Did I wake that giant AGAIN? vicberg(j) vs. BillBrown(A) - No Bill Pls

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vicberg
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RE: Did I wake that giant AGAIN? vicberg(j) vs. BillBrown(A) - No Bill Pls

Post by vicberg »

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

Bomb away all supply generation in Chungking and continue bombarding and bombing the airfield. He wont be able to keep all those units supplied with what is autogenerated, let alone use the replacements.It just takes time. This would be a long siege, you are looking on several months before you can seriously think about deliberate attacks to chip away at forts.

That's the plan. I'll move out and let my divisions replenish and continue to take supply out. It's good experience while I'm waiting for the Helen II.
GetAssista
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RE: Did I wake that giant AGAIN? vicberg(j) vs. BillBrown(A) - No Bill Pls

Post by GetAssista »

ORIGINAL: vicberg
...and strange rule...if you cross you have to shock attack even if you already have units on the other side of the river and already own the hex side), makes no sense whatsoever. "Hey guys, we already have a bridgehead, why are you attacking?" "Because we have too, no choice"
No, it's not strange or stupid. You crossed with too much AV compared to what was already there. This required rapid bridgehead expansion to fit all new troops in, hence shock attack. If you crossed with <30% of AV already there it would all be fine.
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SqzMyLemon
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RE: Did I wake that giant AGAIN? vicberg(j) vs. BillBrown(A) - No Bill Pls

Post by SqzMyLemon »

ORIGINAL: GetAssista
ORIGINAL: vicberg
...and strange rule...if you cross you have to shock attack even if you already have units on the other side of the river and already own the hex side), makes no sense whatsoever. "Hey guys, we already have a bridgehead, why are you attacking?" "Because we have too, no choice"
No, it's not strange or stupid. You crossed with too much AV compared to what was already there. This required rapid bridgehead expansion to fit all new troops in, hence shock attack. If you crossed with <30% of AV already there it would all be fine.

There is so much confusion regarding river crossings. Let me try to help.

The first time you perform a river assault across a hex side the result is a shock attack...period. To avoid any further shock attacks across the same hex side you must have initially crossed the hex side with no less than 1/3 of the defenders unadjusted AV. In this case looking at the numbers from your combat, you would have had to make an initial attack with 2110 AV to avoid further shock attacks from follow up troops across the same hex side. This will remain the case until that 1/3 threshold is met. So unless you have another 2200 AV to cross the same hex side, you will always have subsequent shock attacks through this hex side, or any other one, with anything less than 2200 AV. Hope this helps clarify river crossings somewhat.

Taking Chungking requires patience. Once supply is gone the Chinese defence will simply erode. You attacked too soon and didn't let lack of supply become a factor. It takes months to reduce the combat effectiveness of a defence through lack of supply. If the Chinese AV is increasing, it is from recovering disablements. Recovering disablements does not use supply. I do agree though, a hex that over stacked should see a (-)disruption modifier applied to the Chinese, why is wasn't in this case is beyond me.

I hope this helps.
Luck is the residue of design - John Milton

Don't mistake lack of talent for genius - Peter Steele (Type O Negative)
vicberg
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RE: Did I wake that giant AGAIN? vicberg(j) vs. BillBrown(A) - No Bill Pls

Post by vicberg »

Forts weren't carried through in the code with stacking limits. I'll be able to prove this next turn. They are protecting all 300k of troops. Thus no disruption.
vicberg
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RE: Did I wake that giant AGAIN? vicberg(j) vs. BillBrown(A) - No Bill Pls

Post by vicberg »

Thanks. I didn't know the 1/3 rule for river crossings. Good to know
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witpqs
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RE: Did I wake that giant AGAIN? vicberg(j) vs. BillBrown(A) - No Bill Pls

Post by witpqs »

The stacking limit will ensure that the troops in Chungking have little to no supply at all. Below the stacking limit but with supply they would fight better. Look at my AAR to see how Walter broke down Chungking.

What do you mean by the "350 replacement rule"?
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Lowpe
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RE: Did I wake that giant AGAIN? vicberg(j) vs. BillBrown(A) - No Bill Pls

Post by Lowpe »

And that river crossing is per hexside...once you close a hexside, the defenders can't escape that way or supplies flow that way. So for Chungking, you only need to close once.

I am no expert on overstacking, but the penalties as I understand them are higher supply usage and greater disruption. I believe all defenders will get the benefits of the existing forts.

Also note that the respawning Chinese troops are simply the infantry type devices. No heavy weapons.

