NON-PH Openings

[Coach Zuck]

Been "sandboxing" ideas of Non-PH Openings.

How many Subs do people typically sink with All their Betty & Nell units striking @ Manila?

If you add carriers from the KB how does this affect it?

[Jorge_Stanbury]

My opponent tried a 4 carrier PH while Kaga, Akagi and all Takao LBAs pounded Manila

My Manila losses were:
7 boats sunk: 4 "Fleet", 3 "S"
5 boats severly damaged; I don't remember how many managed to reach Java
8 more with high float damage that although were not at high risk of sinking, they had to go to Java for repairs
I also lost AV Langley and some auxiliaries.

I started the war with only 7 boats (all fleet) available. This with 2 fleet carriers + LBAs attacking Manila... I guess with all 6 KB carriers I most likely would had lost a lot more

[SqzMyLemon]

In my current PBEM and AAR, Chickenboy sank all 26 submarines at Manila on turn 1 with KB and LBA port attacks.

[rustysi]

I was reading an AAR a while back where someone used a full KB strike in this manner and sunk most of the Manila subs. Can't find it though, and don't recall who it was. Maybe he'll chime in and say. Otherwise I'd just give it a couple of go's and see what happens. Personally I prefer to play an historic first turn, and I've only played the AI as Japan so far.

[rustysi]

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

In my current PBEM and AAR, Chickenboy sank all 26 submarines at Manila on turn 1 with KB and LBA port attacks.

That's who it was.[:D]

[dr.hal]

I feel as if the KB is obligated by game design to concentrate on the BBs at Pearl, when in truth they are much better targets while at sea, IF they dare go there in the early days of the war. So I've concentrated on Manila with the entire KB. I believe it was very effective and decimated the Far East sub fleet along with other critical auxiliaries (especially AS types). But what's more important than the immediate results is the simple fact that the KB is NOT weeks away from the action, indeed it is right in the middle of it off Manila and can head south immediately to aid in the collapse of the Malaysian Peninsular. Getting back from Pearl takes too long and being in South Asia is right where you want to be.... Hal

[desicat]

Coach, I know you have seen this but this is for anyone else curious. A superior opening IMHO.

A Road Less Travelled

[Coach Zuck]

ORIGINAL: desicat

Coach, I know you have seen this but this is for anyone else curious. A superior opening IMHO.

A Road Less Travelled

Thanks desicat, but yes I have.
Trying to recreate his approach and not having anywhere near his success.
I have used all the Betty & Nell's on Formosa & 2-4 carriers of the KB and have only sunk 7 and heavily damaged 5 - my best results.

Typically only sink 5 and heavily damage 6/7.

[leehunt27@bloomberg.net]

Those old American BB's at PH are still very useful, and arguably a worthy target. A skilled Allied player (like my current opponent) who uses them right can cause a lot more agony than those subs!

[Insano]

I also recommend the Manila port strike opening. My results with all 6 carriers of the KB:
14 SS sunk
6 heavy damage
2 others hit
5 subs not hit

I had some aircraft on airfield attack which stupidly diluted my strike against the primary target (the submarines). If I had it to do over I would put every plane that would reach on port strike and just deal with the consequences of having those allied airbases and aircraft active from turn 2 on. And I mean everything - Sallies at extended range, Lillies with 100kg bombs if they'll reach, etc.

[Insano]

ORIGINAL: Insano

I also recommend the Manila port strike opening. My results with all 6 carriers of the KB:
14 SS sunk
6 heavy damage
2 others hit
5 subs not hit

I had some aircraft on airfield attack which stupidly diluted my strike against the primary target (the submarines). If I had it to do over I would put every plane that would reach on port strike and just deal with the consequences of having those allied airbases and aircraft active from turn 2 on. And I mean everything - Sallies at extended range, Lillies with 100kg bombs if they'll reach, etc.

I just looked it up because I didn't remember: There are 18 Sallies at Takao that will just barely reach at maximum range (half bomb load). The 27 Lillies won't reach - they are one hex short. Still, I'll take the 36 x 250kg more chances to hit a sub!

[Jorge_Stanbury]

I'm not that convinced that 10 or so submarines have the same value of 2 battleships sunk + few knocked out for a year

For the next year and 1/2 the dud rate will make fleet submarines almost useles, while S boat's limited range and small torpedoes will also make them of marginal value.
Manila auxiliaries can still be intercepted by cvl ryujo + cruisers at Palau. In my pbem game I Iost all the manila auxiliaries and 10 submarines and I am really not missing them. There are plenty replacements

And KB at Malaya welcomed but not necesarily needed unless you plan mersing on 1 st turn or other historically dubious deep invasions using magic first turn

[dr.hal]

