Scenario 2 economy and airframes/engines

[undercovergeek]

i have a plethora of awesome economy guides and airframe/engine production guides for scenario 1 - are these still valid for scenario 2 or has the whole picture changed?

[Numdydar]

Nothing changes in #2 as far as R&D goes. Japan just starts with more Supplies/Fuel/Oil plus more DDs/LCUs/AC as #2 assumes Japan did a better job of planning for a war with the US. But the economy works the same way in pretty much all the scenarios and mods.

[Lokasenna]

There are more aircraft/engine factories in Scen 2 than in Scen 1 (Sapporo comes to mind immediately, and maybe Harbin has extras as well...). So you have more individual factories, which means you can diversify more or ease your logistics more. The same general principles apply, however if you go really far out there on the R&D (completing a model, switching to a new line and completing that one, then doing it again) you can end up burning many more supplies than you would in Scen 1.

Also, in Scen 2 the only planes to use the Ha-34 engine are the Helen models. The Tojo models, which use the Ha-34 in Scen 1, use the Ha-35 in Scen 2.

[Numdydar]

You also get more pilots in the queue. So your HI costs for pilots will be a lot higher in 2 versus 1. So you need to be really careful on HI usage to account for that.

[n01487477]

ORIGINAL: undercovergeek

i have a plethora of awesome economy guides and airframe/engine production guides for scenario 1 - are these still valid for scenario 2 or has the whole picture changed?

I'll do a detailed work up on it soon, should be available in a week.

[crsutton]

After playing a full campaign as the Allies in scen #2 I can say that the benefits to Japan are basically "front loaded" making 1942 an especially dangerous year. With the added stocks and the addition of a few top notch Japanese infantry divisions the Allied player has to be very careful because they start with the same pitiful OOB. A good Japanese player can really move for knock out blow. However, as the war progresses Japan is pretty much saddled with the same resource flow and this can be problematical. I think it is easy for the Japanese player to overproduce and the extra pilot HI penalty can really hurt. Survive 1942 intact as the Allies and you should still win the game. So I would advise that you as the Japanese player beware of overproduction. Just because you can make 200 Franks a month does not mean it is productive in the end.

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: crsutton
Just because you can make 200 Franks a month does not mean it is productive in the end.

Hard to believe 200 Franks a month won't be productive. [:)]

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

ORIGINAL: crsutton
Just because you can make 200 Franks a month does not mean it is productive in the end.

Hard to believe 200 Franks a month won't be productive. [:)]

Yeah, especially in 1942! [;)]

[rustysi]

ORIGINAL: crsutton

After playing a full campaign as the Allies in scen #2 I can say that the benefits to Japan are basically "front loaded" making 1942 an especially dangerous year. With the added stocks and the addition of a few top notch Japanese infantry divisions the Allied player has to be very careful because they start with the same pitiful OOB. A good Japanese player can really move for knock out blow. However, as the war progresses Japan is pretty much saddled with the same resource flow and this can be problematical. I think it is easy for the Japanese player to overproduce and the extra pilot HI penalty can really hurt. Survive 1942 intact as the Allies and you should still win the game. So I would advise that you as the Japanese player beware of overproduction. Just because you can make 200 Franks a month does not mean it is productive in the end.

Good assessment. But as many of you should be aware the scenario was designed to be played by an experienced Allied player against an AI Japan. Its front loaded to allow Japan to reach its historical sphere without the Allies having to allow that to happen. This way the AI isn't in danger of being broken so much. Recently someone (I believe one of the dev's) was attempting to rewrite the AI scripts to make them more of a challenge and he commented that their wasn't too much he could do with scenario 1 as Japanese assets were just too sparse. Hence the front loading in scen2 to make for a better AI game.

[Numdydar]

I'll have to disagree on that rustysi [:(]

I played as Japan against an experienced Allied player in a PBEM and lost in '45 using Scenario 2. [:(]

Now I did have to pull back in China as I could have easily won an AV in '43 if I had not. We agreed that I would stay south of the river in Southern China and not go any further North than Sian in the middle. This allowed me to have a land connection to Indochina and points South. Even in Scenario 1 China can be overrun pretty easily if Japan wants to make the effort there. Scenario 2 just makes it even easier [:)]

Personally I would never play a PBEM as Japan unless Scenario 2 was used. Simply because it makes the mid-game a lot more fun for both sides [:)]. On the other hand, I would never use Scenario 2 against the Allied AI [:)]

[rustysi]

I see your points Numdydar and I never meant to imply that you couldn't lose as Japan in scen2. I think scen2 puts more pressure on Japan later in the game when the check arrives for the goodies she gets. I guess the AI just cheats(?) around that. Would absolutely never use scen2 against an Allied AI, just as the Allies against the Japanese AI. Heck I'm clocking the Allied AI in my current game (scen1). And no that doesn't make me a hero, its not that hard to do once you learn how to play the game. Hence scen2. And no I'm not trying to 'play' the AI. Yes, there have been times where I say I don't think I should do it quite that way against a live opponent.

