The starting soviet forces are relative tough, but sacrifice theme in useless stand, are pointless. Against TDV, I never attack the overpowered positions, just find the weak link, and with my concentrated panzer units break it, and encircle 3 stack units. Several time sacrificed one or two 40-50 MP panzer unit, just to move into a good position, where I can control the soviet retreat hex. Several times, the soviets retreat into a bag, and never hit them second time, or don't have space, and Mp due ZOC for retreat, and just rout away. It was easy to clear 3 hex wide corridor, and the second panzer wave just moved into undefended, or low defended area, leaving behind the wall of steel.
The most effective soviet strategy, is retreat during T01-10. The germans can't encircle without the supply source gains, and the air supply is enough just to fight, not for maneuvering soviet troops. The soviet frontline take care just on panzers, and fall back 3-4 hexes, avoiding the german infantry attack. If any infantry attack will be occured on T02-T10 (on center, and south front), the soviet did a bad job.
If the casualties are less than 1.5 million, and the soviet army close to 5 million during T10, the soviet won the war. With high number of troops Stalino, Leningrad, Moscow can't fall, and after september, the soviet counterattack farm guard troops, what could be devastating during winter campaign. Beating the german army during the winter, weaking his 42 summer efforts.
Holding terrain on early turns not an issue. The current patch will harm the german logistical rules, so I will play my future games with lowered 50-66 % transport capacity.
Callistrid vs TDV
Moderators: Joel Billings, Sabre21
RE: Annihilation of Northwestern front
Not going to say its over yet but hes going to have a rough 5 or so turns if he doesnt get at least 1-2 mud turns between now and fall. Thats alot of troops to lose before T10.
As to next patch dont think transportation lowering will simulate the new german supply rules- my understanding is reduced fuel air drops and reduced the supply line chain from 25MP to 20 MP. Those are more or less under the hood game engine changes.
Basically it shouldnt stop the Germans ability to conduct offensive operations but should slightly degrade re-supply to troops further from railheads.
As to next patch dont think transportation lowering will simulate the new german supply rules- my understanding is reduced fuel air drops and reduced the supply line chain from 25MP to 20 MP. Those are more or less under the hood game engine changes.
Basically it shouldnt stop the Germans ability to conduct offensive operations but should slightly degrade re-supply to troops further from railheads.
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Callistrid
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RE: Annihilation of Northwestern front
We play nonrandom weather, so won't be mud.
And the ctransport capacity shoud be lowered for both side. Right now, the soviet side can evacuate to fast, gives no reason to fight. With -5 supply radius for germans, and 66 % transport capacity for soviet side, could be balanced. With 100 % transport, the soviet just need to fall back to Luga and Moscow line, build fortifications, refit... and just wait the germans, who's can't attack that line unitl T10.
And of course double the soviet casulties if they attack, or defend. Right now both sides casulties are extreemly low. Right now, the dead are around 100k, and the disabled soldiers are around 250k for soviet sides. 1600k surrounded. So don't simulate the bloody battles.
And the ctransport capacity shoud be lowered for both side. Right now, the soviet side can evacuate to fast, gives no reason to fight. With -5 supply radius for germans, and 66 % transport capacity for soviet side, could be balanced. With 100 % transport, the soviet just need to fall back to Luga and Moscow line, build fortifications, refit... and just wait the germans, who's can't attack that line unitl T10.
And of course double the soviet casulties if they attack, or defend. Right now both sides casulties are extreemly low. Right now, the dead are around 100k, and the disabled soldiers are around 250k for soviet sides. 1600k surrounded. So don't simulate the bloody battles.
RE: Annihilation of Northwestern front
IDK even with -5MP for supply I think the Germans can threaten Soviet evac. Historically speaking- the game allows Lvov opening so this removes most of the troops the soviets normally would have to delay the industrial push to historical advance rates. So if you then lower soviet transportation you basically automatically almost allow the German player to get better than historical results despite Soviet play.