I didn't mean to imply that the older US BBs (and the UK's older BBs as well) don't have their uses. Of course they do, the actual events in the Pacific prove that many times over. My point is that it would be far better for the Japanese player to sink them at sea where they can not be brought back to life in a year or so. These type of ships are extremely vulnerable to torpedo attacks as their internal water tight integrity is not nearly that of the post World War 1 type BBs. Given their lack of ability to maneuver they are almost "sitting ducks" if they are caught at sea by a Japanese sub. An attack on Manila is also a long term strategy. Those subs stationed there are pretty useless given the US torpedo situation (but they still can provide valuable intelligence!), however in the last two years of the war, those subs eliminated at Manila will be of benefit to the Japanese player once the US torpedoes come back to life. Also don't forget that the "S" class DO have good (relatively speaking) torpedoes (the Mk 10s) and thus need to be nipped in the bud so to speak as well.

[SqzMyLemon]

I think the biggest impact for losing the Manila submarine force is the lack of intelligence they can provide in 1942. I don't sweat the lost torpedo platforms beyond 1943, but I will miss the intelligence and pucker factor a large number of submarines can cause for a roaming KB.

I think there are merits to a KB Manila strike, but I think the loss of the submarines can be offset with prudent use of the old BB's.

[Erkki]

I will rather play December 8th start than try my luck at PH again; twice now zero sunk BBs and massive aircraft losses. And B5Ns refusing to use torpedoes and once some groups didnt even fly. But when it comes to Manile, I think I've managed to bag all or all but one of the subs at Manila twice now. KB+Formosa's bombers including Ki-21s flying at extended range, thats a lot of damage and also will delay forts building should Allies want to stay there instead of withdrawing to Bataan.

Even if some subs dont die right away those that can still move may hit mines or get sunk by other means on their way out or they will be bombed at their destination yards on Java or at Singapore. I've also seen them scuttled at bases falling to the IJ; probably they had suffered more damage and were still in too bad shape to move after 2-3 weeks.

[mind_messing]

I've not ran the numbers to see if it's even a possibility, but how's this for tinfoil ideas: sending the KB to the US West Coast for a strategic bombing spree.

The attraction of Pearl is the VP's from the battleships, but you need to get very lucky to sink them all so it's better to sink them when they're out in the open.

The attraction of Manila is the subs, but with a over-concentration of bombers on Formosa you can sink or damage a significant portion of the Asiatic Fleet.

The KB could turn up off LA, sink the Saratoga in San Deigo, firebomb everything in sight and sail away westwards the following turn.

Alternatively, turn up off Seattle and firebomb everything in range. Sink the Warspite and Colorado in Seattle harbor and bomb Seattle, Tacoma and Portland from low altitude. Day two, hit the Canadian manpower centers - the West Coast US fighters can only rebase as far as Seattle.

[Amoral]

On turn 1 Manilla only has 6 AA guns with a ceiling above 3500ft. Your 2E bombers should come in at 4000 ft.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

I've not ran the numbers to see if it's even a possibility, but how's this for tinfoil ideas: sending the KB to the US West Coast for a strategic bombing spree.

The attraction of Pearl is the VP's from the battleships, but you need to get very lucky to sink them all so it's better to sink them when they're out in the open.

The attraction of Manila is the subs, but with a over-concentration of bombers on Formosa you can sink or damage a significant portion of the Asiatic Fleet.

The KB could turn up off LA, sink the Saratoga in San Deigo, firebomb everything in sight and sail away westwards the following turn.

Alternatively, turn up off Seattle and firebomb everything in range. Sink the Warspite and Colorado in Seattle harbor and bomb Seattle, Tacoma and Portland from low altitude. Day two, hit the Canadian manpower centers - the West Coast US fighters can only rebase as far as Seattle.

My current opponent appeared off San Diego on Dec. 7 and sank Saratoga at the pier. Also a bunch of other stuff, plus deep damage to the shipyard. Far worse than a PH attack. He also hit Manila and got over a dozen subs plus the tenders, ARD, oilers, and the DDs. Then took out Soerbaja in the first two weeks and a bunch of fleeing and repairing ships. Combined with a perfect stopping-up of every escape route out of the central toilet bowl and it was the most vicious first month I've ever seen. Jan 10 and I'm down 250 ships.

[dr.hal]

Would it actually be possible for the KB to sneak up on the West Coast like that? Certainly commercial shipping would have raised the alarm if not the USN. One of the reasons the Japs took the northern route to Pearl was to stay away from commercial traffic and thus preserve surprise.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

Would it actually be possible for the KB to sneak up on the West Coast like that? Certainly commercial shipping would have raised the alarm if not the USN. One of the reasons the Japs took the northern route to Pearl was to stay away from commercial traffic and thus preserve surprise.

Probably not possible in RL. But I play no HRs and play the code.

It's no fun.

But I've played 1943 in PBEM and my opponent has not. [8D]