A Grey Steppe Eagle (loki100 vs Vigabrand)

Post descriptions of your brilliant victories and unfortunate defeats here.

Moderators: Joel Billings, Sabre21

User avatar
loki100
Posts: 11705
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2012 12:38 pm
Location: Utlima Thule

RE: Turn 34: 5-11 February 1942

Post by loki100 »

ORIGINAL: chaos45

No lvov pocket is a tough road for a german player IMO- it pretty much means you wont get the Soviet industry almost at all. Would say if you went with no Lvov pocket the Soviet should have to give something elsewhere like a reduction in transportation or something.

Because the Germans just cant tear through all those soviet units fast enough- historical yes....but early in the game time and speed is the Germans only allies as you dont want to get bogged down unless your encircling lots of Soviets.

As to air dropped fuel ya im having the same issues in my game not getting near enough airdropped lol.

I agree its set off problems that neither of us expected due to the lack of FBD5.

In return I agreed to no +1/mild winter and also both not to strip the Ukraine to reinforce Moscow/Leningrad and to fight rather than run. The latter is of course impossible to estimate if it happened or not but its the reason for the loss of an army at Kiev and why SW Front was down to 4 rifle divisions, the para brigades and a handful of unusable tank divisions by August.

I've also not done any paradrops, so there are some balances in there - probably not enough but that is a regular problem with WiTE. As I've argued quite a few times, I don't think its unrealistically unbalanced, just it tends to have a lot of 'rich get richer' mechanisms and relative few to dampen this trend.

My last game with SigUp, at this stage, looked fine, going into the summer of 1942 with us both having problems but with the potential for a decent game. By the end of the summer combination of the new supply/HI rules and the impact of Soviet morale at 95% (ie my summer morale was 38) meant the game had spiralled out of control and little point to carrying on.
swkuh
Posts: 1034
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2009 9:10 pm

RE: Turn 34: 5-11 February 1942

Post by swkuh »

Great AAR, thanks all commentarians.
User avatar
VigaBrand
Posts: 303
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2014 3:51 pm
Location: Germany
Contact:

RE: Turn 34: 5-11 February 1942

Post by VigaBrand »

@Loki: I'm fine with every decision we made and with our game. There are a lot of hexes on the way to Berlin. [:)]


User avatar
loki100
Posts: 11705
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2012 12:38 pm
Location: Utlima Thule

RE: Turn 34: 5-11 February 1942

Post by loki100 »

ORIGINAL: VigaBrand

.... There are a lot of hexes on the way to Berlin. [:)]

there are indeed, and its getting further every turn at the moment [;)]
User avatar
loki100
Posts: 11705
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2012 12:38 pm
Location: Utlima Thule

Turn 35: 12-18 February 1942

Post by loki100 »

Turn 35: 12-18 February 1942

The pattern of localised German counterattacks followed by sustained Soviet pressure continued into mid-February. German operations were eased by the improving weather as the blizzards of recent weeks lifted.

In particular 3 and 47 Panzer Corps struck at Bryansk and South West Fronts in an attempt to stem the Soviet drive on Chernigov and Gomel.

Despite these setbacks, a substantial number of divisions were promoted to Guards status as a reward for the recent victories

Image

For the first time in a month, the Volkhov sector saw action as 33 Army tried to turn the northern flank of the Finnish defensive line.

Image

In the centre, 40 Army recovered from its battering at the start of the week and, yet again, cut the line of retreat for the German units trying to evade Soviet spearheads.

This time, Stavka opted to first break their pocket into two and then over-run the demoralised Germans. Again the Soviet encirclement was too weak to contain the panic stricken German formations. In a sequence of vicious battles, both sides suffered heavy losses but the Germans were forced to abandon substantial amounts of artillery [1].

Image

At the same time 4 Army hit the exposed 17 Panzer Division from 47 Panzer Corps. Badly extended as a result of their earlier counter-attack, the Germans were unable to cope with the mobile tactics adopted by the Soviet cavalry and tank forces.

