Matrix : Please "tweak" the victory conditions.

Uncommon Valor: Campaign for the South Pacific covers the campaigns for New Guinea, New Britain, New Ireland and the Solomon chain.

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Knavey
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Post by Knavey »

Originally posted by Feinder
Remember, all we're talking about here, is arbitrary assignment of Victory Points, and how many are necessary to win.

Strictly speaking, all you really have to to do adjust the "difficulty level" is to simply handicap the number of points.

The theater, battle, or even genra makes no difference. For example, lets step away from UV, and create Oleg's "Battle of the Bulge"...

Our made-up game is the Battle of the Bulge. There are multiple scenarios within the game. One is a quick training scenario that only includes Peiper's drive towards Malmady. Here is a paradox situation, because while the Germans lost the BotB, we can take this small snap-shot, turn it into a scneario for the German player, and allow the opportunity for "victory", because we don't actually play the entire BotB. This is an "easy" scenario for the German player, because historically, Peiper had no trouble at all reaching Malmedy. It was close to Stavelot where he actually started having problems. The game includes a historically accurate OB, so again it is basically a forgone conclusion that the German player going to capture Malmedy. For the Allied player however, it is an excersise in frustration. He knows he's very, extremely, almost certainly, -NOT- going to be able to hold Malmedy. The scenario terminates before Patton shows up. It's simply a matter of how long he delay the German player.

So how do you get anyone (besides the punishment freaks) to ever want to play the Allied player? You screw with the VPs and time required to achieve victory.

Let's say Pieper reached Malmedy in 4 days. The vanilla scenario requires Pieper to capture Malmedy in 3 days or less for the win, 4 for the draw. Or if the Allied player can hold Malmedy thru the 5 day, he is awarded the victory because he has managed to do better than his historical counterpart. The Allied player can "win" even tho he's doomed to ultimately lose Malmedy.

The next is handicapping.

Lets say whatever battle were representing was a total catasrophie for one side. Example, Fredericksburg. A Union player -KNOWS- not to "charge up the hill to the wall" and get his men slaughtered. The map is large enough so that, if he wants to he can march around and flank Lee every time and thus win because he didn't recreate a blunder of history. In this case, using history as a draw is lopsided for the Union, because the Union player knows not to be incredibly stupid, and by simply not being a moron, they now win every time.

This is where the playtesters come in. They've played the game, and know what is a reasonable outcome between 2 relatively equal opponents. The victory conditions are adjusted so that the Union has to capture MORE ground than historical, or perhaps in a shorter period of time.

In UV, we're at the point of handicapping. We've all played UV, and the general consensus is that pretty much, the USN wins all the time (against a reasonably matched human opponent). We're -all- playtestors, and most of us agree that the best chance for an IJN victory is thru the auto-victory, and most of don't even like that. The IJN player is like the Allied player in BotB game. It's an excersize in damage control. The weight of the USN will most likely crush him eventually. So how do you "keep the game interesting" for the IJN player?

Without ever changing his OB, there are all sorts of ways.

Just for example, you could :
Give IJN more points for holding his bases.
Give USN less point for caturing them.
Give IJN more points for killing an American CV.
Give IJN 2 points for every B-17 shot down (just an example, because they're so darned tough *chuckle*)
Make the point range such that, a larger margin is required by the US player to "win", and less for the IJN player.
Give IJN player a vp for every pilot at the end of the game with exp > 80.
The options are endless.

Again, all we're doing is playing with the numbers. The whole assignement of VPs is strictly arbitrary. The whole point is to help to create a situation where the IJN player is -ALLOWED- to play a defensive game (which makes total sense, because he's (likely) going to eventually be overwhelmed by the USN eventually), and still have a reasonable chance of winning. The IJN player should never have to to take PM or GG or Luganville in order to win. He should be able to make a "fighting withdrawl" up the Slot and NG, with the intent to bog down the USN player (and/or generate more casuaties), and have a chance at winning.

