Avian aggression leads to murder most fowl - Sqz(A) vs. Chickenboy(J)

[SqzMyLemon]

ORIGINAL: fcharton

Would you be able to bomb him? I'm asking this because the Chungking basin has a lot of clear terrain, in B17 or B24 range from Ledo.

Francois

Definitely. The only problem would be lack of fighter coverage. If I could get enough supply to Chengtu I could then base Allied fighters there.

[SqzMyLemon]

ORIGINAL: tiemanj

Be careful thinking you can get much supply into China.

Considering none is getting in right now, any amount will help. [:D]

Actually, I have had experience plunking Chinese units along the Burma/China border and they did draw supply. I believe if I can get enough supply forward to Dimapur, Jorhat and Ledo it will get to the Chinese. I'm confident I'll get the logistics in place to sustain the Chinese...somehow.

Your points are well taken though, and I will leave myself an out if supply does not reach the levels I hope for.

[tiemanjw]

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

ORIGINAL: tiemanj

Be careful thinking you can get much supply into China.

Considering none is getting in right now, any amount will help. [:D]

Actually, I have had experience plunking Chinese units along the Burma/China border and they did draw supply. I believe if I can get enough supply forward to Dimapur, Jorhat and Ledo it will get to the Chinese. I'm confident I'll get the logistics in place to sustain the Chinese...somehow.

Your points are well taken though, and I will leave myself an out if supply does not reach the levels I hope for.

Units can draw supply directly from the bases as well, and they are not subject to the base minimum supply requirements. So if a valid path can be drawn, the units can get some direct. If you move your Chinese LCUs into the mountains, but within supply range of Ledo (or whatever), they should get some. I also don't think units are subject to the "max draw" limitations - just the number of times / week limits depending on the quality of the path.

That is just a lot of words to say, I think you can support the units on the border (assuming you pull them back) at survival levels. Being spread out in the mountains, I doubt he'll chase as it would take a considerable amount of force a looooong time.


I don't know what I think of the abandon Chungking plan. On one hand, if you can support the Chinese along the India / China border (and I suspect you can), you can deny him a lot of LCU VPs. On the other hand, it frees up a lot of his forces to go do other things. Chungking also has a lot of industry, which if left intact, would help out the Empire. I guess it really doesn't matter which you choose, so long as you understand what that choice means.
You claim to want to play the deep game! I'd argue that the LCU VPs lost to him are more valuable to you than the extra units (smaller VP denominator for him means 2x or 3x less VPs you need in '45 or '44). The deep game depends on controlling the seas, and there is little those LCUs can do to help with that. Just make sure you pay attention to you sigint when planning on operations so you can hit the week spots. 10k AV in Manila is useless if you land on Formosa!
It also leaves a thorn in his side. Over time, those units will slowly recover damaged devices, and probably even draw in a few more. Once you take Burma you can force feed supplies into Rangoon (or even Ramree) to push enough into China to roll some of these units forward. If he weakens his defenses enough, you can make him pay here too.
You can also leave a bunch of engineers with 1 or 2 corps in Chungking. Perhaps this will destroy the industry and deny him the extra supply, too.

[Rio Bravo]

SqzMyLemon-

Interesting idea: Abandoning Chungking.

I am soon going to face the dilema you are facing now in China.

That darn Evil El Lobo just keeps pressing hard in China.

Best Regards,

-Terry

[SqzMyLemon]

I have a turn to run tonight, then I thought I'd try and find the time to put together a comprehensive update showing Burma and China. It might highlight whether abandoning Chungking is a viable option or a strategic mistake of epic proportions.

Allied progress in India could lead to establishing a strong position in Burma from which to directly support the Chinese war effort. How much support is up for debate. I'm not convinced that sacrificing the bulk of the Chinese Army holding Chungking will have anything other than a negative impact on the Allied cause.

How quickly it takes to traverse Burma and reach the Chinese border will determine if China falls or not.

[BBfanboy]

Some players have pulled surprises on the IJA in China by airlifting in some good Allied equipment - like an A/T gun regiment (2 pounders) and light AA (40 MM) which can fit on transport aircraft. I can't recall if this had to wait for the Globemasters or if the C-47 Skytrain was sufficient. If China is on the cusp of being saved or lost, this could make all the difference.

[SqzMyLemon]

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Some players have pulled surprises on the IJA in China by airlifting in some good Allied equipment - like an A/T gun regiment (2 pounders) and light AA (40 MM) which can fit on transport aircraft. I can't recall if this had to wait for the Globemasters or if the C-47 Skytrain was sufficient. If China is on the cusp of being saved or lost, this could make all the difference.

