Soviet defensive tactics 41/42

[timmyab]

I'll just share my thoughts on Soviet defensive tactics which might be out of date a bit now because I haven't played them much under recent patches.
I've noticed that there's not a lot of theory about how to organize a defense so I'd be interested to hear what other people think about the best way to do it in various circumstances.

This defense is 41/42 orientated and is designed to absorb shock. It is strong but flexible.

I don't rely too much on carpet defenses (although they do have their uses for sure). With the right technique Axis players can chew through these 7 deep and still break out behind them. I try to have at least one MLR and particularly in the South build it behind a river line whenever possible. Two good divisions in level 2+ fortresses is best.

Ideally there's a picket line in front which will (if it doesn't rout) retreat into the MLR making the river line even stronger. If the picket unit is directly in front of the MLR it can be a strong division because this will almost certainly retreat into the MLR when attacked without routing. If the picket unit is two hexes or more in front then it should be weaker for fear that the picket unit itself will be targeted for pocketing. This picket line helps to absorb the shock of an attack and creates uncertainty in the mind of the attacker about how strong the MLR is exactly. Also If an enemy starts to clear the picket line it can act as a warning signal that a major attack could be imminent. It can be two hexes deep in vulnerable spots.

Two or three hexes behind the MLR depending on terrain I place strong points. These will be beyond the range of infantry attacks and strong enough that already weakened panzers will struggle to knock them over. Ideally in good terrain, in 41 and 42 I'm looking for CVs of 15+ (preferably more) in these stacks. Also these stacks and the cavalry divisions behind them will often form an important part of any counterattacking force. Army HQs are placed with them.

Further back still is what I think of as my Alamo line. It's a line of weak units, often brigades or cavalry divisions and ideally behind a river digging the next MLR. These are placed in such a way as to force exploiting panzers to go through at least two ZOCs if they have to go around the strong points.

Beyond that any important objective within conceivable striking distance is given a garrison of some sort. Whether that's a city or a major river crossing point or possibly a vital rail junction etc.

That's my bog standard type setup, obviously weaker sectors wont have these resources and vital sectors will have even more. Any spare units I place directly behind the MLR in reserve mode no more than one high so that they don't force too many retreating units to rout. These guys dig forts for the MLR units to retreat into. I don't place crucial elements of the defense in reserve mode for fear of weakening the defense possibly for no gain.

Once the river line is breached then comes the difficult choice of when to abandon it and when to fight. This will depend on the situation of course. There's nothing more depressing for an Axis player than to be thrown back across a river line in 1941/42

Any thoughts anyone?

[Gabriel B.]

The axis infantry is badly demoralised after the winter battles , a picket line would give then the oportunity to recover morale.

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: Gabriel B.

The axis infantry is badly demoralised after the winter battles , a picket line would give then the oportunity to recover morale.

I'm sorry, but under 1.08.03/4 this is just utterly wrong. Doesn't matter how much you batter them in the winter, they recover to full strength by June. So that means you face the entire German army at near full strength all the summer while yours falls to pieces. I've just had defensive stacks of 45 cv pushed out of the way because the Germans could reach them.

The only valid Soviet strategy in 1942 under the current rules is to run and to keep out of the way of the German infantry, anything else invites disaster. In many ways its far more deterministic than 1941 is (which I think without the +1 etc now works pretty well).

and don't imagine you can damage the Pzrs by counterattacks. Rout a division, destroy 50+ tanks and a turn later its pushing at you with no long term loss of capacity.

All you can do is play accountant. You can lose x value of admin points, so how are you going to allocate those losses over 1942. Everything else is just window dressing.

A combination of too low losses (which we all know about), with seemingly too much manpower (both sides), the 40NM for the Soviets and 1942 alters from being a balanced tussle with both sides looking for advantage to an exercise in reaching a pre-ordained outcome. Just look at any of the current AARs in 1942.

And if the 1942 'balance' is needed as the Germans fall apart too quickly late game, well that, to me, is not much of a balance. Key is there is no point creating clever strategies when the game has become deterministic ... good/bad play will alter the final end position but makes no real difference to the broad trend of how 1942 is playing out.

edit: and of course the now predictable German March 1942 offensive is further evidence that the axis infantry is not demoralised. In reality the Germans made a number of small localised attacks to restore sectors and to finish off formations that the Soviets had pushed too far. We are seeing front wide, game changing offensives as of now.