-F-


He's a smart one...yes he is...any thoughts from Matrix on this?
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Drex
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Post by Drex »

Of course Feinder's points are applicable to all WWII wargames,since the Allies were destined to win. Except Pacwar was a japanese win due to unhistorical gameplay. It could have been modified according to Feinder"s ideas. i hope Matrix can incorporate this refined scoring procedure.
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pasternakski
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Post by pasternakski »

Originally posted by Drex
Of course Feinder's points are applicable to all WWII wargames,since the Allies were destined to win. Except Pacwar was a japanese win due to unhistorical gameplay. It could have been modified according to Feinder"s ideas. i hope Matrix can incorporate this refined scoring procedure.


The perception is that all historical situations are inherently imbalanced. Somebody won. To simulate them in a satisfactory way for gameplayers means that you either have to superimpose victory conditions that make the game balanced or destroy the historical simulation in order to give the players an even chance to win.

It's not "scoring." It's "historical simulation gaming." Some of us have been at it now for 40 years and understand it. Give it a try. It works. The only failures are incompetent designers, indifferent players, and insufficient commentators.
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rich91a
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A point missing there

Post by rich91a »

Pasternakski,

A major part of this thread is about challenge and competition leading to involvement and enjoyment.

This is competitive historical simulation gaming.

Trying to beat your opponent's performance and your own previous performances.

The aim here is to remodel the current victory points / conditions to enhance challenge and replayability, increasing involvement and enjoyment.

The best way I can think of doing this would be to:

Code the editor to allow victory point values to be editable.

Set the IJN auto-victory condition as an option.
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Subchaser
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Post by Subchaser »

Sorry this is a little bit out of topic, concerning Drex statement

<And though Barbarossa was not doomed from the start, its chances of success were diminished when the Allies(US) started running supplies into Murmansk.>

I think this is almost correct, if you’ll cut off ‘into Murmansk’. Soviet successes in 1942-43 relied on material basis, 60% of which were Allied supplies. Offensive abilities of Soviet Army in 1944 were almost on 50% based on US supplies (strategic raw-materials and transport vehicles primary).
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Post by Mike_B20 »

Victory or defeat to me are measured in how successfully I can achieve my short term and long term objectives and how successfully I can deny my opponent his.

I've never really payed much attention to end of game victory/defeat status and the idea of picking up a base to trigger an automatic victory has absolutely no appeal to me.

One of the things making UV such a fun game is every turn contains many minor events adding up to a pretty convincing recreation of what it must have felt to be a commander in the South Pacific.
Can I build up that base and defend it?
Can I resupply another base without losing too many ships in the process?
etc

I think if both players can have a good challenging contest it doesn't really matter who officially wins. It is up to the players themselves to judge how they went.
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Oleg Mastruko
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Post by Oleg Mastruko »

Originally posted by Subchaser
Sorry this is a little bit out of topic, concerning Drex statement

<And though Barbarossa was not doomed from the start, its chances of success were diminished when the Allies(US) started running supplies into Murmansk.>

I think this is almost correct, if you’ll cut off ‘into Murmansk’. Soviet successes in 1942-43 relied on material basis, 60% of which were Allied supplies. Offensive abilities of Soviet Army in 1944 were almost on 50% based on US supplies (strategic raw-materials and transport vehicles primary).


This is way off topic but I can't let it pass...

First off, I think better part of Allied Soviet supplies went in actually by the way of Vladivostok (not Murmansk), with silent consent of the Japanese (who didn't want to annoy the Soviets too much, they didn't need another enemy at the time). This is historically much less "glamorous" way of entry when compared with eventful and dramatical Murmansk run, but it was more useful. And let's not forget the Iran way too.

Some Barbarossa scenarios over-rate the German (possible) capture of Murmansk. Even if it was captured supplies would have been brought in via Vladivostok and Iran.

And as of Murmansk - Royal Navy bore the brunt of the action there (although most of supplies themselves were from US of course) so they deserve at least a "honorable mention", don't they? :)

Just to add - it is my belief Soviets would win eventually, even without US help, just as US would win the Pacific War evetually even if the Midway went the other way, or without atomic bomb. It would take longer but they would win.

O.
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Post by kentaggie »

1) The auto victory conditions are ridiculous for the reasons mentioned in the previous posts - Just because Luganville or Brisbane is taken the US doesn't just pull out of SWPAC. Way too gamey.

