Callistrid vs TDV vol2

[Callistrid]

T05 Center-North

HI destroyed: 23
Arm industry destroyed: 20


The 2nd and 3rd Panzer army break the Dnieper line, and encircle the southern wing of main defense line. The pockets are not secured well, but need other support to break it. In that case my troops will encircle those units next turn.
West from Smolensk, 9 soviet divisions retreat was is blocked, forcing TDV to stay, and fight next turn. Or fall back, but loose some unit.

The 4th Panzer army crossed around Pskov, and encircle the the Northwestern front. Here the soviets will break the isolation, but they are trapped, and can't fall back. They way to Leningrad is open, so TDV need to build a new frontline.

[Callistrid]

T05 South

TVs southern front collapse. His strategy on center needs most of the useful soviet troops, and the newly recruited, low experienced divisions can't hold against the germans.
Like in our last game, I find the weakest defense point, and overwhelm it.

[Callistrid]

T05 OOB as casulties

On T05 I circled around 20 division (plus 10-12 brigade), with no chance to being liberated, and another 30-35 who will be supplied next turn, but blocking their retreat line.

The soviet casualties are 25 % higher than the average T05 loses.

[Peltonx]

He seems to be making the same mistakes ohh how the elite have fallen.

he got use to a WoS from Pskov to the land bridge, which simply is not possible now and can not seem to let go of the strategy.

Good job taking advantage of what you have been given.

[Callistrid]

Yep, he's doing the same mistakes.

TDV's defense strategy doesn't work. His idea is to build a strong 3 stack strong frontline + 2 reserve units, and 3rd defense line, where units could retreat, and frontline units gains the early 4-8 CV strong tank divisions. But that defense line can't work due lack of units. He can be strong in one front, but not in all.

Handle his army need only to encircle as many troops it's possible, and stay close to my rail line. During turn by turn, if he loose 7-12 division, his army will collapse around T8-10.


And in the WITE the 5th turn is critical, because the FBD units repair line reach the frontline, in all zone, and panzers could stay within 10 hex, from the supply sources. That means they start with 30-50 MP, and we not talked about HQBU.

All my three breakthrough was launched against the weakest points, where my infantry + motorized divisions fight just against 1-2 weak soviet division, and the infantry divisions could clear the way crossing the river.

Unit with 1 CV units, can't be effective defending behind the river, when infantry divisions have enough MP to attack deliberate.

[MattFL]

ORIGINAL: Pelton

He seems to be making the same mistakes ohh how the elite have fallen.

he got use to a WoS from Pskov to the land bridge, which simply is not possible now and can not seem to let go of the strategy.

Good job taking advantage of what you have been given.

he got use to a WoS from Pskov to the land bridge, which simply is not possible now and can not seem to let go of the strategy. Good job taking advantage of what you have been given.

I 100% disagree with you. The wall of steel from PSKOV to land bridge is absolutely possible. He's just not doing it right at all. Has way too many units stacked at the landbridge and landbridge line is the wrong place, way too many units behind the lines not doing anything, and his northern PSKOV line is way too weak given it's proximity to the panzers. And he is backing up each turn (so it appears) which means he's giving up his forts. He is also seemingly defending in the clear behind minor river at Pskov when he has swamp hexes (which are basically free forts) right in front which are much better hexes to defend in.

From my perspective, the key to the wall of steel from PSKOV to Landbridge and Dnepr is full commitment of forces in the lines (front row and hex behind) with a few units out in front, using the swamps/mountains as strong points, and fort levels. Look at his landbridge CV levels - I see full stacks of 12 or so. The lines needs to be forward with LVL 1-2 forts and CV's of 30 plus. Along the Dnepr the CV's should be in the 15-20 range. He has triple stacks in hexes which can only be attacked from a single hex and he has single counters in hexes which can be attacked from 3 hexes. Makes no sense.

As you can see, he has reserve forces north of Smolensk prepping a 2nd line I assume or to prevent a deep breakthrough. If you are assuming a German breakthrough than you shouldn't be stacking at all as you're just giving units away. Either stop the breakthrough or fall back, but he's got a combination of both going on and thus neither works.

And to clarify, I'm not suggesting you can stop the GHC with WoS. I'm saying that you have to make them pay to break it and not give away large free encirclements. If you're going to triple stack you best be damn sure you won't get encircled along massive sections of the front. If there is a weak point, as there obviously was in these cases, then the entire thing is compromised from the start.