Image

Image

Image
(Soviet Cavalry and T-60s of 4 Army in action)

Elsewhere fighting was more intermittent. In the Dneipr bend, Soviet formations were exhausted from their earlier victories and stiffening German resistance meant that many attacks failed and there was little sustained pressure. At Orsha, Kalinin Front followed up the retreating Germans cautiously as Koniev was worried about his southern flank as long as Volkhov and Western Fronts were tangled up in German resistance to the east of the Dneipr.

[1] – part of the reason for the shift in my tactics is a gamble that I just might be able to reach Gomel and secure my defensive lines on the Dneipr.

Losses for both sides remained heavy. The Germans lost 26,000 men (4,000 killed or taken prisoner) and 80 tanks and Soviet losses were 47,000 men (9,000 killed) and 330 tanks.
User avatar
loki100
Posts: 11705
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2012 12:38 pm
Location: Utlima Thule

Turns 36-37: 19 February – 4 March 1942

Post by loki100 »

Turns 36-37: 19 February – 4 March 1942

The final weeks of February saw both armies trade limited blows in a few sectors but across most of the front major operations ceased. However, two sectors saw substantial fighting.

The period from 20-25 February saw a major offensive by the Volkhov front in an attempt to cut the German supply lines to Gomel. When it was clear the German defences were too strong this was abandoned in early March.

In the north Stavka decided to try to improve its positions with the plan of a summer attack to liberate Leningrad.

Image
(Soviet artillery in action on 33 Army sector)

For the last 3 weeks this sector had been subjected to a major campaign by the U2s flying night harrassment missions and the end of February saw a massive Soviet offensive against the Finns. Having recaptured Kobona the previous week, 33 Army struck at the Finns driving them back.

With their flanks disrupted, the 7th Finnish Division was then forced to fall back giving the Soviets a substantial bridgehead over the Volkhov and able to repair the train lines to enable a build up for a later offensive.

Image

Fighting in the north was to carry on for the next few weeks but 4 March should be seen as the natural end to the Soviet winter offensive. In places Stavka reluctantly ordered over-exposed formations to pull back and elite formations were placed into reserve and their place in the front line taken by units that had seen little combat in winter.

Fierce debates raged in the highest echelons of the Soviet command as to the threat the Germans still posed, where they might attack and how best to re-organise the Soviet forces for the summer battles.

OOB

At the end of winter, the respective strength of the main armies was;

Image

Slowly the Red Army was not just growing in size, and adding a number of formations awarded Guards status as a result of their prowess on the battlefield[1], it was modernising.

It now deployed over 6,300 tanks. Of these, 1430 were light tanks, 1630 medium tanks and 700 heavy tanks. The balance were a collection of pre-war BT and T-26 style AFVs assigned to infantry and cavalry support roles.

Image

The bulk of the armour was still based on pre-war models, but slowly production of T-34s, KV-1s and T-60s was improving and some lend-lease armour was proving to be valuable.

The VVS had managed to replace most of the pre-war planes. The 2,700 fighters and fighter-bombers were mostly Yak-1s and LaGG-3s. US and British lend lease planes were starting to prove their worth. The bombers were still mostly pre-war level bombers as production of Il-2s had been badly disrupted in 1941. In addition, the number of reconnaissance and transport planes was slowly increasing.

Image
(should note that about 200 of the Migs are actually bombers as are about 100 of the LaGG and Hurricanes).

Image
(Lend-lease Hurricane)

[2]

Casualties

The offensive had exceeded initial Soviet expectations in terms of the amount of ground retaken. Cities such as Smolensk, Bryansk and Dnepropetrovsk were back under Soviet control. Equally the threat to major industrial centres in the Dombas, at Kharkov and to Moscow itself had been reduced.

Although the Germans had opted to remove their armoured formations from the front line, they, and their allies had suffered substantial damage in the 4 months of sustained fighting.

Total losses
Image

German losses:

Image

I've indicated the lines where German losses have been particularly heavy. No real idea as to the importance of any of those but the battering of their cavalry fits the pattern of fighting. They've also lost a lot of support squads but I presume those can be easily made up from Hiwis.

Finnish losses:

Image

I've been deliberately targeting the Finns as my logic is even if I lost the battle badly of all the axis nations they are the one least able to replace their losses.

