Yes, you should of course bomb the isolated/forward recon bases mercilessly as this is relatively low cost, high reward and gains experience. But the key to really bombing the Lufwaffe is to spam bomb (in games with unlimited bombing). Basically the Soviets have far more bombers than the Germans have fighters and it reaches a point where you are basically bombing air bases that no longer have any coverage. In games with no house rules for air base bombing you can literally hit a base 15 times or more. So yes, early in the game and early in the bombing you might take massive losses, but eventually it turns and you are destroying hundreds of Axis planes every turn. In my last game with unlimited bombing, the Axis had under 800 planes left in late September '41 and pretty much no recon planes left at all. In my current game against the same opponent, we are playing on 3 bombings TOTAL per turn (not per base) and the Axis have about 3000 planes in June '42.....
Honestly, I really need to pay more overall attention to the air war. It's a very weak part of my game. One thing I did notice just last turn when looking at some battles seeing how the Germans were able to penetrate my lines was that despite having over 10,000 planes, in major battles sometimes only 13 Soviet planes were going up while the Axis had shitloads supporting their attacks. No idea why....
A Grey Steppe Eagle (loki100 vs Vigabrand)
Moderators: Joel Billings, Sabre21
RE: recon
ORIGINAL: mattp
Yes, you should of course bomb the isolated/forward recon bases mercilessly as this is relatively low cost, high reward and gains experience. But the key to really bombing the Lufwaffe is to spam bomb (in games with unlimited bombing). Basically the Soviets have far more bombers than the Germans have fighters and it reaches a point where you are basically bombing air bases that no longer have any coverage. In games with no house rules for air base bombing you can literally hit a base 15 times or more. So yes, early in the game and early in the bombing you might take massive losses, but eventually it turns and you are destroying hundreds of Axis planes every turn. In my last game with unlimited bombing, the Axis had under 800 planes left in late September '41 and pretty much no recon planes left at all. In my current game against the same opponent, we are playing on 3 bombings TOTAL per turn (not per base) and the Axis have about 3000 planes in June '42.....
Honestly, I really need to pay more overall attention to the air war. It's a very weak part of my game. One thing I did notice just last turn when looking at some battles seeing how the Germans were able to penetrate my lines was that despite having over 10,000 planes, in major battles sometimes only 13 Soviet planes were going up while the Axis had shitloads supporting their attacks. No idea why....
which really re-enforces the argument for a limit. I'd be happy to agree to a strict version if an axis player really wanted it ... such as no more than x attacks per airbase and y in total for the turn. Both sides did carry out major airbase attacks in support of set piece offensives ... the Soviets got caught out badly at the start of Kursk when the Germans detected their incoming attack .. but it doesn't seem to have been done week after week on quiet sectors. Given the acknowledged gaps in the WiTE air war model its not something I'd really want to seek to exploit
reasons for poor Soviet performance are that up to Nov (or is Dec) 41 there is a serious malus, so the planes take off (use up miles) but poor co-ordination means they don't reach their targets. Also check the admin score of your air commanders, if this is low then you maybe missing a lot of dice rolls.
Final issue is the short range of many Soviet fighters, in the main the Germans had a large advantage in this respect so maybe able to call in fighters from a wider range. Soviet doctrine was that the fighter was there to defend Soviet airspace and protect ground operations ... they had (and this carried into the Cold War) no real doctrinal commitment to the western idea of air superiority as such. This was very much reflected in their plane design.
From their experience in the Civil War and then the concept of the deep battle doctrine, they expected ground units to outrun air cover, one reason why the at start Soviet divisions are fairly rich in AA as there was an expectation they'd have to defend themselves. As so often with Soviet doctrine/operations in 1941, the theory was fine but the execution dire.
RE: recon
Airfield bombing is limited in .05 to first mission on a turn (when group is at 0% miles flown), just like unit or city bombing (with the exception of German June 22nd, 1941 turn).
Soviet and Axis Ally planes were also bugged in that they couldn't (in most cases) fly automated missions when outside of land battle.