2) Why does everyone play the ahistorical #17 & 19? Because they are the most balanced scenarios in the game! Even with that if the USN survives the uber-IJN CV TF for the first 3 months w/out losing much, they will slowly gain the advantage. By mid '43, for the most part, the writing is on the wall. I have read post after post and after action reports galore to know that once the Heavy bombers and Corsairs arrive in numbers - and are used correctly - than its all over exept the cryin'.

Don't get me wrong. I love this game! But the reason we play these games are to measure ourselves against history. I think I could do better, even against impossible odds. Base objectives on that, not some gamey move on December 31.

BTW, While I agree Japan was doomed, Germany came **** close to succeeding. What if Moscow fell?
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Drex
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Post by Drex »

Originally posted by kentaggie
1) The auto victory conditions are ridiculous for the reasons mentioned in the previous posts - Just because Luganville or Brisbane is taken the US doesn't just pull out of SWPAC. Way too gamey.

2) Why does everyone play the ahistorical #17 & 19? Because they are the most balanced scenarios in the game! Even with that if the USN survives the uber-IJN CV TF for the first 3 months w/out losing much, they will slowly gain the advantage. By mid '43, for the most part, the writing is on the wall. I have read post after post and after action reports galore to know that once the Heavy bombers and Corsairs arrive in numbers - and are used correctly - than its all over exept the cryin'.

Don't get me wrong. I love this game! But the reason we play these games are to measure ourselves against history. I think I could do better, even against impossible odds. Base objectives on that, not some gamey move on December 31.

BTW, While I agree Japan was doomed, Germany came **** close to succeeding. What if Moscow fell?
What if Moscow fell? Stalin already had contingencies for a new capital should Moscow fall. Look at the Soviet Union. Stalin had a lot of room to fall back and Germany could not have maintained a supply line with all the partisans in between. Remember Napoleon won Moscow but all he got out of it was a burning city and a long retreat.
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Post by Yamamoto »

Originally posted by kentaggie
- Just because Luganville or Brisbane is taken the US doesn't just pull out of SWPAC. Way too gamey.
I believe if Luganville was taken the US WOULD pull out of Noumea because that base would be unsafe as a base of operations. The war would continue but the South Pacific would belong to the Japanese...at least for the moment. Since this game is about warfare in the South Pacific it is quite reasonable to consider this a victory and end the game at that point.

2) Why does everyone play the ahistorical #17 & 19?
One of my friends also calls 17 and 19 ahistorical. They are, in fact, historical. They are historical right up to the point where you give your first order and then they diverge from history as any game does. I know what you mean - no Midway. Well, there is no way to assume Midway would have happened the way it did after one month of player-given orders and actions. Actually Midway was such a statistical anomaly (or act of God) that if it happened in a game and hadn't happened in real life people would demand that it be fixed.

Don't get me wrong. I love this game! But the reason we play these games are to measure ourselves against history.


That may be the reason some people play these games but don't assume that is the case for everyone. While the history serves as a nice setting and backdrop I would be just as happy if the entire game system were set on a fictitious world with made up empires. Heck, you could even convert the whole thing to space if you wanted to and I'd still love it. After all, wasn't Battlestar Galactica just a CV in space?

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Post by Nikademus »

Originally posted by Yamamoto
After all, wasn't Battlestar Galactica just a CV in space?

Yamamoto


Yes it was, and a poor one at that. I mean, whats up with such a huge ship only carrying 75 Vipers in total? Hell even Shokaku could handle 84 decently large planes, and the Essex could stuff up to one hundred or more! somebody out there in a galaxy far far away needs to better organize their flight decks.

sheesh!!! :D

whoops....think i just dated myself. Battlestar what?
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Post by Feinder »

You do realize that the SciFi channel is doing a remake of Battlestar Galactica...?

Supposed to air this fall.

Vipers!
Boltar!
Cylon Raiders!
Oh my!

Trivia questions for you...

1. How many battlestars were there ORIGINALLY (before the Cylon surprise attack)?

2. What was the one other battlestar that escaped the attack, besides the Galactica?

And while Wilma Deering was a babe, Princess Ardalla was a true vixen. (*grrrrrrrowl!*) Different show tho.