You can fly some divebombers in, or fly a squadron at 2000 feet, to see how much supply is left in the troops as they will fire their machine guns at you (if they have them).

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Lowpe
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RE: Did I wake that giant AGAIN? vicberg(j) vs. BillBrown(A) - No Bill Pls

Post by Lowpe »

ORIGINAL: witpqs

The stacking limit will ensure that the troops in Chungking have little to no supply at all. Below the stacking limit but with supply they would fight better. Look at my AAR to see how Walter broke down Chungking.

What do you mean by the "350 replacement rule"?

I think he means the monthly infantry squad replacement rate?
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Lowpe
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RE: Did I wake that giant AGAIN? vicberg(j) vs. BillBrown(A) - No Bill Pls

Post by Lowpe »

Also in this case, troops without supply will get penalized, but it may very well be totally offset by the forts and HQ bonus, depending upon rolls, disruption and disablements, etc. No supply doesn't mean they won't fight.

Every day you want to disable Chinese troops thru bombing and bombarding, because then they are combat ineffective. Disabled troops with no supply can die each day too.
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witpqs
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RE: Did I wake that giant AGAIN? vicberg(j) vs. BillBrown(A) - No Bill Pls

Post by witpqs »

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

ORIGINAL: witpqs

The stacking limit will ensure that the troops in Chungking have little to no supply at all. Below the stacking limit but with supply they would fight better. Look at my AAR to see how Walter broke down Chungking.

What do you mean by the "350 replacement rule"?

I think he means the monthly infantry squad replacement rate?
That takes supply and then the troops just pulled from the replacement pool need supply. Plus replacements are always at the national minimum for experience (not tracked for individual squads, they just pull down the unit experience).
vicberg
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RE: Did I wake that giant AGAIN? vicberg(j) vs. BillBrown(A) - No Bill Pls

Post by vicberg »

Yes, I'm talking about the 350 monthly replacement rate.

I don't know. The Chinese seemed pretty combat effective to me, in spite of supply(-) coming up and no disruption penalty and 90% over-stacked.

I'll be fine. This just brought back all the reasons I stopped the game. Wonderful naval and air systems and a very questionable ground combat system, which is far, far too bloody and extreme for a single day of war. "Hey guys, attack today and I'll know you'll be tired so go to the beach and take the next couple of days off. We have some keggers setup there. There's volleyball nets next to the keggers", which is exactly how battles play out in this combat system all because disruption/fatigue/casualties are way too high for a single day of battle.
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SqzMyLemon
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RE: Did I wake that giant AGAIN? vicberg(j) vs. BillBrown(A) - No Bill Pls

Post by SqzMyLemon »

ORIGINAL: vicberg

I don't know. The Chinese seemed pretty combat effective to me, in spite of supply(-) coming up and no disruption penalty and 90% over-stacked.

Rule of thumb, a unit with no supply will always be able to use 25% of it's AV in battle. So yes, even though the Chinese may not have supply, their strength will always be a minimum of .25 times the AV total.

I agree, the land model isn't the greatest. Learn it, know it, live it. [8D]
Luck is the residue of design - John Milton

Don't mistake lack of talent for genius - Peter Steele (Type O Negative)
vicberg
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RE: Did I wake that giant AGAIN? vicberg(j) vs. BillBrown(A) - No Bill Pls

Post by vicberg »

Yep, realizing that. Would love to halve the effects of combat for a single day and leave the supply costs the same. This would bring this entire china theater back to reality as well as bringing some reality to the land combat model in general. It's taken 500k of supply to get this far in my game. Would I do it if it took 1 million? Probably not. Plus with this game as FOW heavy as it is, it really needs a probe attack.
GetAssista
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RE: Did I wake that giant AGAIN? vicberg(j) vs. BillBrown(A) - No Bill Pls

Post by GetAssista »

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon
There is so much confusion regarding river crossings. Let me try to help.
Thanks. It nagged me that something was wrong in my understanding after I posted the comment )
ORIGINAL: vicberg
I don't know. The Chinese seemed pretty combat effective to me, in spite of supply(-) coming up and no disruption penalty and 90% over-stacked.
Just bomb and wait. Not all of them are at zero supply yet. Plus morale will go down the drain eventually w/o supplies and under fire.
vicberg
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RE: Did I wake that giant AGAIN? vicberg(j) vs. BillBrown(A) - No Bill Pls

Post by vicberg »

June 28th, 1942

I launched a ground bombardment against Chungking with 180 bombers. I did a massive 200 casualties. So, the level 6 forts are protecting the entire 300k of troops there.

