Callistrid vs TDV

[chaos45]

Yes I think the Soviets are fighting an uphill battle by far now in the game in 1941/1942 much harder to successfully defend for the Soviets than historical. Could be wrong as my experience in this game system isnt extensive....but from playing alot of other eastern front games the Germans seem to have it much easier in this system, my opinion is that its because losses are much to low which benefits the Germans more than soviets really. As it allows them to maintain really high CVs for a much longer period than historical.

[Callistrid]

The game rules works fne, but the retreat system are deadly for soviet side. My micro strategy was to control the soviet retreat zone, or force them to rout by giving ZOC them.
I belive the current retreat rules kills the game.

Soon I will post a step by step AAR, to see what I'm talking about.

[chaos45]

Yes Ive noticed Pelton using it in my game to herd my units into pockets. When a different retreat rout for the units would have been smarter- doubt there is any real fix for it.

Also maybe you dont see it in 1941- but the German losses are ridiculously low- at no point should the German army be getting over 4M men. The reason its happening is all baked into the system- attrition losses are modified by unit experience is my understanding, and retreat losses are modified by morale- so since German units are much higher morale than soviet units they take significantly less attrition per turn and take less losses on most retreats.

Again equalling A-historical high german CV/army manpower levels. As german morale/experience degrades their losses should increase slowly in 1943 then in 1944 even more...however what in my game play has anything to do with that is my issue? if everything is going to be just auto baked into the system the only thing the soviets are really fighting for is to keep as many hexes as close to berlin as possible. It makes Soviet play nothing but buying time, and I for one dont really care for that, my actions as the player and well planned counterattacks should hurt the Germans and speed up the turn of initiative- not be forced to wait for baked in morale/experience changes.

[HITMAN202]

I've seen a few Soviet players far less skilled than TDV pull a rabbit out of a hat.

[chaos45]

possible yes but leningrad falling on T8 is a massive loss, as Im sure he lost a fair amount of industry not to mention all those units encircled. If this had happened T12 I would still give him a good chance of staying in the game....

T8 though along with a big encirclement in center and another even bigger one in the south- Soviet OOB will be crushed after this and wont recover for months. Going to be hard to stop prevent German further advances/encirclements with only around 3M Soviet troops esp since prolly 300k or so of that number is red airforce and another 500k in Army HQs. his actual combat troops are only going to be around 2M to face the Germans and all their allies for at least the next couple turns if not month.

How much industry have you bagged so far? as in KV factory an such or no- I found in my game that KV factory is actually very important to filling out Soviet tank formations and perhaps more important than T34 factories.

[Callistrid]

TDV and I agree to restart our game from T01, so this game is closed.

I belive this game the german side won, because there is no chance to recover, defend Moscow, and other key cities, avoiding sudden death victory.

Thanks for all comments, and encouragement from WITE community.

[chaos45]

grats on the win- I was uncertain with your start but it paid off well.

[HITMAN202]

TDV pulled a tiger out of a hat. A tiger named Callistrid.

[Callistrid]

I belive TDV just try a new type of strategy, what was flawless, but have some pontential, and need performs repairs.

[chaos45]

Having played through these turns a couple times now against human players.....there is no way the Soviets can get those types of CV that early without stripping other areas of the front/lacking defense in depth.

Especially with HQBU factored in I dont believe any Soviet defense can hold against a concentrated German attack in 1941 just cant be done. The Germans have massive CV and enough MPs to blast through any soviet defensive position. So my take on the Early Soviet turns is delay/delay/delay as your tactic. Stopping the Germans cold you have no chance of really at all if they want the place....aside from Moscow/Leningrad and then its only if you can buy enough time with your delaying actions to get them heavily entrenched/manned.

Even in 1942 I cant stop concentrated German attacks and my units are way better than in 1941.