No real point reporting Italian or Hungarian losses as they were relatively untouched by the fighting.

Romanian losses:

Image

Think I've done a good job on battering the Romanians, I can't see them contributing very much to the axis 1942 offensive.

Slovakian losses:

Image

While a very minor part of their forces, these took the brunt of my offensive around Kursk.

Soviet losses:

Image

I've not shown all the lines for the Soviets. Its re-assuring to see that the bulk of my 3,000 tank losses were in T-26. T-38 and BT-7 models that are obsolete. Like the Germans my cavalry has taken a huge battering but I think my ability to recover those losses is much more substantial.

[1] – latest round of Gds

Image

[2] – note for all these numbers, these are the planes deployed on map. The reserve is stuffed full of pre-war rubbish and most I'll let the auto-upgrade routine swap over as Yak-7Bs and La-5s become available in the summer.

User avatar
Peltonx
Posts: 5814
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2006 2:24 am
Contact:

RE: Turns 36-37: 19 February – 4 March 1942

Post by Peltonx »

Great AAR as always.

Can we get a picture of front lines with or without units works.

Thanks
Beta Tester WitW & WitE
User avatar
loki100
Posts: 11705
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2012 12:38 pm
Location: Utlima Thule

RE: Turns 36-37: 19 February – 4 March 1942

Post by loki100 »

ORIGINAL: Pelton

Great AAR as always.

Can we get a picture of front lines with or without units works.

Thanks

thanks

overview in the next post, near to the end of March. We both took a rest, I didn't want to risk my hard won morale and Gds gains by pushing too hard and it seemed as if Vigabrand is saving his armour for the summer
User avatar
loki100
Posts: 11705
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2012 12:38 pm
Location: Utlima Thule

Turns 38-41: 5 March – 25 March 1942

Post by loki100 »

Turns 38-41: 5 March – 25 March 1942

For these three weeks both armies redeployed for the summer battles. Stavka reluctantly gave up some recent gains in order to shorten the front line and release formations into reserve.

The only sustained fighting was in the north where Leningrad Front initially made some gains against the Finns but was forced back when the Germans committed their 57 Panzer Corps.

Image

This struck back at the Soviet spearheads and the Front went over to the defensive. Recent gains, if they could be held, offered a valuable basis for a summer offensive.

Image

Difference between 'strategic' and Stavka reserve is that the Stavka reserve consists of units grouped into armies but not allocated to a combat front. The strategic reserve is made up of units with no command designation apart from one of the two Urals MD.
Matnjord
Posts: 24
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2015 3:43 pm

RE: Turns 38-41: 5 March – 25 March 1942

Post by Matnjord »

Time to hunker down and wait for the hammerfall then. It was a wild ride and you certainly seem in a good position to my untrained eye. Moscow is all but impregnable, especially considering the battering the German rifle divisions have taken in this sector, and Stalingrad is so far from the frontlines that I doubt it's at risk. With all that breathing space you've gained for yourself it seems unlikely the Heer will be able to seriously damage you since you can just retreat at will. This is gonna be an interesting summer for sure, what with the intact Panzerwaffe and Luftwaffe and your 60 guard divisions. Good luck with guessing where he will strike and on your counteroffensive. For the Rodina!
chaos45
Posts: 2015
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2001 10:00 am

RE: Turns 38-41: 5 March – 25 March 1942

Post by chaos45 »

Think hes in for a tough summer trying to assault into that many Soviets and trying to get that much ground back.