In this game you have already inflicted close to historical factory losses on the Soviets- would have to run the numbers but historically if you look at 1942 start the Soviets dont lose all that much industry.
Yes the losses are stupid low. As my game goes forward you will see how stupid low they are for combat. Effectively the Soviets cannot wear the Germans down at all because combat losses are to low to be any effect on the German Army. Its why you are seeing a consistent German army of 3.9-4M men in 1942. The Germans and its allies replace 20-30k men per turn- attrition is I think running around 9-10K per turn and even with massive amounts of combat maybe 20k losses for direct full on confrontational assaults.
So it basically means every time there is a lull the German OOB grows and during full offensives they can actually gain manpower due to the losses being so pathetically low for combat. Just finished T55- again Germans- trying to encircle almost 3 entire fronts- and against some very large scale soviet counterattacks- pushed back 9 German infantry divisions an 2 motorized divisions most of them through Zoc's and overstacks- not one single rout and losses 1-2K per massive battle. Also 2 failed fairly massive attacks against 4 other panzer divisions again 1-2k losses per side. These are assaults involved 2+ Soviet armies each....
The super artificial morale balancer they have in the game may give close to some "historical" eb and flow to the game but if they fixed the casualties it would go a long way towards making the game play better and be more realistic. Its completely stupid that turn after turn Soviets armies/fronts can stop German assaults and counterattack their gains and only inflict 10K losses per turn...in operations of this scale both sides would easily burn 10k+ men per day. The operation would have to cease or both sides feed fresh units in to the assault due to casualties not lack of movement points.
Overall this gives the Germans a massive artificial edge in both 1941/1942 as they effectively have more supermen than historical to fight the war with and in all honesty short of an encirclement which- due to super low soviet morale will never happen as it costs to much movement to even move through open German hexes the Soviets cant attrit German forces. Attrition should play against the Germans every turn of the game and it doesnt at all in the current version of the game.
Stalingrad only happened because of attrition- Simply werent enough Germans left to guard the flanks- you will never see that in this game under the current combat rules as you will never kill enough Germans to matter until maybe 1943/1944 when the soviets base morale increases to at least be somewhat combat capable.
Tank losses seem about right as Im losing a load of Soviet tanks but not losing near enough men, nor inflicting near enough losses on the Germans per battle.
In this game you have already inflicted close to historical factory losses on the Soviets- would have to run the numbers but historically if you look at 1942 start the Soviets dont lose all that much industry.
Yes the losses are stupid low. As my game goes forward you will see how stupid low they are for combat. Effectively the Soviets cannot wear the Germans down at all because combat losses are to low to be any effect on the German Army. Its why you are seeing a consistent German army of 3.9-4M men in 1942. The Germans and its allies replace 20-30k men per turn- attrition is I think running around 9-10K per turn and even with massive amounts of combat maybe 20k losses for direct full on confrontational assaults.
So it basically means every time there is a lull the German OOB grows and during full offensives they can actually gain manpower due to the losses being so pathetically low for combat. Just finished T55- again Germans- trying to encircle almost 3 entire fronts- and against some very large scale soviet counterattacks- pushed back 9 German infantry divisions an 2 motorized divisions most of them through Zoc's and overstacks- not one single rout and losses 1-2K per massive battle. Also 2 failed fairly massive attacks against 4 other panzer divisions again 1-2k losses per side. These are assaults involved 2+ Soviet armies each....
The super artificial morale balancer they have in the game may give close to some "historical" eb and flow to the game but if they fixed the casualties it would go a long way towards making the game play better and be more realistic. Its completely stupid that turn after turn Soviets armies/fronts can stop German assaults and counterattack their gains and only inflict 10K losses per turn...in operations of this scale both sides would easily burn 10k+ men per day. The operation would have to cease or both sides feed fresh units in to the assault due to casualties not lack of movement points.