Soviet and Axis Ally planes were also bugged in that they couldn't (in most cases) fly automated missions when outside of land battle.
RE: recon
ORIGINAL: morvael
Airfield bombing is limited in .05 to first mission on a turn (when group is at 0% miles flown), just like unit or city bombing (with the exception of German June 22nd, 1941 turn).
Soviet and Axis Ally planes were also bugged in that they couldn't (in most cases) fly automated missions when outside of land battle.
if you are looking at small rebalances, axis losses to AA have gone from far too many to far too few. Constant bombing of a city stuffed with flak is seeing minimal (1-2 per turn if that) losses as a result. Somewhere between the old norm and the new would be realistic ... not least a deterrent to axis players city/port bombing turn after turn with no real cost.
RE: recon
umm.......
so every air unit will have to choose between bombing ground units, airbase attacks, or running supply drops....
Getting very restrictive on air use.....a game turn is 7 days......Mise well just remove planes if you keep restricting it, as they will be sucking up far more trucks/supply than they are worth to mess around with.....
IDK I think making a player choose between only 1 air mission per turn is abit to restrictive...esp as house rules make the situation playable as is....just my 2 cents...with that change it will make it pointless to attempt to conduct an air war at all on the other side....again a balance benefit to the Axis.
As I would much prefer to bomb hexes I need to attack over enemy airbases....so basically you will make it to where the soviet player wont be conducting an air war against the luftwaffe. Which will be a huge balance swing long term to axis IMO.
so every air unit will have to choose between bombing ground units, airbase attacks, or running supply drops....
Getting very restrictive on air use.....a game turn is 7 days......Mise well just remove planes if you keep restricting it, as they will be sucking up far more trucks/supply than they are worth to mess around with.....
IDK I think making a player choose between only 1 air mission per turn is abit to restrictive...esp as house rules make the situation playable as is....just my 2 cents...with that change it will make it pointless to attempt to conduct an air war at all on the other side....again a balance benefit to the Axis.
As I would much prefer to bomb hexes I need to attack over enemy airbases....so basically you will make it to where the soviet player wont be conducting an air war against the luftwaffe. Which will be a huge balance swing long term to axis IMO.
RE: recon
Actually spent a lot of time to try to balance flak. Axis are slaughtered late war in AI wars, but take very small losses early. City flak gets some bonuses though. Better fire, takes part in combat, easier to remove when enemy is near.
Structure bombing should be scaled to factory size, will have to check this. 5 percent of level 20 is more than 5 percent of level 1.
It's still possible to strike same air base many times, but each group can do it only once per turn, so you run out of available groups pretty quickly.
Chaos, ground support and interdiction is unlimited and that's what counts in the long run. No large strategic bombing campaigns in the East.
Structure bombing should be scaled to factory size, will have to check this. 5 percent of level 20 is more than 5 percent of level 1.
It's still possible to strike same air base many times, but each group can do it only once per turn, so you run out of available groups pretty quickly.
Chaos, ground support and interdiction is unlimited and that's what counts in the long run. No large strategic bombing campaigns in the East.
RE: recon
Yes but you will be forcing the player to choose between one first mission...is alot of competing priorities for the first and only mission of a turn aside from hoping something automated is generated...I think long term this will be a massive benefit to the Axis.
As to strategic air war no...but bombing the other sides air bases and aerial attrition was used by both sides at different points in the campaign.
Even city bombing of Moscow was done for awhile in 1941/1942....however losses were to high for the Germans to continue.
So it was attempted and found not worthwhile as far as strategic air war.
I understand ground support may still automatically show up, but it is critical to bomb Axis ground units for disruption as well before assaults. I have seen a decided difference in combat results with and without pre assault air bombing.
You will be taking that option away now as the Soviet player will have to choose between airbase attacks and ground unit attacks....thats the choice I think is dumb and dont like....especially since you can already only ground bomb once per turn per air unit.
As to strategic air war no...but bombing the other sides air bases and aerial attrition was used by both sides at different points in the campaign.
Even city bombing of Moscow was done for awhile in 1941/1942....however losses were to high for the Germans to continue.