-F-
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Nikademus
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Post by Nikademus »

1. 12 i believe, one for each of the 12 colonies of man (with Earth being the lost 13th colony....so **** lost that while these buggers are zipping around in space, we are still blowing air through props and ducts to get airborne) IIRC as well, they were hundreds of Yaren old too (uh thats "years" for you non-space geeks who's expiration tag hasn't expired yet)

2. Battlestar Pegasus i believe.....wasn't Lloyd Bridges the one who played the commander?

Bonus trivia:

IIRC, a Cylon Base Star housed 300 fighters. Now that sounds more like it. Now all they need are pilots who do more than just say "BY YOUR COMMAND"

Bonus bonus Trivia

Who would win.....an Imperial Class Star Destroyer? or a Battlestar?

I heard about the movie.......cant wait to see how potentially bad it might be, then again after seeing how cheesy the orig series could be now through the eyes of an adult....how much worse can it get?

:eek:
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Post by Admiral DadMan »

God, I hope that they 86 the kid and that stupid bear-thing type object...
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Post by kentaggie »

Originally posted by Yamamoto
I believe if Luganville was taken the US WOULD pull out of Noumea because that base would be unsafe as a base of operations. The war would continue but the South Pacific would belong to the Japanese...at least for the moment. Since this game is about warfare in the South Pacific it is quite reasonable to consider this a victory and end the game at that point.



One of my friends also calls 17 and 19 ahistorical. They are, in fact, historical. They are historical right up to the point where you give your first order and then they diverge from history as any game does. I know what you mean - no Midway. Well, there is no way to assume Midway would have happened the way it did after one month of player-given orders and actions. Actually Midway was such a statistical anomaly (or act of God) that if it happened in a game and hadn't happened in real life people would demand that it be fixed.




That may be the reason some people play these games but don't assume that is the case for everyone. While the history serves as a nice setting and backdrop I would be just as happy if the entire game system were set on a fictitious world with made up empires. Heck, you could even convert the whole thing to space if you wanted to and I'd still love it. After all, wasn't Battlestar Galactica just a CV in space?

Yamamoto


Why would the US pull out and leave their only ally in SOPAC hanging in the wind? The reason that Coral Sea and Guadalcanal happened was the perceived threat to Australia. The allies would have continued to fight tooth and nail if Luganville were captured.

Agreed to a point. But the question remains why do people prefer those sceanarios by far? I think the reason is if you are going to play a long scenario, you want all of your toys and you want balance. 17 and 19 offer the best combination.



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Hey Kentaggie

Post by sbattler »

Who in the world made you a strategy genius?

Isn't the world round? Send the Aussies supplies from the right coast.

The scenarios are ahistorical. Every game I've ever played is too. If a player can, using hindsight, "change" history by making different decisions than the real admirals isn't that ahistorical? Isn't history just that...history?

And Hogan's Heroes has the best intro in TV land! Everybody knows that...DOH!
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Micah Goodman
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Post by Micah Goodman »

Originally posted by Yamamoto


I'd like to see points for ground troop losses increased with a bigger increase for the allied player. It's harder for a democracy to fight a war if they are loosing lots of young men than it is for a totalatarian militaristic country to do so.


Yamamoto


You know, I constantly hear this refrain about democracies not dealing with huge troop losses from people and I have one question, please name me one war in recent memory that a democracy lost or surrendered because of “Huge” troop losses? There is not one. Many will say what about Vietnam? Huh, Huh? I would say what about it? Vietnam was lost (from the American perspective) because of the worst PR campaign in modern history. Ask most Vietnam Veterans about the Tet offensive and they will soundly tell you that they stomped the snot out of their opponents. They didn’t realize they ‘lost’ Tet until the American media decided the Viet Cong and NVA won it because it happened all over the country at one time and regardless of the heavy losses suffered by the NVA, VC forces they won because they attacked. And because they attacked that must mean America was not winning so therefore the NVA, VC must be winning. By and large these same morons from thirty years ago recently sat behind their anchor desks and informed us of another Vietnam in Iraq and how mired down we would become and how the sky was falling and how the world would soon end. Guess what? They were wrong in the late sixties and they were wrong in the early 2000’s.

If America was not willing to suffer losses why did they continue the war as the death rate rose higher and higher in the Pacific? When the 1st Marine Division was mauled at Pelilau(SP?) why didn’t we say, “Man, those Japanese can fight, we better throw in the towel?” Why didn’t the French or the British throw up their hands and say enough is enough during WW I when whole regiments were being destroyed in a matter of minutes? Yes, I know the French came close but they didn’t actually do it.