That's exactly my intention. Get Allied equipment into China, but the problem of supply remains. If I can't get supply into the country, all the Allied hardware and P-38's won't matter.

My efforts will first focus on air transport of supplies to Paoshan and Kunming. I'm hoping avoiding the hump may reduce my transport losses to Ops.

[GetAssista]

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon
My efforts will first focus on air transport of supplies to Paoshan and Kunming. I'm hoping avoiding the hump may reduce my transport losses to Ops.

Oh, does the game have special penalties coded in for flying over The Hump?
I know that ops losses mount up with the usual massive supply transporting from India to China, but assumed it's because of the scale of operation and generally bad airfields in China

[SqzMyLemon]

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

Oh, does the game have special penalties coded in for flying over The Hump?
I know that ops losses mount up with the usual massive supply transporting from India to China, but assumed it's because of the scale of operation and generally bad airfields in China

Not that I'm aware of. I was referring to the lower range from Dimapur and Ledo to Paoshan, than say flying to Chengtu.

[tiemanjw]

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Some players have pulled surprises on the IJA in China by airlifting in some good Allied equipment - like an A/T gun regiment (2 pounders) and light AA (40 MM) which can fit on transport aircraft. I can't recall if this had to wait for the Globemasters or if the C-47 Skytrain was sufficient. If China is on the cusp of being saved or lost, this could make all the difference.

Shouldn't matter the A/C type. The manual says devices with a load 9 or less can be airlifted. The size of the A/C does not matter (though bigger A/C may be able to lift more at a time).
C-47s can move anything that can be moved. Just not as far, and possibly a little slower.

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: tiemanj

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Some players have pulled surprises on the IJA in China by airlifting in some good Allied equipment - like an A/T gun regiment (2 pounders) and light AA (40 MM) which can fit on transport aircraft. I can't recall if this had to wait for the Globemasters or if the C-47 Skytrain was sufficient. If China is on the cusp of being saved or lost, this could make all the difference.

Shouldn't matter the A/C type. The manual says devices with a load 9 or less can be airlifted. The size of the A/C does not matter (though bigger A/C may be able to lift more at a time).
C-47s can move anything that can be moved. Just not as far, and possibly a little slower.

This varies from my experience in game where I was unable to load some equipment (I forget what -maybe mountain guns?) on a C-47 but was able to move it on a Catalina. Of course Cats won't help in China ...[:(]

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

ORIGINAL: tiemanj

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Some players have pulled surprises on the IJA in China by airlifting in some good Allied equipment - like an A/T gun regiment (2 pounders) and light AA (40 MM) which can fit on transport aircraft. I can't recall if this had to wait for the Globemasters or if the C-47 Skytrain was sufficient. If China is on the cusp of being saved or lost, this could make all the difference.

Shouldn't matter the A/C type. The manual says devices with a load 9 or less can be airlifted. The size of the A/C does not matter (though bigger A/C may be able to lift more at a time).
C-47s can move anything that can be moved. Just not as far, and possibly a little slower.

This varies from my experience in game where I was unable to load some equipment (I forget what -maybe mountain guns?) on a C-47 but was able to move it on a Catalina. Of course Cats won't help in China ...[:(]

That's what I have seen, too. The size of the aircraft does matter (I think max load is the relevant stat), but when a device is above the threshold where air transport is allowed then it won't go no matter how big the plane.

BTW, the PBY-5A is an amphibian and (if the game models it) can land on ground runways. Might be worth a try.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

ORIGINAL: tiemanj




Shouldn't matter the A/C type. The manual says devices with a load 9 or less can be airlifted. The size of the A/C does not matter (though bigger A/C may be able to lift more at a time).
C-47s can move anything that can be moved. Just not as far, and possibly a little slower.

This varies from my experience in game where I was unable to load some equipment (I forget what -maybe mountain guns?) on a C-47 but was able to move it on a Catalina. Of course Cats won't help in China ...[:(]

That's what I have seen, too. The size of the aircraft does matter (I think max load is the relevant stat), but when a device is above the threshold where air transport is allowed then it won't go no matter how big the plane.

BTW, the PBY-5A is an amphibian and (if the game models it) can land on ground runways. Might be worth a try.

There isn't a threshold for air transport, but there is for parachute attacks.

You can fit some obscenely large things in Tabby (load 9920) and Emily (load 12400) aircraft. Just about the only thing from an entire IJA division that won't fit in those are the big guns. Never tried mass airlifting with the Allies. The C-46 has a load of 10000, so it would be comparable to the Tabby...