I predict a summer offensive that gets some pockets then sputters out before even the end of summer. To many areas the Germans need to re-take for the long game and to many Soviets to left to defend it all. If the Soviet OOB wasnt over 7M I would give him a chance at recovery- but short of some massive mistakes by Loki which cost the Soviets mulitple 100k+ pockets in succession I dont see success in the germans future.
User avatar
gingerbread
Posts: 3074
Joined: Thu Jan 04, 2007 1:25 am
Location: Sweden

RE: Turns 38-41: 5 March – 25 March 1942

Post by gingerbread »

How is your rail conversion progressing? I'd be interested in the number of vehicles damaged in supply op compared to the same turn, say T40, in your game vs. Sigup.
MattFL
Posts: 353
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 9:48 pm
Contact:

RE: Turns 38-41: 5 March – 25 March 1942

Post by MattFL »

This is one of my favorite AAR's so I'm glad you guys are playing on despite the SHC advantage. Will be curious to see how Vigabrand does over the coming months with all of those panzers he has....
User avatar
loki100
Posts: 11705
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2012 12:38 pm
Location: Utlima Thule

RE: Turns 38-41: 5 March – 25 March 1942

Post by loki100 »

ORIGINAL: Matnjord

Time to hunker down and wait for the hammerfall then. It was a wild ride and you certainly seem in a good position to my untrained eye. Moscow is all but impregnable, especially considering the battering the German rifle divisions have taken in this sector, and Stalingrad is so far from the frontlines that I doubt it's at risk. With all that breathing space you've gained for yourself it seems unlikely the Heer will be able to seriously damage you since you can just retreat at will. This is gonna be an interesting summer for sure, what with the intact Panzerwaffe and Luftwaffe and your 60 guard divisions. Good luck with guessing where he will strike and on your counteroffensive. For the Rodina!

I'm obsessively running recon to spot his Pzrs, I've just sent back T47 (so mid-May) and they are mostly in arc stretching from around Vitebsk to east of Kremenchug. Basically seem to be in 3 clusters, one facing the landbridge, one around Gomel and the final batch north of the Dneipr bend. I think there is a another block in the n Ukraine.

I'm trying to juggle the front lines so they will take some puncturing but to minimise losses of my better units.

My main hope is that his infantry are now battered - there was some evidence for this in some fierce April battles. If so, once I know where he is committed, I think I can attack with some power elsewhere and start to stretch him.

On the landbridge my average defensive stack is about 30cv, so yes, he can break the front line but I can't see him doing more than take out a single army. In the Ukraine, its a lot weaker, but I've already set up a deep and elastic defense.

Its a bit like playing 'chicken', especially with random weather, pull back too early and he gets to redeploy for free, stay too long and I risk a pocket. Easier to guess once the German summer offensive is started.

ORIGINAL: chaos45

Think hes in for a tough summer trying to assault into that many Soviets and trying to get that much ground back.

I predict a summer offensive that gets some pockets then sputters out before even the end of summer. To many areas the Germans need to re-take for the long game and to many Soviets to left to defend it all. If the Soviet OOB wasnt over 7M I would give him a chance at recovery- but short of some massive mistakes by Loki which cost the Soviets mulitple 100k+ pockets in succession I dont see success in the germans future.

As above T47 has just gone back, I have 8.2m men (compared to 7.5m facing SigUp), there he destroyed 30 divisions at the start and I replaced them instantly, so somehow vigabrand has to cull over 2m (200 divisions?), so I suspect that once Vigabrand commits I can both defend and attack, or he needs to weaken his attack by holding quite a lot of armour back as a mobile fire brigade.

Must admit in a way I hate the april-may 1942 mud turns, as the Soviet player you have had to make some big choices and its a caase of having to live with the consequences, at this stage the initiative is (however briefly) back with the German player
ORIGINAL: gingerbread

How is your rail conversion progressing? I'd be interested in the number of vehicles damaged in supply op compared to the same turn, say T40, in your game vs. Sigup.

for the line I'm holding I'm back in my rail net, it was one reason to abandon some of my gains later in the winter.

Comparisons are interesting (these are all for T47) - compares 3 games (V - vigabrand; S - SigUp and A - 1.08.3 AI)

Size: V -8.2m; S - 7.5m; A - 8.2m;
Trucks: V - 96k; S - 135k; A - 121k (so I think that shows the price I paid for the winter battles);
Manpower: V: 116k; S - 61k; A - 550k;
Arms pts: V: 200k; S - 342k; A - 0 (as the AI doesn't really destroy many units)

My weakness here is the truck situation, will certainly limit my generation of tank corps and I'll leave more understrength tank brigades.
ORIGINAL: mattp

This is one of my favorite AAR's so I'm glad you guys are playing on despite the SHC advantage. Will be curious to see how Vigabrand does over the coming months with all of those panzers he has....

glad its interesting to follow.