[Gabriel B.]

70 morale means demoralised, because it cost increased movement cost to enter enemy hexes .

The german army gets 700,000 men above historical numbers .
Returning disabled/hiwis are enough to cover atrition numbers, with normal recruitment and
newly arived units pushing the orbat to 3,7 million men.

and a AXIS 1942 ofensive ends up as historical due to insuficient panzer production.

[charlie0311]

All very interesting, the conceptual stuff is above my pay grade.

I have been thinking along the lines of how to deploy sov forces for the March Axis blitz.

Front line, three rd/hex (no gds); next hex, one rx (lvl 2e); next, another lvl 2 brigade. then a line of gd rd, cav xxx, maybe some mtn xx and yet another rx.

Starting in Jan make an estimate as to where the winter offensive will stop, first hex behind this position move the extra xxxx hq with 18 rx's each and two or three sappers in hq. Two rx's per hex with the hq support will get this line to level two entrench. This will be the third line.

As those rx's complete their work, some will stay to maintain the e lvl, some will move back to dig some more,

Winter offensive stops in Feb, the three rd's in the front line will dig ok (we hope) the gds rd and cav xxx in the second line dig fast, the good stuff (gds and cav) is back in the fourth line by March, we hope, after digging to level 2 in the second line they get replaced by a single rx.

Pz ball will quickly wreck this, so now time to run (er, "redeploy"). At least far enough so that the german inf can't make deliberate attack on your new front line, three rds/hex again if you can afford it, backed by single xxx and xx units. If you are lucky and make good guesses, this first "run to" line will have been prepared to level 2 entrench by brigades.

Gotta go for now

[MattFL]

In my game where I most certainly had a very successful 1941, my GHC opponent didn't do anything until June. Sat and rebuilt. By June the German army was completely rebuilt and incredibly powerful slicing through my lines of 45+ CV with ease and getting massive encirclements in the process. The offensive CV's of the Russians allows the pockets to be opened, but the troops inside of course face eventual doom. I'm very curious to see how it will all play out, but the Germans are probably more powerful in 1942 than they are in 1941 simply because they don't have to waste time covering large chunks of land, they can get to grips with you much easier. In my game as well, given high CV across the entire front, my opponent has forsaken offensive action in the south and is grinding towards Moscow and I'm beginning to wonder if I'll be able to stop him/hold until Mud....time will tell....I have been one arguing that the Russians are not at all too weak in 1942, but perhaps the Germans are a tad powerful. [;)]

[Sorta]

RD/RX? I'm confused.

[charlie0311]

Sure,

xxxxx = front, xxxx = army, xxx = corp, xx = div, x = brigade.

R for rifle, G for guard.

Rx is talking about rifle brigades, Tx would be tank brigade.

[charlie0311]

Matt,

I know everything depends, I think you can stop the Axis, even the most powerful stuff, with Gds rxxx. Double stacked, they entrench fast, and should easy get def cv over 100.

You would need 32 Gd Rxx's in reserve having been pulled from the line in late winter or spring, then 16 rxx from the front defending Moscow. That would get 4 xxxx's each with 4 GdRxxx, 8 hexs of "stop". Gds Cav xxx behind to counter/attack. Also enough room in the front cp to have some more stuff on reserve activation.

[chaos45]

Charlie if only life was so simple and the Axis simply let you build up in peace......

Once winter ends...I mean the first week of March every single game where the Axis arent sucking you know what we see a massive Spring Axis offensive that typically nets at least 1 Soviet army or more before mud sets in. Then once mud is over encriclement after encirclement that steadily weakens or at best leaves the Soviet army the same strength but less ground and maybe experienced formations.

Again the AI has no real relevance to PvP play. I dont even waste time against the AI as it really is a waste of time to play the AI now. The AI will not use its forces effectively and especially as the Axis will be nowhere near as effective as a human player.

What the Soviets can do in the perfect environment is of course build a massive juggernaut of an army.....if the Axis player lets that happen they are most likely going to lose the war in 1944 at some point.

16 Rifle corps is a drop in the bucket to form an effective line to stop a panzerball assault. Most of my successful defensive actions against the Panzerball involved 20+ Soviet Corps operating in the same sector typcially backed up by 1-2 entire fronts of infantry units on the ground as well. Even then all that does is delay the wiping out of the initially encircled units. Not in one battle all summer was I able to stop Peltons Germans from at least encircling and destroying some Soviet units when his attacks were launched.

