Mayhemizer vs AllenK: The rematch

[Mayhemizer_slith]

Destroyed during M/A 1941

[AllenK]

Initiative Allies 5, Axis 9. Axis re-rolls. Axis 2, Allies 5. Allies go first.

Weather is fine everywhere.

[WIF_Killzone]

Hungary, really?? Good job Allen, love it. How could you Mayhemizer, shame, shame.

[Mayhemizer_slith]

I still can't understand how I removed CAV from covering Budapest, it was not nesessary for attack in Zagreb. And I did not realize supply line to Rumania goes trough Hungary.

[Courtenay]

ORIGINAL: AllenK

Initiative Allies 5, Axis 9. Axis re-rolls. Axis 2, Allies 5. Allies go first.

Something doesn't make sense here. Either a number is wrong, or the Allies rerolled, not the Axis.

[Mayhemizer_slith]

Looks like Axis rerolled initiative as initiative track was at 0 and now it is as Allied +1. I guess It was Allies 9, Axis 5.

Game will be on pause for about 2 weeks. This is a good time for me to look back and learn from my mistakes. This game will not see year 1945, I have to make sure next game goes better.


AXIS MAJOR MISTAKES

1) In S/O 1939 I had a plan to attack Netherlands on impulse 3 using combined and invade Rotterdam. Polish unit made a move and entered Germany. I had to kill it. I was not able to use combined so I did not declare war on Netherlands. This was a big mistake, I lost a fine impulse for nothing. I should have declared war and go with land instead of combined. Next impulse I used combined and captured Rotterdam, but CW reinforced Amsterdam. Was it worth of one impulse? No it was not. I should not hold on my plans, I need to change my plans if opponent does something I don't expect. After this I did not learn that lesson (see mistake 2).

2) After very short summer 1940, both M/J and J/A ended at the first possible moment (rolls 1 and 1), Germany had forces on Greek border. I planned to attack Greece during J/A using fine weather but summer was too short. Again I was not able to change my plans. I declared war on Greece S/O 1940 in bad weather. Result was many lost units, CW landed 4 corps and Aligned Yugoslavia. I don't need to tell you that I was not prepared for that. So thing went from bad to worse. Lucky me CW chose naval after aligning Yugoslavia and I was able to protect myself. I should have aborted entire Greek campaign and go for Barbarossa 1941.

3) When Yugoslavia was aligned by CW Axis sent troops to block Yugoslavian forces entering Rumania and Hungary. I calculated Germany/USSR garrison value so that USSR can't break the pact. Then I made an attack in Finland killing one USSR unit and flipping two own stacks. Axis garrison value dropped and USSR was able to break the pact. That was just a stupid mistake...

4) Axis made an 35:5 (+14) attack to Zagreb in M/A 1941. Was it really necessary to take 2-4 Hungarian cavalry to that attack? Or should I used that CAV to protect Budapest? I gave 3 seconds thought to that when I moved my units. I was thinking: Hey, I have 3 factor bomber in Budapest if Yugoslavians try to attack. In rebase phase I rebased that bomber. Yugoslavia make an 7:3 (+4,667) attack, rolled 16, captured Budapest and put German forces in Rumania OOS.


WHAT HAVE I LEARNED?

1) I should not try play as I planned if situation changes.

2) I should not do stupid mistakes. They just make me look and feel stupid.


There are minor mistakes every impulse, but these mistakes ruined my game. I hope I don't repeat these mistakes ever gain. If I do, I have not learned anything.

AAR will continue in about 2 weeks, but it won't be pretty for Axis [;)]

[AlbertN]

The Rotterdam issue is tricky ... I just hope the "No ZOC on Surprise" optional comes out fast. It's way too easy for the Allies to protect themselves early on in many situations (From the Benelux to Barbarossa, and similars).

Greece I suspect you went prematurely, but I am used to the "Close the Med" go for the Axis, which makes Greece much easier as the UK is otherwise busy elsewhere.
Besides that for Greece I always prefer to go via sea - invading 2 ports with divisions and bombing Athens from Albania or Rhodes depending where planes can be placed and supplied. After the 1st impulse where the Divisions take foot, the next impulse the italian TPs can ship in 2 German corps. That along with Bulgarian forces descending from north should secure a bunch of ports the UK can use to reinforce. (And if you have Gibraltar already, I am doubtful the UK will commit to Greece).

And in general there is the bad feeling that Axis is on a very thight schedule, if they cannot respect it they're sort of screwed over.