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy



This varies from my experience in game where I was unable to load some equipment (I forget what -maybe mountain guns?) on a C-47 but was able to move it on a Catalina. Of course Cats won't help in China ...[:(]

That's what I have seen, too. The size of the aircraft does matter (I think max load is the relevant stat), but when a device is above the threshold where air transport is allowed then it won't go no matter how big the plane.

BTW, the PBY-5A is an amphibian and (if the game models it) can land on ground runways. Might be worth a try.

There isn't a threshold for air transport, but there is for parachute attacks.

You can fit some obscenely large things in Tabby (load 9920) and Emily (load 12400) aircraft. Just about the only thing from an entire IJA division that won't fit in those are the big guns. Never tried mass airlifting with the Allies. The C-46 has a load of 10000, so it would be comparable to the Tabby...

If I've interpreted the rules correctly, load isn't all that important when transporting troops.

With troop transports, all that matters is load >7500. That means they get to move two squads per turn, less than 7500 and its just one squad. I assume they can also move two artillery devices with a load cost of 9 or less, but the dev post on the matter specified "squad or engineer" type devices.

One of the good things about the TOE of most IJA units is that their organic artillery is almost completely air-transportable, much more so than the US units. It makes an IJA regiment much more flexible than it's American counterpart.

Load is important for supply transport though.

[tiemanjw]

I doubled checked:

7.2.4.2 AIR TRANSPORT TROOPS BETWEEN BASES
Ground units can be moved between friendly bases up to half (50%) the Maximum range of
the carrying aircraft.
Non-squad and non-engineer type devices of a load cost greater than 9 can NOT be
transported.


I have used C-47s to air transport 40mm Bofers (device 980) with a load cost of 9, so I know they can do it.

Perhaps it hasn't been implemented as described, but the manual seems clear on this one.

I did a quick check of Japanese devices (in tracker):
AFVs: their light tanks, tankettes and armored cars are all 9 or less. Only the medium tanks are bigger
Guns: all mortars (except 32cm) and all but the T90 guns 75mm or smaller have a load cost of 9 or less. Only the big boys are bigger
For flak, DP guns and radars though they will have trouble.

For the allies though, they have bigger AFVs, and though their 76mm and smaller tend to be transportable, most TO&Es have 25 Lbrs or 105s. Plus a crap ton of motorized support.

And I have airlifted entire commonwealth and US divisions with C47s exclusively - less the 25lbrs, 105s, and motorized support which need to walk or get sea lifted.


Back to why this is relevant:
All allied AT guns, except the 17lbr (my word, what a monster! I haven't even seen these yet) can be airlifted (load of 9 or less). This includes the powerful British 6lbr and US 37mm and 57mm. If necessary, you can use C47s to move a few of these into China to help them stem the tide of Japanese "armor". Be careful though, as replacement rates are rather low on these devices.

edit: Also, don't discount the British PIAT, which is organic to commonwealth squads '43 and newer (plus the "African Rifle Squad" and "Cdo/Para"). These are nasty little buggers with an AT value 1 point lower then the 6lbr or 57mm (75 instead of 76).

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: tiemanj

I doubled checked:

7.2.4.2 AIR TRANSPORT TROOPS BETWEEN BASES
Ground units can be moved between friendly bases up to half (50%) the Maximum range of
the carrying aircraft.
Non-squad and non-engineer type devices of a load cost greater than 9 can NOT be
transported.


I have used C-47s to air transport 40mm Bofers (device 980) with a load cost of 9, so I know they can do it.

Perhaps it hasn't been implemented as described, but the manual seems clear on this one.

I did a quick check of Japanese devices (in tracker):
AFVs: their light tanks, tankettes and armored cars are all 9 or less. Only the medium tanks are bigger
Guns: all mortars (except 32cm) and all but the T90 guns 75mm or smaller have a load cost of 9 or less. Only the big boys are bigger
For flak, DP guns and radars though they will have trouble.

For the allies though, they have bigger AFVs, and though their 76mm and smaller tend to be transportable, most TO&Es have 25 Lbrs or 105s. Plus a crap ton of motorized support.

And I have airlifted entire commonwealth and US divisions with C47s exclusively - less the 25lbrs, 105s, and motorized support which need to walk or get sea lifted.