My game vs Pelton is up to Dec 1942....and the panzerball is still something to be feared and I have 50+ Mobile Corps-Cav/Mech/Tank- over 2/3rds are guards and have full 3 SU each, as well as 12 Guard Rifle Corps w/3 SU each. Im just hoping when january hits and I can build a massive amount more Rifle Corps i will finally be able to stop the pacman panzerball assaults in 1943 and have the initiative to start pushing the war West for good. Yes Pelton is a very good player, but IMO I dont suck either and it really is impossible to stop the Soviet unit losses in 1942....Ive gotten to the point of just accepting their is nothing u can do but try not to lose so many your front critically weakens.

Also keep in mind this is with total Soviet Air superiority 13k+ Soviet aircraft vs only 1k luftwaffe....he no longer even contests the air over the main engagement sectors.

[charlie0311]

Chaos,

Ok, never said AI games were like the "real thing", hope I don't have to say that again.

I suggested a deployment for March '42 and said it would be quickly destroyed by the Pz ball and retreat would be necessary. With a suggestion on how to retreat, even to a lvl 2 line. That wouldn't hold either. Need x2 rxxx per hex for stop. Do you dispute this?

I also described how 16 Gd rxxx could provide 8 hexes of "stop", not stop the entire German army. OK?

I must have missed the part where I said life was "so simple" and that the axis players would let you build up in "peace". But, since you are such a good player, I must have said something like that so I will look again until I find it.

[Gabriel B.]

Regardles of the strategy you chose , strong armored forces deployed deep are a must .

the axis fields . 21 armored divisions , 10 mot, 3 SS mot (2 without LSAH ) , individualy none can witstand a deliberate atack but if the axis player stacks them up , you are not going to brake the pocket.

the advantage is that the outher (armored) encircelment ring is only 16 hexes hence the small pockets.

[loki100]

the point is with the 1.08.03/4 rules 'strategy' is irrelevant. In 1942 the Germans just march across the map and there is nothing you can do. I've just had a turn with 40+ defensive cv stacks chucked out of the way and another pocket created.

now its perfectly possible that returning to 45 NM will lead to the other problem of the Germans making no progress in 1942, I think we're all aware that this game tends to escalate small advantages with too few dampening effects.

So the only valid Soviet strategy for 1942 is to try and roughly work out how many units you can afford to lose, use them to delay, hope you don't lose more, run away.

[Gabriel B.]

ORIGINAL: loki100

I've just had a turn with 40+ defensive cv stacks chucked out of the way and another pocket created.

40+ defensive cv means nothing.

6 axis divisions with lousy 7-8 cv each, will crack it, in general when the AXIS cv matches the defensive cv, the atack succeds.

[timmyab]

Interesting discussion. I would be particularly interested to know what defensive tactics people employ generally. I know the German 42 panzerball will cut through any defense at the moment, but good defensive tactics will help to limit the damage and could prevent the dreaded breakout in the rear.
In particular I've noticed that players don't always make best use of rivers, especially in the South where they are often the only natural defense and are nicely positioned geographically. Good Soviet players usually defend river lines in strength whereas I've noticed that weaker players often don't. Sometimes it's like they actually don't see these little blue lines on the map or are unaware of their significance. Certainly when playing the Axis side it's the thing that leaves me most perplexed. I'm always thinking to myself "I can't believe he hasn't put any strength behind that river". Not so when playing a strong player.

From a strategy point of view clearly the Soviets should run in the South right through 1942. Hopefully the next patch will blunt the panzerball a bit, but not too much because for me the German 1942 offensive is the part of the game I enjoy the most whichever side I'm playing. I believe in an even contest the Soviet player should feel threatened and worried throughout 1942 if the game is going to be exciting.

[chaos45]

2x rifle corps per hex for 8 hexes = encirclement bait and with slow soviet movement once the initial encirclement happens those corps will all be dead within 3 turns and a massive un-recoverable loss in Soviet AP. As each corps is 45 AP without including support units.

Also you will need some rifle corps in the north and moscow sectors just to make it to where the Germans dont attempt to break those sectors instead of concentrating in the south. Thus IMO Rifle corps are in general more useful in the North/moscow areas than the south where than be easily flanked and encircled.