[brian brian]

There was a good thread recently about Germany screening Poland and attacking hard in the West in 1939. A lot can go wrong with that strategy, beyond the German player's control.

Meanwhile one of the more commonly discussed possible optionals in the game is the no-ZoC on Surprise rule. An argument in favor is it can speed the conquest of France to see more historical results there.

But I think using that optional to attack the West in 1939 would not be a good thing for the game in general. It is quite common to decry a couple French cruisers raiding the Baltic in 1939 as gamey. Fair enough. But I would say that Germany attacking the Benelux countries and France in 1939 is pretty gamey too, as Hitler quite probably didn't have the political capital with the German General Staff to roll the dice like that. I'm not saying there should be rules against it, not at all, but that should be kept in perspective particularly if using the No-ZoC-on-Surprise optional. The Germans didn't know the Blitzkrieg would work like it did either, and I find it quite unlikely that the Field Marshalls would agree with the Corporal on starting a brand new war in Europe on two fronts simultaneously.

And there are ways for the WiF Germans to reach Paris while leaving Rotterdam neutral, if they wish.

[Barbuesque]

At the end of the march/april 1940 turn, France looked about to collapse. A year later, it was still in the game. Bad weather, turns ending as early as was possible and lost initiative rolls are the main culprits.

If there's anything I think you could have done to mitigate that, it would have been to not invade the Balkans and use the extra forces to press France even harder. Admittedly I'm a newbie, but everything seems to hinge around France falling early, and every single available air, HQ and armored resources should be channeled toward that goal.

[Jagdtiger14]

I do not think No Surprise ZOC is a good option to play with. My face to face group has refused to play with it as we all agree its too powerful. Depending on option selection pre-game and pre-assignment of sides it could be used as a balancing option depending on what the Allies get in return. With this option you will not see Germany DOW Netherlands until Japan does. This effects lots of things: US entry, Netherlands naval/cp's, etc...

I agree with Cohen on his Med preference. Italy (along with German air/airborne) is normally tasked with invading Greece, which then sees Yugoslavia aligned with the Axis (extremely useful...both from a unit perspective as well as less partisans). Bulgaria is not required to take Greece. Italy needs to build/plan for the Greek invasion from turn 1.

About this AAR. I think flexibility is important at all times. Have a list of things you would like to do...perhaps set time tables and priorities. There were way too many things going on before the fall of France. #1 priority for Germany before all else is the take down of France...until that is accomplished, put noting more on your plate. You can and should build units with the view of what ever your next strategic goals are post-France...but stay focused on France no matter what the weather and turn end rolls. Keep in mind that both a '41 as well as a '42 Barb are valid. With a successful Med strategy, you can have a two front '42 Barb...maybe even a three front with the Japs involved...so even though time is against the Axis, there is enough time between the fall of France and Barb. A good reason for a Fall Gelb is that it gives you even more time and options.

[AlbertN]

I agree with the policy of the "Mass Force", which seems to work in this game. A German corp itself is not able to overwhelm a French Corp, not even a panzer corp against an infantry corp.
You needed masses and masses of forces attacking at incredible odds to maybe achieve a victory (and by amazing forces I mean 6-1 7-1 ratios, which is a +12 / +14), far from ensuring a smooth result, because of that indeed you need to squeeze every single thing you have.
That's how the game works - because an attack gone wrong and you risk to have your whole army pinned on the spot (Either fully disrupted or with hexes needed for more attacks half occupied by disrupted units). Thus Germany must perform overwhelming attacks in the early game, unable to afford losses of units and losses of time.
So pratically the best way - in my eyes - is to hit the targets one by one, but hit them hard. That should ensure you have also the quickest way to deal with them instead than splitting your units in more sectors and maybe failing everywhere.

About the France First possibility that's a massive gamble, since the W.Allies have the first turn of surprise and if Germany deploys west, well they get bombed into hell by British and UK TACs with no ability to intercept, meaning a good amount of their troops can get disrupted (HQs included, and planes) on the ground. It's a gamble, mainly due to Germany being surprised though.

[Jagdtiger14]

I do not think France first is a big gamble (no surprise there on my opinion)...the early Allied bombers are of low ground strike values, and if you place your important units in forest and spread them out, its very unlikely the Allies get successful GS's on them with much meaningful result vis-à-vis Fall Gelb.

Obviously there is a lot of risk taking in this game, I prefer to get a +13 on any attack, just to avoid the dreaded 14 result...but this can and should be accomplished with flips and other bonus's rather than just looking at mass alone.