There was a lot of fighting in April (weather was not that wet .. one of the consequences of random weather) and that was informative. His Pzrs are strong, but he obviously only used them for limited gains, so not a full test of capability. I think, picking up the discussion in Callistrid's AAR, he can breach my lines but he's going to struggle to open up 2 gaps of 3 hexes wide (ie the conditions for a full devastating encirclement), so my instinct is at first, he has to kick down the wall (perhaps go for army sized pockets) and force me to start pulling back and hope to make proper pockets once the battlefield is more mobile.

The problem is I have a lot of space to run to
MattFL
Posts: 353
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 9:48 pm
Contact:

RE: Turns 38-41: 5 March – 25 March 1942

Post by MattFL »

ORIGINAL: loki100

Its a bit like playing 'chicken', especially with random weather, pull back too early and he gets to redeploy for free, stay too long and I risk a pocket.

I think this one statement sums up much of the overall dilemma for SHC throughout the first 2 years... [:)]
User avatar
loki100
Posts: 11705
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2012 12:38 pm
Location: Utlima Thule

RE: Turns 38-41: 5 March – 25 March 1942

Post by loki100 »

ORIGINAL: mattp

ORIGINAL: loki100

Its a bit like playing 'chicken', especially with random weather, pull back too early and he gets to redeploy for free, stay too long and I risk a pocket.

I think this one statement sums up much of the overall dilemma for SHC throughout the first 2 years... [:)]

aye, I think the basic mindset is right, you are always juggling delay against loss.

Its just at the start of the summer 1942 you have usually chosen your positions and defensive layout - as opposed to it being the best you can put together under pressure - so I sort of feel more responsible if it all goes very wrong [8D]
User avatar
loki100
Posts: 11705
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2012 12:38 pm
Location: Utlima Thule

Turns 42-44: 26 March – 22 April 1942

Post by loki100 »

Turns 42-44: 26 March – 22 April 1942

The weather in this period had a major impact on the combat operations of both armies. As opposed to the normal period of rain and thaw, the weather switched between a return to winter, rain and periods when the ground dried out [1].

The result was ongoing, if limited, operations and both sides having to adjust their plans to cope with the changes in fortune.

Fighting carried on in the north. The Germans tried to crush the Soviet bridgehead using 57 Panzer Corps but despite pressing 33 Army back, Leningrad Front retained a substantial hold on the west bank of the Volkhov.

In early April the Germans commenced a limited offensive designed to eliminate the Soviet bridgehead in the Dneipr bend. Their opening attack disrupted the Soviet defensive lines but they did not try immediately to exploit their gains.

Image

By 16 April this process of blow and counter-blow had developed into a major German operation.

Image

All of 3 and 14 Panzer Corps were involved and the results were studied carefully by Stavka.

Clearly the Germans were capable of breaking the defensive line but they paid a heavy cost.

Image

Image
(Soviet AT rifle team in combat near Dnepropetrovsk)

In turn, Stavka ordered a localised offensive. To the north, 18 and 19 Armies overran some Romanian formations.

Image

With their northern flank secured, 56 Army restored Soviet control of the north bank of the Dneipr and threw back the German spearheads.

Image

[2]

Elsewhere, isolated battles broke out as the Soviets struck back at over-extended German units.

Image
Image
[3]

Early April also brought evidence that the Germans had redeployed the Luftwaffe to support their summer offensive.

Image

However, the Luftwaffe could offer almost no defence against one of the most effective weapons available to the Stavka. The U-2 biplane may have been a throwback to a previous era of combat aviation but used as a night harassment weapon they inflicted steady losses on the German and Finnish formations on the northern sector of the front.

Image

Image
U2 returning after a successful raid

Overall losses reflected the relatively intense fighting. The Axis forces lost 30,000 men (9,000 killed) and 67 tanks, Soviet losses were 80,000 men (28,000 killed) and 20 tanks.