Overall this gives the Germans a massive artificial edge in both 1941/1942 as they effectively have more supermen than historical to fight the war with and in all honesty short of an encirclement which- due to super low soviet morale will never happen as it costs to much movement to even move through open German hexes the Soviets cant attrit German forces. Attrition should play against the Germans every turn of the game and it doesnt at all in the current version of the game.
Stalingrad only happened because of attrition- Simply werent enough Germans left to guard the flanks- you will never see that in this game under the current combat rules as you will never kill enough Germans to matter until maybe 1943/1944 when the soviets base morale increases to at least be somewhat combat capable.
Tank losses seem about right as Im losing a load of Soviet tanks but not losing near enough men, nor inflicting near enough losses on the Germans per battle.
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Callistrid
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RE: Annihilation of Northwestern front
Chaos4, as experienced soviet player, I know how to fight against the germans in 1941. The current transport capacity is to high, and gives no reason to hold any line against the german, because will enough to evacuate all important industrial areas during T03-T08.
The german has no chance to threat D-town, or any other major area, because a simple retreat protect those regions, and after the easy/low cost eacuation, the soviet army fall back to defend another region. German supply lines are so weak, and the new -5 rule further increase the disproportion.
I know what was in WW2, but the soviets sacrefice their armies, giving chance to evacuate them. Now, both goals could be executed, save your troops, and evauate the industrial sites.
And saving soviet army, gain more reinforcements + low german supply lines is a synergic effect. The soviet side will be overpowered, and the area losses could be given back during winter offense, with high number of troops. We are far from the historical losses, because the soviets have no reason to stand and fight on early turns.
What TDV did was historical, but useless in WITE, because he had enough time to evacuate all his industrial areas without loosing his troops.
The german has no chance to threat D-town, or any other major area, because a simple retreat protect those regions, and after the easy/low cost eacuation, the soviet army fall back to defend another region. German supply lines are so weak, and the new -5 rule further increase the disproportion.
I know what was in WW2, but the soviets sacrefice their armies, giving chance to evacuate them. Now, both goals could be executed, save your troops, and evauate the industrial sites.
And saving soviet army, gain more reinforcements + low german supply lines is a synergic effect. The soviet side will be overpowered, and the area losses could be given back during winter offense, with high number of troops. We are far from the historical losses, because the soviets have no reason to stand and fight on early turns.
What TDV did was historical, but useless in WITE, because he had enough time to evacuate all his industrial areas without loosing his troops.
RE: Annihilation of Northwestern front
Chaos, I agree (again) with the ahistorical German military might we ,see 41-42, but look at the massive 44-45 Soviet army in the average AAR. Now that is really ridiculous.
How to deal with it ??? Decrease AP points, limit the flexibility of both sides to change historical blunders in troop transfers and production, slow the advance of supply, and most importantly not only increase the baseline attrition, but magnify it's impact on unsupplied units.
Though Soviet command got better, they consistently under-utilized forces because of poor communication and planning over the vast German/Soviet front. Much of what we see as "combat" in WITE was, in reality, many small uncontested Soviet infiltrations that the Germans simply withdrew from. Massive, full scale, combined-arms battles were a rarity. Look at the eye-witness counts from both sides of the Cherkassy Pocket early 1944. Large number of forces, extensive troop movement, but little face to face fighting. Sure the Soviets shelled and bombed the crap out of the Germans and isolated 60-90,000 German soldiers, but actual fighting, very limited. Read about it, how 1/2 of the Germans escaped seems like a fairy tale- they walked out of it !!! in single file to boot !!! How you reproduce the real fighting 44-45 in WITE ?? Probably it's impossible.
How to deal with it ??? Decrease AP points, limit the flexibility of both sides to change historical blunders in troop transfers and production, slow the advance of supply, and most importantly not only increase the baseline attrition, but magnify it's impact on unsupplied units.