River lines are critical in the south. In general I like to have a picket line on the west side of the river and main lines on the east side. This forces Germans to spend more movement first clearing the pickets then crossing the river. Often buys the defender about an extra turn and the summer of 1942 is all about time and trying not to lose to much for the Soviets. If you look at my AAR pictures you can much of the fighting is in and around river lines, once the river line is truly lost I back off to the next river line.

This is not only for the defense bonus of the river....but also cost more MP for the Axis mobile units to cross the rivers thus they cant get as far into your rear areas when crossing a contested river. Alot of Soviet defense is about calculating/limiting axis MP for movement more than just pure defensive CV. Defense CV means something as the axis may have to do a couple full attacks instead of hasty attacks vs strong positions but in general any soviet defensive position in 1942 can be destroyed by a dedicated Axis attack and then the follow on units flow through.

Its why IMO as soviets it best to keep a frontline of 1-2 divisions or BDEs and everything else towards the rear in secondary lines/picket line zoc defense lines for counterattack mobility limitation on the Axis. You need more than just 1 BDE as the initial line or its to easy for German infantry to push aside. 2 Divisions up and a BDE behind seems to work alright or 1 div+ 1 BDE up and a division behind either seems to get close to the same effect especially once dug in to at least lvl 2.

Simple answer is accept you will lose armies and be ready with Stavka reserves to fill the holes. Have a large reserve counterattack force as the Soviets...you need this counterattack force to move in and keep the pocket open long enough for stavka reserve armies to fill in and start digging new positions while the 1-2 turns of counterattacks are tying up the German mobile units.

Again as per my AAR and advice you need at least 15 Soviet Cav corps as counterattack forces going into the Summer of 1942 preferrably more. Also start building and training tank corps ASAP...at least 10 I would say and build more as you get AP. Once you get up to 20 cav/20 tank corps its much more difficult for the germans to just run you over at will as you have a credible counterattack force than can even cut off German units they have to worry about.

[charlie0311]

Well, my friend Chaos insists on reading what he wants, or seems to want.

What I meant with my 8 hex stop, was, was, yes as you imagine, deploy the 16 grxxx in 8 hexes in a nice straight line, way out in the open, by themselves, no picket, no back-up, flanks wide open, no reserves. And a great big sign that says "please eat me".

'42 rxxx is 20 AP's. Plus a few for attachments.

The 8 hex stop was in response to Matt, who is trying to defend Moscow. Not to be used in the South.

River lines and terrain seems obvious, I thought, to everybody, so I saved myself a little typing time by not including this.

Have noticed that you have gotten more specific with your comments, a good thing.

What I have not seen is any comment on setting up rifle brigades in a command structure, ie, with hq and sappers. this gets better cv and digs faster. And, since the hq will be under Straka, you can move the Stravka HQ within 5 and get the benefit of massed sappers in Straka, gamey as hell.

Bonus, the "cut points", in morale, for reduced movement costs to enter ezoc are 56,71,86. If you ask real nice I will provide the manual source, or somebody else can provide. This matters, especially since you may not what your pickets to be brushed aside by hasty infantry attacks. Example, only the very best German inf (morale over 85) can hasty from 5 clear hexes, that would be 10 MP's burned to advance "to contact" then three (I think) for the hasty. That's in clear weather, so for the cold turns, the picket line can be closer.

Players should have 16 cav xxx by Dec '41, cost is 5 AP each, just don't lose the cav xx which come along as reinforcements. A few more trickle in early '42. That's going to be a lot of cav xxx, really cheap, not as mobile as txxx, but much, MUCH, more powerful.

[chaos45]

German infantry arent really a big problem on the move. Most of the time in the summer of 1942 the issue is the infantry get to your line and open the hole for the Armored forces. This saves the armored forces MP on the initial breakthrough and also allows some of the infantry divisions to guard/protect the first couple hexes of the encirclement. 3x German infantry divisions is very hard to push back...almost easier to hit 2-3x panzer/motorized division stacks. Again something you can see in AAR pictures.

Also i prefer to attack German mobile units to wear them down and exhaust more of thier fuel/supplies/trucks for later turns. You can capture a fair amount of trucks from axis mobile units with zoc'd retreat routes an such.