I have 6 Sentai in Hankow, 4 Sentai in Wuchang, 2 Sentai in Changsha and 2 Chutai in Kweiyang. That's potentially 300 bombers, but not ever quite that much do to losses and repairs. They will all continue their bombardments of Chungking while my army repairs. There's also another 5 Sentai out of Takao that will bombard Wenchow.

9 divisions are all pretty much smashed as a result of the last attack. More reinforcements moving to the area, but I'm really not convinced much can be done for Chungking or Wenchow either. I killed too many Chinese units too quickly and they are all magically popping up in Chungking. 30 corp multiplied by 200-300 AV each (1/3 of their potential) = 6000-9000 AV not including forts. Once forts are built up you can't dismantle them from the air. The only way is to launch very bloody ground attacks against them. No way. If I attempt to conquer China again (which is doubtful), I'll need to make sure to not destroy Chinese units along the way. Wenchow is playing out very similar to Chungking. Same things have been happening. He's been over-stacked at Wenchow by 25% the entire game but it hasn't had an affect. Stacking limits haven't been programmed very well throughout the game and it's really showing.

So, live it, love it (NOT) and move on. At this point, I'll move off divisions Chungking to support the 25th and defend the nearby bases. Same with Wenchow. Let him come out. If he comes out, I'll have a chance to smash his units from the air and on the ground. The 1st and Second Armored divisions are available now. I'll assemble them in Kweiyang and most likely send them both to Burma. Chungking and Wenchow will both become containment.

The ground combat system wins.

GetAssista
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RE: Did I wake that giant AGAIN? vicberg(j) vs. BillBrown(A) - No Bill Pls

Post by GetAssista »

ORIGINAL: vicberg
I launched a ground bombardment against Chungking with 180 bombers. I did a massive 200 casualties. So, the level 6 forts are protecting the entire 300k of troops there.
Bombing is not for casualties, but for supply exhaustion hitting the airfield. Can be done using crappy obsolete planes too. Forts were 9 in some of the sieges in the AARs, still defenders will bite the dust eventually against smaller force.
ORIGINAL: vicberg
At this point, I'll move off divisions Chungking to support the 25th and defend the nearby bases. Same with Wenchow. Let him come out. If he comes out, I'll have a chance to smash his units from the air and on the ground.
I'd say you will be better off by having some IDs left in Chungking and Wenchow hexes with taking control of all the hexsides, so that Chinese are completely surrounded, can't be in rest mode and can't have freedom of movement so you dont have to have defences all over the neighborhood. Your IDs can get to 4+ forts plus hex defence bonus, so it's very dodgy for Chinese to try attacks given their supply situation, even with vast numerical advantage. Wenchow can also be bombarded from the sea with whatever surface ships available with no risk and very modest fuel costs
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Lowpe
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RE: Did I wake that giant AGAIN? vicberg(j) vs. BillBrown(A) - No Bill Pls

Post by Lowpe »

Everyone that has taken Chungking has overcome the exact problems you outline. High forts. Respawning infantry. Better prep.

And yet somehow, we were able to do it. You can do it too.

300 bombers causing 200 losses sounds about right given the paucity of information you have provided. You should be able to bomb at 7K. You will increase the losses as the defenders deteriorate. Increasing damage is also a function of your game play: air hq? adequate runways and aviation support, short distance, generous supply, good leaders, good pilots, high detection level, good weather (very iffy around Chungking).

You seem intent on knocking the game engine instead of understanding it and working with it. If you don't understand the game mechanics and adapt your tactics accordingly, you are in for a long disappointing road -- especially as Japan.





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witpqs
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RE: Did I wake that giant AGAIN? vicberg(j) vs. BillBrown(A) - No Bill Pls

Post by witpqs »

In case you aren't yet - recon Chungking too to help your bombers (and ground attacks).
vicberg
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RE: Did I wake that giant AGAIN? vicberg(j) vs. BillBrown(A) - No Bill Pls

Post by vicberg »

1) Bombing runs at 6k, been at 6k since beginning of game.
2) Doing recon on Chungking, lots of it and have been
3) Good Air Support and Air HQ
4) Best leaders I have (not saying much for Army)
5) Pilot quality isn't great (about 65 average)

My rants about the engine are over. Don't like it, but have to live with it. I'll take advice and leave divs in Chungking and keep at it until it's starts degrading.
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Blind Sniper
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RE: Did I wake that giant AGAIN? vicberg(j) vs. BillBrown(A) - No Bill Pls

Post by Blind Sniper »

Great AAR Vic, and I hope to give you a challenge in our game too! [;)]
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