[1] – This is another area where WiTW is a real improvement – it combines the impact of weather in previous turns with the current turn (so the ground has a 'wetness' rating). The reason why the Spring mud was worse than autumn is due to the thawing process not the amount of rain. In effect, the surface unfreezes but about 2-4m down the ground initially stays frozen. Thus any melt water stays on the surface and creates a layer of mud 2m deep that rests on deep frozen ground. Rain as such is not that important. So really the non-random mud for April is a much better representation of reality.

Still does make this period a lot more interesting to play.

By May that deep frozen layer has melted, so it is then dependent on the amount of rain falling in a week.

[2] – So on balance losses were in my favour, I've lost a defensive in front of Dnepropetrovsk (but still hold the city as a bridgehead for now), which I was never going to hold. If the summer battles produce a similar loss ratio the Panzers will be ground down fairly quickly.

[3] – I lost about the same number of these too, mainly where fog of war obscured the true strength of the Germans. Main thing is, at least prior to the summer morale collapse, my infantry is the match of the Germans, so should mean that I have little to fear in terms of offensive operations across most of the front.
User avatar
loki100
Posts: 11705
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2012 12:38 pm
Location: Utlima Thule

Turns 45-48: 23 April – 20 May 1942

Post by loki100 »

Turns 45-48: 23 April – 20 May 1942

With almost all major combat operations stalled by the spring muds, both sides re-organised and set in place their plans for the summer battles.

As a prelude, the Germans clearly decided to destroy the Soviet outpost at Odessa. Over several weeks, the port was bombed till it was scarcely functioning.

Image

Finally, Stavka authorised the evacuation of the city, the garrison would be of more value redeployed to the main front.

Image
(aftermath of German bombing raid at Odessa)

Promotions continued to be given to commanders and formations that had distinguished themselves in the winter battles.

Image

While the Red Army rested and re-organised, the VVS was fully committed to a major air reconnaissance campaign in an attempt to detect the location of the German armour.

By mid May three main clusters had been detected. 57 Panzer Corps was known to be on the Leningrad front, helping the Finns hold the line of the Volkhov. This appeared to be the only reserve formation in the Army Group North sector indicating the Germans had gone over to the defence north of Velikie-Luki.

For the rest, it was assumed that the equivalent of 2 Panzer Armies were deployed to the east of Kremenchug. This grouping could attack east towards the Dombas or north towards Kharkov. Another Panzer Army had been detected around Gomel. This could either support an attempt at a major encirclement of SW Front, or operate with the final Panzer Army detected west of Smolensk.

In theory this gave the Germans the capacity to renew their Moscow offensive, in reality it would lead them directly into strong and multiple Soviet defence lines.

On balance, Stavka's analysis was that the Germans would prioritise a campaign in the Kharkov sector as once they had crossed the Vorskla there were no more major rivers till they reached the Donets. Equally success here, meant they could then drive south-east and take the Dombas region or north-east towards Orel and Tula.

This analysis meant the Panzers at Smolensk were an essentially defensive force designed to prevent a Soviet counterattack on that sector.

Image


Image
(Soviet troops resting after the winter battles)

OOB

Image

Image
(Pe-2 squadron re-equipping for the expected German offensive)

Industrial report

Image
User avatar
M60A3TTS
Posts: 4786
Joined: Fri May 13, 2011 1:20 am

RE: Turns 45-48: 23 April – 20 May 1942

Post by M60A3TTS »

It's really too bad the U2-VS does not have an upgrade path to the U-2R or U-2 trans. Then it would be a very versatile aircraft in the inventory. I'm no expert but it seems to be the same aircraft performing different functions.
User avatar
gingerbread
Posts: 3074
Joined: Thu Jan 04, 2007 1:25 am
Location: Sweden

RE: Turns 45-48: 23 April – 20 May 1942

Post by gingerbread »

8.3M! How did you manage to do that?

4.1M Germans is also high, but I thought you lost quite a lot before blizzard and still 8+.

Edit: Your supply stockpile is decreasing by how much each turn?

I think you have overbuilt just a little... [;)]
Post Reply

Return to “After Action Reports”