I saw a report on the news shortly before the ground war in Iraq started that showed a comparison of this question asked at the start of or prior to a major war fought by the U.S., and it was this, “Do you know why we are fighting this war?” I do not remember the exact numbers but they were close to this,

WW II, mid 70 percent range.
Vietnam, mid twenty percent range.
Operation Iraqi Freedom, mid eighty percent range.

From this brief example I would argue that democracies WILL take loses if they believe the cause is important and just and will not support wars that the people of those countries deem not in the national interest.

But, I whole-heartedly agree with Fiender, I agree that the Japanese should get a win if they do better than their historical counterparts. This will be even more important for WitP. How can the Japanese hope win when the Americans could possibly have 100 plus aircraft carriers roaming the Pacific by late 1944? I want the Japanese player to say you lose, I still control the Philippine Islands in August 1945.
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Oleg Mastruko
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Post by Oleg Mastruko »

Originally posted by Micah Goodman
But, I whole-heartedly agree with Fiender, I agree that the Japanese should get a win if they do better than their historical counterparts.


I don't know... suddenly it sounds too easy for the Japanese.

In most wargames I played I managed to do better than historical counterpart. Just knowing what mistakes historic side made, was GREAT advantage.

I did complain many times how Japanese chances of victory in UV are too slim, but now it sounds too easy. Playing better than historic Japs seems like a piece of cake... First, we'll avoid Midway, then we'll build up Lunga real FAST, then we'll avoid meat-grinding of Guadalcanal, then we'll train more pilots and take care not to waste best pilots in senseless attacks etc. - piece of cake.

And BTW how do you measure success against history in unhistoric scenarios (17 and especially 19)? Who can tell what would IJN do with Midway carriers in Solomons.

O.
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Post by Yamamoto »

Originally posted by Micah Goodman
You know, I constantly hear this refrain about democracies not dealing with huge troop losses from people and I have one question, please name me one war in recent memory that a democracy lost or surrendered because of “Huge” troop losses?


Well, there's Somolia for one. We lost two helicoptors and some ground troops and we got the hell out of there.

Democracies DO have a hard time fighting wars when they start to take losses. The reason that wasn't the case so much buak in WW2 is because there was no television.

Today there are so many liberals in this country that not only do we have to be very careful not to take losses when we enter a war but we have to make sure we don't INFLICT too many losses on the enemy either. Does anyone think for a minute that we could have fought WW2 successfully with the atmosphere we have today? It would never happen. After the first fire-bombing of a German city the Germans could get peace terms within a matter of days. The terms might favor the allies but the Nazis would still be in power today that's for sure.

Well, it's 3:10 AM so nothing in the posting probably makes sense. I'm off to sleep.

Yamamoto
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Post by Admiral_Arctic »

The loss of Townsville and/or Luganville wouldn't be the end of the Allied fighting will and a premature surrender. But it would be the end of your command. If you couldn't recapture the base within a reasonable time (31st Dec 1942) you would be sacked. The Allies lost Philipines and Singapore but didn't surrender. The war continued. They lost Java, Sumatura, and Burma. Rommel got a promotion to field marshall for capturing Tobruk, but he didn't win the war and the Allies didn't surrender. They sacked the commander (Ritche then later Aukenleck) and eventually Montegomery took charge and they (eventually) counter-attacked and kicked butt. Just because MacArthur survived Philipines to command another day, the loss of PM and then Townsville would have secured his pension but not lost the war. Even the victorous capture of Guadalcanal was not enough for Ghourney to keep his command.

Britain fought on after the disasters of 1939 and 1940 and could only expect the worst for 1941. The loss of France and Dunkirk, the staggering losses of shipping in the Atlantic and disappointments in the Mediterrerean. But they sure did change a lot of leaders including poor old Dowding and sacked prime minister Chamberlain.

Also if Townsville or Luganville were captured by the Japs, the reinforcement schedule would have been so radically changed that our OoB would be unrecognisable. The triggered reaction would bring in enormous resources so that the NEW commander could do what you couldn't.
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