[Callistrid]

Chaos45, the soviet side need to take care on german rail lines. That is an exact facts, where those FBD's are, so soviet player need to be at least 25 MP from that line during the first 9-10 turn. The german can't do anything, just follow the soviet retreat. Motorized units supplied only by air, are less effective, and they can just use frontal attack.
Good soviet player just take care about the panzers, and fall back, avoiding german infantry attack. Technically you need just to handle with 31 german unit, who's are far from their supply lines.

And after the reinforcements arrives, and soviet army grows to 4,5-5 million, it's time to fight. When I playing with the soviets, I never attack before september, only if I must (breaking pocket, etc...)
The starting soviet forces are relative though, so I try to save them, and promote them to guard status. Just belive what they can do, during winter turns, with 55-65 morale.

[M60A3TTS]

Well done, Callistrid. Now do it again!

[timmyab]

Well done. You win by a knockout.
You're right about Soviet early game strategy. They should stay out of reach of German infantry and defend in multiple layers until late Summer and only then build strong lines in front of Moscow with the intention of slowing them down and eventually stopping them. Soviet defense in 41 should be all about gradually absorbing the shock of the Axis attack.
Will watch the second game with interest. Hopefully he'll give it his best shot this time.

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: Callistrid

TDV and I agree to restart our game from T01, so this game is closed.

I belive this game the german side won, because there is no chance to recover, defend Moscow, and other key cities, avoiding sudden death victory.

Thanks for all comments, and encouragement from WITE community.

well done, you recovered impressively from being stalled and certainly, as with other comments, showed that while the Soviets can delay say around Pskov any attempt to hold that far west is simply doomed once the German infantry and rail heads come into range

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: Callistrid

The game rules works fne, but the retreat system are deadly for soviet side. My micro strategy was to control the soviet retreat zone, or force them to rout by giving ZOC them.
I belive the current retreat rules kills the game.

Soon I will post a step by step AAR, to see what I'm talking about.

I think I have posted what your about to when I done right hooks or late 42 pockets.

Once you figure out what kind of system the other guys is using you can turn it on its head.

As you know Callistrid a little luck is required, but 1 for 3 or even 1 for 5 is still a TKO once the snowball gets rolling.

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: chaos45

Yes Ive noticed Pelton using it in my game to herd my units into pockets. When a different retreat rout for the units would have been smarter- doubt there is any real fix for it.

Also maybe you dont see it in 1941- but the German losses are ridiculously low- at no point should the German army be getting over 4M men. The reason its happening is all baked into the system- attrition losses are modified by unit experience is my understanding, and retreat losses are modified by morale- so since German units are much higher morale than soviet units they take significantly less attrition per turn and take less losses on most retreats.

Again equalling A-historical high german CV/army manpower levels. As german morale/experience degrades their losses should increase slowly in 1943 then in 1944 even more...however what in my game play has anything to do with that is my issue? if everything is going to be just auto baked into the system the only thing the soviets are really fighting for is to keep as many hexes as close to berlin as possible. It makes Soviet play nothing but buying time, and I for one dont really care for that, my actions as the player and well planned counterattacks should hurt the Germans and speed up the turn of initiative- not be forced to wait for baked in morale/experience changes.

I agree BUT Russian loses 42-44 are simply 3x to low. The combat system aka WitW combat system aka WitE 2.0 system are all the same.

The combat engine needs a MAJOR over haul.

The problem is as it works loses are loses men are men ect ect when in fact based on Chaos and my links 5 to 1 in 42 is normal minus all the surrenders

The system sees no difference between German or Russian forces.

Morveal has it right morale is the easy tweak aka fix for devs, but facts are the engine should not be based 99% on morale.

Chaos your on the ball field but in the stands, dig deeper into how the engine works.

You know the basics of history, BUT how do you make it historical ( but player screw ups have to be factored in ) using the current engine?

The basic combat engine is 1000% better then anything out there, but it still needs and HONEST (2BY3) wipe and over haul.

WitW is still = WitE