[Callistrid]

WoS can't work against concentrated panzer divisions. If the german player (like I did) focus his motorized units, plus he has infantry support, the soviet side must to retreat.

Just imagine what can do 20 motorized unit with 40-50 MP

[MattFL]

I'm not saying it will stop the German player, but what you are saying is that anytime you face that many mobile units with infantry support you have no choice but to run. I disagree. SHC should know when he can defend and when he must run. But there is no rule to run simply because GHC is present in strength. Rather, GHC should get their turn back and look at a continuous hex line of high CV and have to grind their way through it. Sure they can get through, but at what cost? Look at your breakthroughs here - they're all wide and deep with tons of units through and absolutely no hope of breaking the encirclements. Against a proper defense it would be much more narrow, probably a single hex breakthrough which can be broken, possibly cut off spearheads wasting more time to clean up, etc... The overall result will be the same, you'll get across the river or through the WoS, the difference being how long it takes to achieve it and at what cost not to mention forcing the GHC to fight it out gives you time to build the next line. Here he has no chance of building the next line and it becomes almost impossible to break the cycle of encirclements. NOW he REALLY has to run....But he put himself in that situation not by staying and fighting but by staying and fighting with a porous defense.

In order to achieve encirclement you have to break the line at two points. If you're breaking the line against 30+ CV stacks and back up units opening a wide gap (so in theory shifting 2-6 hexes of 30+ CV) using 20+ Motor and infantry support, i'll gladly accept the loss of whatever you encircle and call you daddy. [;)] But that's not what happened here...what happened here is that you were gifted these encirclements, particularly along the rivers, by poor SHC defense. Crossing the Dnepr should be at best a grind for the GHC and in both the north and south Dnepr in your AAR he just gave it to you. Your answer is he should have run. Mine is he should have defended it correctly......

[Callistrid]

T06 North-Center Front

TDV play the same game, what was really effective. New troops were encircled, and the soviet frontline hold their line, and attack the german. The casualties were relatively high, but the close soviet troops gives chance to encircle more units, when my FBD repair the rail lines.

[Callistrid]

T06 South

TDVs moves was unexpected, and disastrous. He decide to hold the line, but with my panzer reserve, his army was encircled, and the soviet southern front collapsed.

24 division had been encircled, and next turn massive reinforcements need, if he want to stop me.

[Callistrid]

T06 OOB, and casualties


TDV's looses are high, and next turn 43 division will be eliminated. On T07, his looses will be more then 2 million men, so would be a miracle to survive the next 10 clear turn.

[Callistrid]

TDV's southern front before if encircle it. I have no idea why he remained, and allowed my to eliminate his front. Perhaps, he it did not matter my panzer reserve, far from the frontline. Those 50 MP units collapsed his frontline.

[schascha]

Ouch !!!!

Comminng sooon the vol...3 !!!

[smokindave34]

I don't see any way he can survive this - those losses are extremely high for this early on. Nicely done!

As the Soviet you are making a huge mistake if you are not identifying every axis mobile unit at the start of your turn. Knowing where these units are in relation to the axis rail lines will tell you when to fall back and when to hold the line. I've played TDV before and he is a solid player but once the axis rail lines catch up and the panzers have 30+ MP's it's time to head east.

[charlie0311]

Faaabulous AAR. Watch out, Pelton (the mighty), this guy may take your spot...

ps, you might get more fuel to the Panzers if you put the ab next to the HQ, then fly the fuel (manual method) to the HQ. It will show up as increased fuel dumps, then to go to the xx's during sov logistics. Not totally sure, am practicing the sov side these days. If this is correct you won't have to waste gas moving back up to the front.

[MattFL]

I think it's pretty easy to look the part of Guderian against SHC setups as faulty as the ones in this game have been. Callistrad is playing well for sure, but he's just exploiting what he's being given. I really do like Callistrid's use of the reserve panzer division(s) for follow up breakthroughs. This is smart as for most GHC it's tempting to use everything. Of course, the encirclements here have been so easy there probably isn't a need to use everything... Which makes smokindave's comment all the more true, you must identify where the mobile formations are at all times. However, I do disagree with pretty much everyone that you have to withdraw when you face large mobile formations with good movement. It's much more situational than this and if you have the CV and fort levels, I welcome having the GHC Armor have to bash their way through. Nothing stalls an offensive more than failed encirclement attempts and nothing wears down the GHC faster than massive battles against heavily fortified SHC units. Forts are the great force multiplier and when you have them you can stand anywhere. Only when you don't must you run....To me, managing forts is the single key to playing the SHC....essentially doubles or more your army in its effectiveness.

