn't sail with the intent of sinking a bunch of obsolete BB's, although at the time that was indeed a worthy secondary goal.  They wanted the flat tops; they planned for it.
 
What would everyone do if there was, say, a 50/50 chance that the historical first turn would find the carriers at anchor in Pearl?  Would you roll the dice and go for Pearl, or would you strike San Diego (only to find the single carrier had left a few days earlier), or Manila (only to find the SS's gone due a War Warning that was actually heeded).
 
There are so many factors and what-if's that, for me, the historical first turn puts you in the seat of the Japanese or Allies on the morning of 08 Dec with some degree of accuracy.  There are too many permutations of fantasy for an alternate strike plan on 07 Dec to make it enjoyable for me.
 
Regards,
Feltan

[Mundy]

I've never been convinced that Manila is worthy of KB's attention at the start. There's about 28 subs there, most of them S-boats. Granted the Mk 10 torpedo is nice to have at the start. The thing is within a year, the USN will be swimming in subs, and then it's in overdrive by mid-43.

Cannonfodder went this route in our game, but methinks what he sunk there was really only a bonus, since KB was busy covering the Singapore and DEI op, which did do him well. At Manila though, I probably only lost 6-8 subs out of the deal.

[Jorge_Stanbury]

ORIGINAL: Disco Duck

To the People who have defended a non-PH attack:
Do you try to hold Wake? Just curious.

Not hold Wake, but certainly I would evacuate as many troops that I can; there are some Wildcats there that come handy.

Also, if I confirm the KB is in South China sea, I would go aggresive with the USN carriers; not to stop, but delay as many invasions as I could in the South West Pacific

[Amoral]

ORIGINAL: Feltan

So I always play with a historical first turn.  I am not opposed to the "what if" factor, but ......

The Japanese had every reason to believe they would get the carriers in harbor on 07 Dec when they sailed from home waters.  They didn't sail with the intent of sinking a bunch of obsolete BB's, although at the time that was indeed a worthy secondary goal.  They wanted the flat tops; they planned for it.

What would everyone do if there was, say, a 50/50 chance that the historical first turn would find the carriers at anchor in Pearl?  Would you roll the dice and go for Pearl, or would you strike San Diego (only to find the single carrier had left a few days earlier), or Manila (only to find the SS's gone due a War Warning that was actually heeded).

There are so many factors and what-if's that, for me, the historical first turn puts you in the seat of the Japanese or Allies on the morning of 08 Dec with some degree of accuracy.  There are too many permutations of fantasy for an alternate strike plan on 07 Dec to make it enjoyable for me.

Regards,
Feltan

Carriers at pearl is certainly an interesting what if. But in a PBEM doesn't it place too much weight on a first turn coin flip?

[Feltan]

ORIGINAL: Amoral

ORIGINAL: Feltan

So I always play with a historical first turn.  I am not opposed to the "what if" factor, but ......

The Japanese had every reason to believe they would get the carriers in harbor on 07 Dec when they sailed from home waters.  They didn't sail with the intent of sinking a bunch of obsolete BB's, although at the time that was indeed a worthy secondary goal.  They wanted the flat tops; they planned for it.

What would everyone do if there was, say, a 50/50 chance that the historical first turn would find the carriers at anchor in Pearl?  Would you roll the dice and go for Pearl, or would you strike San Diego (only to find the single carrier had left a few days earlier), or Manila (only to find the SS's gone due a War Warning that was actually heeded).

There are so many factors and what-if's that, for me, the historical first turn puts you in the seat of the Japanese or Allies on the morning of 08 Dec with some degree of accuracy.  There are too many permutations of fantasy for an alternate strike plan on 07 Dec to make it enjoyable for me.

Regards,
Feltan

Carriers at pearl is certainly an interesting what if. But in a PBEM doesn't it place too much weight on a first turn coin flip?

Amoral,

You are correct. I offered the notion more as rationale for playing the historical first turn. Given the facts on the ground to the Japanese at the time, NOT attacking Pearl would have been silly. If they believed, which they did, that the carriers would be there .... how on earth could you justify going for subs at Manila?

Regards,
Feltan

[rustysi]

ORIGINAL: Feltan

ORIGINAL: Amoral

ORIGINAL: Feltan

So I always play with a historical first turn.  I am not opposed to the "what if" factor, but ......

The Japanese had every reason to believe they would get the carriers in harbor on 07 Dec when they sailed from home waters.  They didn't sail with the intent of sinking a bunch of obsolete BB's, although at the time that was indeed a worthy secondary goal.  They wanted the flat tops; they planned for it.

What would everyone do if there was, say, a 50/50 chance that the historical first turn would find the carriers at anchor in Pearl?  Would you roll the dice and go for Pearl, or would you strike San Diego (only to find the single carrier had left a few days earlier), or Manila (only to find the SS's gone due a War Warning that was actually heeded).

There are so many factors and what-if's that, for me, the historical first turn puts you in the seat of the Japanese or Allies on the morning of 08 Dec with some degree of accuracy.  There are too many permutations of fantasy for an alternate strike plan on 07 Dec to make it enjoyable for me.

Regards,
Feltan

Carriers at pearl is certainly an interesting what if. But in a PBEM doesn't it place too much weight on a first turn coin flip?

Amoral,

You are correct. I offered the notion more as rationale for playing the historical first turn. Given the facts on the ground to the Japanese at the time, NOT attacking Pearl would have been silly. If they believed, which they did, that the carriers would be there .... how on earth could you justify going for subs at Manila?

Regards,
Feltan

I too prefer an historical first, and like this line of reasoning.