Though Soviet command got better, they consistently under-utilized forces because of poor communication and planning over the vast German/Soviet front. Much of what we see as "combat" in WITE was, in reality, many small uncontested Soviet infiltrations that the Germans simply withdrew from. Massive, full scale, combined-arms battles were a rarity. Look at the eye-witness counts from both sides of the Cherkassy Pocket early 1944. Large number of forces, extensive troop movement, but little face to face fighting. Sure the Soviets shelled and bombed the crap out of the Germans and isolated 60-90,000 German soldiers, but actual fighting, very limited. Read about it, how 1/2 of the Germans escaped seems like a fairy tale- they walked out of it !!! in single file to boot !!! How you reproduce the real fighting 44-45 in WITE ?? Probably it's impossible.
WITE is a good addiction with no cure.
RE: Annihilation of Northwestern front
Not going to hijack his thread...will post my reply hitman in the manpower thread that was started.
Looking forward to seeing the rest of this AAR [8D]
Looking forward to seeing the rest of this AAR [8D]
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Callistrid
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RE: Annihilation of Northwestern front
Just do it 
I'm interesting about game arguement, and analyze the game. I have my own opinion after numerous gameplay, plus historical reseurces (I'm graduated in history, MA), so don't feel you hijack his thread.
I'm interesting about game arguement, and analyze the game. I have my own opinion after numerous gameplay, plus historical reseurces (I'm graduated in history, MA), so don't feel you hijack his thread.
RE: Annihilation of Northwestern front
Callistrid, this AAR will be interesting then as well since you guys are playing non-random weather. I have a feeling that will be a huge benefit to German operations. Almost all of the other current AARs are using Random weather and on average the German advance is getting slowed by at least 1 mud turn or more. We may seem some very different results from your game with no mud until october I believe it is for non-random weather.
From playing the soviets it seems mud is one of the only things that helps to save the early game situation so be interesting to see how this game plays out.
From playing the soviets it seems mud is one of the only things that helps to save the early game situation so be interesting to see how this game plays out.
RE: Annihilation of Northwestern front
I play both weather options and really have no preference. The decent Soviet player should be able to survive 41 without early mud intervention.
RE: Annihilation of Northwestern front
Basically the difference I saw in my game vs Pelton was that the early mud turn helped me get more industry out- but in the late fall/early winter months he got a ton more snow turns which would normally be mud.
So basically unless the Germans get bad rolls on mud over the summer- 2+ mud turns stopping panzer movments, they then will typically get more good weather in late fall to make up for it. Pelton is very right on his thoughts the random weather is almost a benefit to the Germans. As what is for sure mud turns by non-random turn into about 50/50 it seems mud/snow turns for the critical moscow sector. However come winter 1943- that benefit should shift to the soviets being able to conduct offensives longer in those sectors if the fighting is still there.
So basically unless the Germans get bad rolls on mud over the summer- 2+ mud turns stopping panzer movments, they then will typically get more good weather in late fall to make up for it. Pelton is very right on his thoughts the random weather is almost a benefit to the Germans. As what is for sure mud turns by non-random turn into about 50/50 it seems mud/snow turns for the critical moscow sector. However come winter 1943- that benefit should shift to the soviets being able to conduct offensives longer in those sectors if the fighting is still there.
RE: Annihilation of Northwestern front
ORIGINAL: chaos45
Basically the difference I saw in my game vs Pelton was that the early mud turn helped me get more industry out- but in the late fall/early winter months he got a ton more snow turns which would normally be mud.
So basically unless the Germans get bad rolls on mud over the summer- 2+ mud turns stopping panzer movments, they then will typically get more good weather in late fall to make up for it. Pelton is very right on his thoughts the random weather is almost a benefit to the Germans. As what is for sure mud turns by non-random turn into about 50/50 it seems mud/snow turns for the critical moscow sector. However come winter 1943- that benefit should shift to the soviets being able to conduct offensives longer in those sectors if the fighting is still there.