Most of the time the soviets ability to keep the pocket open and not risk additional encirclement ends once more and more axis infantry units filter into the situation. Also why its a good and basically necessary thing for the soviets to fall back after an encirclement is locked. Because if you dont the infantry will take over that entire encirclement and the German mobile formations will circle out and grab another quick pocket.

As to command and control of soviet units.....if your units are in combat is always best to have them at army command then to front command then to Stavka...increases CV by easily 2/3x most of the time if you have a decent leader. Also direct to stavka almost always costs CV value in final caluculations.

My general theory for back up defense lines was put stavka stuff way to rear on projects that wouldnt matter for awhile or put them on rail lines for easier supply flow. For units digging important lines in the winter of 41/42 for summer 1942 I used airborne corps for alot of them. After the winter I start to disband the airborne HQs to provide trucks/support squads to my newly forming tank armies. Not sure this was the best idea but its what i did, as I have had a constant manpower shortage for all of 1942 so needed the men to get my mobile armies to full strength.

I would for sure do some command/control things different and not mess up and attach an entire army to the wrong front like i did early in this game...something I still havent fixed thus the green colored units in the far south when most of that front is actually in the Tula area lol. However Im not going to waste AP fixing it and it really hasnt been critical to swap the army by rail all the way to Tula and replace it with a new army as of yet.

Command and control is really critical to everything you do in the game. Simple info is assign your best generals to your most important armies. My shock army generals are fairly decent to above average and my tank armies get the best Mech commanders I can find. Im keeping my shock armies all cavalry and thus using infantry commanders for them....also makes it to where I dont need a good mech/inf command since they are all cav corps and my tank armies are all mech/tank corps.

Im looking foreward to playing Soviets a second time through at some point...but really plan to wait for .05 as many changes wont affect .04 games in progress from what I understand due to OOB changes Im guessing.

1941- is actually very critical to the Soviets for 1942...how you build the army and the choices you make with AP you will be stuck with in 1942. Luckily my initial plan from game start worked out and the Cav Corps as per my initial analysis proved the best Soviet units to have in the field in 1942. Did I have perfect AP use no, but good enough to survive and build a fairly solid red army 2.0 so far.

1942- Aside from an axis auto win in 1941, 1942 is really the critical point in the game probably much more so than historical. The game more or less hits fantasy land compared to historical in 1942. The OOBs especially for the Axis are more powerful than any Axis dream situation and the Soviet OOB is only slightly stronger percentage wise than historical. This leads to much more powerful defense and offense from the Axis than any player with historical knowledge will expect. This leads to almost a 1941 situation for the Soviets again for 1942 with your real only hope being that you built a good cadre of counterattack formations to keep pockets kicking alittle longer and delaying the German super panzer army group. So the Soviets entire objective once more in 1942 is just to survive and try to limit the Axis OOB from growing even more so maybe in 1943 you can start to take the fight back to the Axis with your own now built and decently competent offensive forces.

Also 1942 you have to show some initiative as the Soviets if you let the Axis dictate the entire fight I think you will lose...sitting around with a blob defense will just get you slowly chewed up IMO. Your ability to organize successful counterattacks and pick good retreat lines/back up defense lines is critical. As well as decided when and how to back out of a battle in progress. You must pick your battles and realize when you have gained all you can gain from the situation and its time to cut your losses and run. Also try to get action going in quiet fronts if you can force the German player to commit more forces to the quiet sectors this strips them of infantry support in the main assault areas, forces them to rely on their axis allied units to hold the lines in places.

Cant comment on 43+ as we are just now getting to 1943 lol.

[STEF78]

Some thoughts from my poor 1942 experience:
- german offensive begins from the first turn of march and it is very powerfull
- north of Kaluga can be held because of swamps, woods....
- south of Kaluga, retreat begins the last turn of February, don't be caught by inf divs, they will make the hole and the Pzd will run behind
- use rivers
- be ready to retreat on the Volga and the caucasus mountains
- I agree with the creation of Cav corps to get your pockets alive one more turn.

[beekeeper]

sov defence very easy =) 4 line +1 line ,1-2 lvl fort =)

end april 42 - https://yadi.sk/d/HVLw-LTSj36Kr , pass 1qaz

and after summer you can start go west =) https://yadi.sk/d/23cD092yj36aR