Not sure if I would like to use the points to get an AV as Japan, although I realize its the only way to win. I guess using the points system does require the Allies to make some hard strategy choices and that might aid Japan in making historical gains. Not sure on that, but I can see it a bit. I'll get a clearer picture I guess when I try playing as the Allies.

[Numdydar]

Here is how I am doing against the Allied AI on Hard. Dare to compare [;)]

http://operationglacier.baloogancampaign.com/Map?side=Japan&date=440307&game_name=Numdydar

[undercovergeek]

ORIGINAL: n01487477

ORIGINAL: undercovergeek

i have a plethora of awesome economy guides and airframe/engine production guides for scenario 1 - are these still valid for scenario 2 or has the whole picture changed?

I'll do a detailed work up on it soon, should be available in a week.

my plethora is basically all your documents!

[rustysi]

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

Here is how I am doing against the Allied AI on Hard. Dare to compare [;)]

http://operationglacier.baloogancampaign.com/Map?side=Japan&date=440307&game_name=Numdydar

Don't care to get into a mine's bigger than yours' contest.[:D] I'm using my game to learn to play and do's and don'ts. I doubt I'll ever try to take all of China. Not even sure you can without losing out in SRA and other areas you need to conquer and attempt to defend. But I do know one thing I'm thinking once I learn how to play the Allied side you're on. I think we have somewhat similar game likes/dislikes. I'll probably get my head handed to me.[:)] Then again maybe the student will have become the master.[:'(]

[Numdydar]

As long as you are playing any Stock Scenario Japan can overrun China and still have no problem in capturing the historical boundaries. Now if you want to do things outside of the historical advance in Burma/SouPac then China becomes more iffy. But if Japan wants China it is doable as long as Japan commits to it.

Of course in the long run all overrunning China (or anything else for that matter) just means it will take longer for the Allies to win [:(]. To be honest, I think the game should end as soon as any major city in the HI is within B29 range after July '45. Of course if the Allies want to keep playing after that point just to see 'what if', then there should be no atomic bombs dropped in the game at all. Or as soon as two are dropped past July '45 the game ends. So the Allies can control when the game ends. Just an idea that I like to use [:)]

[rustysi]

To be honest, I think the game should end as soon as any major city in the HI is within B29 range after July '45. Of course if the Allies want to keep playing after that point just to see 'what if', then there should be no atomic bombs dropped in the game at all. Or as soon as two are dropped past July '45 the game ends. So the Allies can control when the game ends. Just an idea that I like to use

But that's when the AFB's have their 'fun' time, kicking Japans' butt. You want to eliminate their joy?[:D]

[Numdydar]

AFBs fun should start around mid '43 and gets better from there [:)]. It just depends on how much 'fun' a Japanese player can stand from that point on [:(]

Although I will admit there is a quite a few of 'Holy crap' moments when the combat replays begin for Japan in '44+. Given the massive scale the Allies can operate in from that point on.

[Cavalry Corp]

I am playing scn 2 pbem 2 day turns now in mid DEC 43 and have most all the KB intact and the allies lost most of their CV in 42. 43 for Japan becomes very tough actually.

I have expanded the shipyards a lot so built a lot of ships in 42/43.I have turned them down now as I have built much of the important stuff. I did not expanded the merch and I have never enough TK that was a mistake.
You can never seem to get enough res in to Japan to serve all the industry especially when its expanded.
I am still not able to halt the slow allied advance into the PI from OZ - we are now in mid Dec 43 ( oil tankers etc getting trashed as well by raiding allied DD) We are having massive air battles over Manila etc. Its a lot of fun actually. The allied player seemed to make a good call in doing this as he uses the LBA to trash everything.
Allies on full offensive in Burma after retaking Sri Lanka in summer 42
Allied subs are taking a big toll on everything all the time.
Allied naval losses have been very heavy in BB and CV. Japan has lost a lot as well including most of our CA. The only CV I have lost X 3 CV (KAGA, JUNYO) and 2 CVL have been to LBA.

OIL is very short and Fuel is low no matter how much I try and ship but we fight on.

Finding odd moments to send in the KB to cull allied shipping but its never enough.

Scn 2 is great - I have a game of scn 1 - That is very dreary. Also have a game of RA ( I am playing allies) that is pretty interesting as Japan reaches full naval strength in 43

[crsutton]

Funny how it works but good Japanese play can be costly. If Japan has all of her carriers and BBs intact late in the game they can prove to be a big drain on already taxed fuel supplies. Course, that would be a problem that I would like to have to deal with...

[Cavalry Corp]

that is correct - I have tons of ships but using them has to be considered by the end of 43