Russians have low MP's so snow slows operation and blizzard even more + snow/blizzard conditions kill more trucks which in turn lowers Russia MP's
Also in the spring which is a killer for Germany 43+ its basicly mud for 10 weeks instead of mud/clear/mud/clear mud clear mud
for May and 1/2 of June. Like our game April all Mud every zone and May all mud every zone other then 1 turn in south.
June was Mud then I got lucky and had a clear turn the last week.
And with random I know before Russian player what the zone will be.
The 42 spring the German player benafits from the extra mud turns as much as Russian if not more.
43,44 and 45 Springs you get 4 to 5 extra turns per yr which is huge.
vs smokendave random weather I would win NP, but non-random I have no chance. I can draw that is it, unless I can TKO someone in 41 or 42.
The Red Army is so over rated in 44-45 its almost impossible to hang on as Germany even if you do far better then historical 41 and 42.
Peltonx vs smokendave.
Same goes for this game, if TDV is able to hold Moscow he will win because he is a very skilled attacker if not the best I have played.
Same for our game if u hang on u will win or draw at the worst.
Beta Tester WitW & WitE
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Callistrid
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Leningrad fall
T08 North front
HI destroyed: 33 (9 locked)
Arm industry destroyed: 25 (8 locked)
Leningrad fall, and 20 soviet division was encircled. TDV-s defense strategy don't work, the infantry divisions, just open the Luga-line, and two panzer army (15 motorized division) drive toward to Leningrad, and capture the city.
HI destroyed: 33 (9 locked)
Arm industry destroyed: 25 (8 locked)
Leningrad fall, and 20 soviet division was encircled. TDV-s defense strategy don't work, the infantry divisions, just open the Luga-line, and two panzer army (15 motorized division) drive toward to Leningrad, and capture the city.
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Callistrid
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RE: Leningrad fall
T08 Center
The 2nd panzer army start flanking the soviet main defense line around Moscow, and threat Tula. 12 soviet divisions where pocketed here.
The 2nd panzer army start flanking the soviet main defense line around Moscow, and threat Tula. 12 soviet divisions where pocketed here.
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Callistrid
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RE: Leningrad fall
T08 South
TDV successfully break my encirclement last turn, and cut my supply line. However, the brase soviet soldiers, who rescued their comrades, had been circled. 14 division will be eliminated next turn on south.
TDV successfully break my encirclement last turn, and cut my supply line. However, the brase soviet soldiers, who rescued their comrades, had been circled. 14 division will be eliminated next turn on south.
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Callistrid
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RE: Leningrad fall
T08 casualty/OOD/destroyed units list
The soviet casulties are extreemly high, and this turn another 45-50 division had been encircled. 25+ on north (some of them are brigades, not divisions), 12 on center, and 14 on south.
The soviet army run out of fighting forces, and during T07-T12, his reinforcements are relative low.
The soviet casulties are extreemly high, and this turn another 45-50 division had been encircled. 25+ on north (some of them are brigades, not divisions), 12 on center, and 14 on south.
The soviet army run out of fighting forces, and during T07-T12, his reinforcements are relative low.
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RE: Leningrad fall
Just wanted to say thanks for doing this AAR (and thanks to all the others). I bought WitE a long while back when it was on sale, but never really got too far into it (busy with school, etc) but now I'm really in the mood for this kind of gameplay and reading these AAR's gives me some good inspiration for how to about waging my campaigns!
RE: Leningrad fall
Ouch....dont know that he can recover from that turn.
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Callistrid
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RE: Leningrad fall
It was a pleasure to share my experience, and gameplay insights with the WITE community.
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Callistrid
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- Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 12:27 pm
RE: Leningrad fall
ORIGINAL: chaos45Ouch....dont know that he can recover from that turn.
I belive TDV can't recover after his looses. His troops will be under 3 million, and the german side has more troops, more divisions, and far more experienced units, then the soviet will recive in 1941. Around T11, 5 infantry, and 3 panzer army will attack Moscow, using the same strategy, encircle troops.
TDV's early defense strategy, and looses decide the game.