I'd really like to try a game against GHC as good as Callistrad or Pelton or any of the German players who really get how to play the GHC. So far my SHC strategies have been extremely successful, but perhaps I'm playing the wrong people! To me, the fundamental difference between the good GHC and the average is managing supply and the ability (or recognition) to get infantry east quickly. If you can't do these two things, then SHC can probably use the defense I use with great success. Or perhaps the defense I use is actually a good one. Just no way to tell without playing against the best!

[MattFL]

Wow, SHC OOB at 3.7 million. Not sure I've ever seen it this low at this point.... SHC is incredibly resilient though, so we'll see. Obviously if he keeps doing what he's doing then no chance at all. Callistrad needs to avoid the temptation to try to exploit every single area where he conceivably could exploit. Basically he could go anywhere with success, the danger is trying to do too much I think. If he maintains focus on whatever objectives he has or changes focus based on the current situation to simply destroying more SHC, then no chance at all for SHC.

[chaos45]

mattp- relying on forts doesnt work against Pelton- many, many battles ive seen lvl 2/3 forts dropped to 0 in one assault and have no effect on the battle.

He loads most of his spearhead divisions with 2-3 engineer battalions each and his engineer factor makes your forts a non-issue. Its abit unhistorical as the Forts should still have an effect even if reduced but the end result in the game is against those types of attacks you will inflict some heavier losses on the Germans but still lose the hex. You can see it in effect even in 1942 in our game were he has breached my lines several times now when I had a 2-3 layer defense all in Lvl 2 forts. Level 3 forts really are rare now- as you have to be on the frontline or have a fortzone in the hex to build up to lvl 3. An even then Ive had his engineers drop lvl 3 to 0 effect in one assault.

Now all of his units wont have this capability but he makes extremely effective use out of it. Not saying forts are useless but against the right set up they can have reduced effectiveness. Terrain is much better- would rather have woods/rough over a lvl 1-2 fort in all honesty as his engineers cant nullify terrain. Its why the South is where the Germans play in 1942 is very limited terrain there to help the Soviet defense, only good thing is the Germans have the same problem against Soviet counterattacks.

[MattFL]

Chaos, a few follow ups....

1. Terrain is of course assumed. If you aren't utilizing and fighting in the best terrain (plus forts) then you're dead anyway. So use of terrain was assumed in my post. There are some places where you have no choice but to have part of your line be Clear. But you have to minimize those (well, except along the Dnepr or major river).

2. You're sort of missing the point. I've said several time in discussing this that the GHC can take any hex it wants. But they can't take every hex. So while they can break through a highly fortified hex in good terrain, they can't break through all of them. Thus with good defense the penetrations are much more narrow and as long as you hold the shoulders of the penetration you can force the GHC to fight it out over several turns to get their encirclement with zoc locked supply etc. And while that fighting is going on, you are building the next line of forts so that when the GHC cleans it up they have to repeat the process.

3. It's situational of course. You have to know when you can stand in fight and when you can't. In this game, SHC was in no position to stand and fight and he did. So yeah, he should have run and I would have too. You simply can't have CV's of 10 with some 1's out in front and expect to live. His CV is really low across the entire front even in his triple stacks. Those stacks should be in the 30's minimum but he's nowhere near that...

It's not about stopping the Germans, you can't in 1941. It's about making it painful and time consuming. If the GHC is constantly having to come to grips with high CV hexes they still get their encirclements, but the cost is higher. And you have to avoid as much as possible giving away the type of cheap, low cost encirclements that are the norm in this AAR.

[chaos45]

Look forward to seeing your AAR vs Pelton in the future. Getting 30 CV for Soviets in 1941....is well.....Not going to say its impossible but it will really only be in select locations. My understanding if you look at old AARs the game has changed a ton since then...and from my experience of 3x .04 starts getting anything near those CVs seems about impossible at least for any lengthy stretch of the front against anywhere near competent German play.

You can do what TD did and have grouping of high Cv but like in this game the Germans just go around, so it really isnt the best defense strategy at current in this version of the game.

Even in Summer of 1942- with over 70 Corps in my force I couldnt dream of 30+CV everywhere.

I found that you are often struggling just to build a front line that isnt giving up pockets in most of 1941. As having even a double stacked line is a luxory that will most often just give more units into a pocket eventually.