So it was attempted and found not worthwhile as far as strategic air war.
I understand ground support may still automatically show up, but it is critical to bomb Axis ground units for disruption as well before assaults. I have seen a decided difference in combat results with and without pre assault air bombing.
You will be taking that option away now as the Soviet player will have to choose between airbase attacks and ground unit attacks....thats the choice I think is dumb and dont like....especially since you can already only ground bomb once per turn per air unit.
RE: recon
Chaos is right, this changes is just so unnecessary and worse. Strategic bombing is striking pop centers and industrial targets and that has always been limited by players. Allowing multiple strikes against airbases was imo one thing in this air portion of the game that actually worked. Players had house rules that limited the damage inflicted and eventually would allow the Soviet player to gain air superiority. Why is this suddenly an issue that requires a game change? It's silly that air units can only do one mission in the course of a week.
Take your time releasing v.05. I don't want it.
Take your time releasing v.05. I don't want it.
RE: recon
Long turns without ability to react by the opponent are reason that even a sound rule can be made overpowered and leading to snowballs.
After a day or two of constant raids the enemy would either reinforce his base or withdraw. Now damaged planes await oblivion without reacting. And you can bomb too much because entire air armies can bomb single location which would be coordination nightmare when done in parallel. Just like ground attacks are out of sync. Attack from the back and exploit with units near front to maximize mp for deep raid.
After a day or two of constant raids the enemy would either reinforce his base or withdraw. Now damaged planes await oblivion without reacting. And you can bomb too much because entire air armies can bomb single location which would be coordination nightmare when done in parallel. Just like ground attacks are out of sync. Attack from the back and exploit with units near front to maximize mp for deep raid.
-
Bozo_the_Clown
- Posts: 890
- Joined: Tue Jun 25, 2013 1:51 pm
- Location: Bozotown
RE: recon
Can we get some input on how this patching process actually works? Who comes up with these design changes? Who decides which change gets implemented? Who does the beta testing?
RE: recon
Well a damaged plane is going nowhere really.....I disgree with your assessment.
With house rules limiting air strikes to 3 per airbase per turn the game works fine IMO.
Also isnt coordination a leadership roll in the game....we are already seeing far less planes launched on your once per turn air attack than you have available to use.
Often much less........so that coordination or lack thereof is already built into the game.
With house rules limiting air strikes to 3 per airbase per turn the game works fine IMO.
Also isnt coordination a leadership roll in the game....we are already seeing far less planes launched on your once per turn air attack than you have available to use.
Often much less........so that coordination or lack thereof is already built into the game.
RE: recon
I agree, limit it so that a single airbase can only be bombed 3 times per turn. No need for the restrictive "1st action" as it's incredibly limiting. I find it limiting that you can only bomb units and cities with your first action as well. So I agree with Chaos and M60 on this one.
-
Bozo_the_Clown
- Posts: 890
- Joined: Tue Jun 25, 2013 1:51 pm
- Location: Bozotown
RE: recon
Can we get some input on how this patching process actually works? Who comes up with these design changes? Who decides which change gets implemented? Who does the beta testing?
Why no answer to this important question? I would like to know who pulls the strings behind the curtain. Is there something wrong with that? We are spending hours after hours playing this game. What if the entire process is rigged?
-
Bozo_the_Clown
- Posts: 890
- Joined: Tue Jun 25, 2013 1:51 pm
- Location: Bozotown
RE: recon
ozo you are right the system is clearly rigged. My guess is that an Asian betting cartel has wagered millions of euros on the outcome of Pelton's AAR - would explain why everything is so biased towards the Axis...
Did you fix your fatal error?
RE: recon
ORIGINAL: Bozo_the_Clown
Can we get some input on how this patching process actually works? Who comes up with these design changes? Who decides which change gets implemented? Who does the beta testing?
Why no answer to this important question? I would like to know who pulls the strings behind the curtain. Is there something wrong with that? We are spending hours after hours playing this game. What if the entire process is rigged?
Hi Bozo
fascinating and valid view, but it is *ahem* an AAR thread