[brian brian]

I always think part of the resistance to trying the 2d10 is this feeling that the die modifiers are some sort of cheat, when the player new to 2d10 is on the losing end of a +13 die roll that started out as just a 3-1 attack if looked at in the style of an Avalon Hill classic game of the 60s. The die modifiers represent successful, intelligent use of Combined Arms, which can triumph over Mass - a prime lesson of WWII. The game does reward Mass though, but more in terms of keeping your strategy focused. Try and do too many things at once, and all of those things suffer.


A prime Allied response to Fall Gelb is indeed Ground Strikes. They are not as likely to be successful as Stuka strikes, but if von Rundstedt HQ-A is hit ... where is your strategy now? Or if the first weather die roll of the game is a 10 - not likely, but it does happen in some games. The US Entry results can be gi-normous as well. It's a fun strategy to explore, but the key die-roll systems of the game put one German foot in a hole with it, and I think over time you lose interest in falling into a long Sitzkrieg type struggle game just because you tried to play for very high stakes on the first turn. A lot depends on the gamer involved however. Everyone should try it - a very interesting game.

[Jagdtiger14]

IF HQ-Rundstedt gets hit, it sucks, but does not change much. More than likely he was to be used as a re-organizer any way. If/when all HQ's are flipped, if need be...assuming the weather is favorable and fairly early in the turn, they can be re-flipped with an O-chit. Of course things can go wrong (weather, +), if any strategy was fail safe, no one would play the game. If a player were to do Fall Gelb and everything goes wrong, what is left is the normal non-Fall Gelb progression with a weaker than normal campaign vs Poland. I don't see a Sitzkrieg at all...and no reason for anyone to loss interest.

[Centuur]

What happened in this game is the mistake a lot of people make when they are playing the Axis. They think Germany has such a good army (and it is really good, no doubt about it), that it can be used in more fronts at the time. I've concluded that this can only be done in Poland and France together, because of the terrain in those countries and Germany is adjacent to those countries.
To get units into Finland, Germany needs combined impulses and that damages the attack on France. Greece is a mountainous country, which is easy to defend and far from Germany, so it takes quite some time to prepare an attack there, taking forces away from the capture of France in 1940.

The German army needs to attack in force, supported by the Luftwaffe and cannot affort adventures far away in 1940 at all.

Try to minimize losses as Germany and you are going to be OK. Sure, the summer turns were incredibly short, but that is something you have to take into account. Concentrate your forces and things are much, much better for Germany...

[AllenK]

Thanks for the interest and comments while I have been away. Back to the action.

J/F 41 Allies 1.

With so many Axis units OOS in the East, Uncle Joe thinks this is too good an opportunity to miss and promptly declares war on Germany and Italy. The US isn't as upset as it might have been (9 rolled) but it still costs 3 entry chits.

Russia calls out the reserves. With the cities near the front stacked to capacity, they may take a while before their presence is felt.

USSR uses its O-chit for a Super-Combined. French Pass. Everyone else Combined, except China Land.

CW sends Beaufighter to West Med 3-box.

US sends a Trans back to US Coast from Midway. A Garr is shipped from Pearl to Midway and replaced by one shipped from US.

A Greek CP moves into the East Med. Does the Italian CL wish to intercept?

[AlbertN]

That looks like an interesting bend of the game.

Euro-Axis looks in deep deep trouble; though their Army in France should be soon free to operate.

[AllenK]

Hi Cohen,

The army in France has already largely redeployed to the east. Left are 6 German (3 Garr) and 6 Italian units, plus an Italian HQ. Another German Inf is in Brussels. Effectively, the garrison forces.

[AllenK]

The Allies receive a telex from the Axis HQ stating they do not wish to intercept and the CP continues to the Italian Coast.

A second CP moves to the West Med. The Italians decline the intercept.

USSR puts its naval forces into the Baltic and Black Sea (3 and 4 boxes). A CA in the Black Sea loads an Inf Div.

3 areas available for combat. East Med, West Med and the Baltic.

First up, the Baltic.

USSR commits subs. Searches Allied 2, Axis 2. USSR elects for surface and clears the Baltic of German CP's.

[AllenK]

Allies decline the East Med but initiate in the West Med. No extra Allied air is flown. Germany can fly Condors from either Sicily or La Spezia to the 3-box and a further Nav to the 2-box. Italy can fly a Nav from Italy to the 2-box and a Ftr from Sicily to the 1-box. Do any wish to participate? Current Allied forces the Beaufighter and a CP.