Back to why this is relevant:
All allied AT guns, except the 17lbr (my word, what a monster! I haven't even seen these yet) can be airlifted (load of 9 or less). This includes the powerful British 6lbr and US 37mm and 57mm. If necessary, you can use C47s to move a few of these into China to help them stem the tide of Japanese "armor". Be careful though, as replacement rates are rather low on these devices.

edit: Also, don't discount the British PIAT, which is organic to commonwealth squads '43 and newer (plus the "African Rifle Squad" and "Cdo/Para"). These are nasty little buggers with an AT value 1 point lower then the 6lbr or 57mm (75 instead of 76).

This is the post I am talking about.

fb.asp?m=2485606

Specifically:

Common for ready devices:
b) Aviation support - 2 devices moved plus 2 more if a/c max load is 7500 or more
c) Squad or Engineer device type - 1 device moved plus one more if a/c max load is 7500 or more

Common for disabled devices:
d) Aviation support - 2 devices moved
e) Squad or Engineer device type - 1 device moved plus one more if a/c max load is 7500 or more

This leaves me unsure if you can transport more than 1 artillery device per aircraft, seeing as artillery is most certainly not a squad or engineer type device.

[Lokasenna]

I can tell you from doing it first hand, on more than one occasion, that what the manual says is definitely not true in this case.

I've moved guns and even tanks by plane. Obvert has also.

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

I can tell you from doing it first hand, on more than one occasion, that what the manual says is definitely not true in this case.

I've moved guns and even tanks by plane. Obvert has also.

I'm not contesting that. I've done (and am doing it) myself.

What I'm saying is that, for troop transport, the load of an aircraft doesn't isn't important so long as it's over 7500. So long as it's over 7500, you carry two "squad or engineer" type devices. The aircraft could have a load of 7501 or 12000, and, according to the link I posted above, it wouldn't matter. Two is the limit, if you're using a Tabby or a C 54 Skymaster.

What I'm saying is it's not specifically stated if you can move 2 "Non-squad and non-engineer" devices (read: tanks/artillery) in a transport aircraft with a load >7500.

Of course, load is important when it comes to supply transport, but we're talking troops here.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

I can tell you from doing it first hand, on more than one occasion, that what the manual says is definitely not true in this case.

I've moved guns and even tanks by plane. Obvert has also.

I'm not contesting that. I've done (and am doing it) myself.

What I'm saying is that, for troop transport, the load of an aircraft doesn't isn't important so long as it's over 7500. So long as it's over 7500, you carry two "squad or engineer" type devices. The aircraft could have a load of 7501 or 12000, and, according to the link I posted above, it wouldn't matter. Two is the limit, if you're using a Tabby or a C 54 Skymaster.

What I'm saying is it's not specifically stated if you can move 2 "Non-squad and non-engineer" devices (read: tanks/artillery) in a transport aircraft with a load >7500.

Of course, load is important when it comes to supply transport, but we're talking troops here.

I was responding to tiemanj, really.

I don't know that I trust anything the manual says on this subject. I can tell you that I transported the entire IJA 2nd Division except for the really big guns in just a matter of days using maybe 50 planes. I think that multiple devices will be transported as long as there's space, which is determined by load cost per device vs. aircraft load.

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

I can tell you from doing it first hand, on more than one occasion, that what the manual says is definitely not true in this case.

I've moved guns and even tanks by plane. Obvert has also.

I'm not contesting that. I've done (and am doing it) myself.

What I'm saying is that, for troop transport, the load of an aircraft doesn't isn't important so long as it's over 7500. So long as it's over 7500, you carry two "squad or engineer" type devices. The aircraft could have a load of 7501 or 12000, and, according to the link I posted above, it wouldn't matter. Two is the limit, if you're using a Tabby or a C 54 Skymaster.

What I'm saying is it's not specifically stated if you can move 2 "Non-squad and non-engineer" devices (read: tanks/artillery) in a transport aircraft with a load >7500.

Of course, load is important when it comes to supply transport, but we're talking troops here.

I was responding to tiemanj, really.

I don't know that I trust anything the manual says on this subject. I can tell you that I transported the entire IJA 2nd Division except for the really big guns in just a matter of days using maybe 50 planes. I think that multiple devices will be transported as long as there's space, which is determined by load cost per device vs. aircraft load.

That's not what michaelm says on the subject. Aircraft load factors in only for air transport of supplies. With troop transport, for an aircraft to fly with multiple squad/engineer devices is a simple check of aircraft load. If aircraft load >7500 then carry two. If not, carry one.

Granted, the post in question is 5 years old, but I've check the beta patch changelogs and not spotted anything.

Assuming your 50 planes did have an aircraft load >7500 then that's 100 infantry squads per turn being moved. Three three turns for the bulk of the infantry in a typical IJA division, then three more for the lighter artillery.