Hi Bozo
fascinating and valid view, but it is *ahem* an AAR thread
Correct, my apologies. I just moved it.
A Grey Steppe Eagle (loki100 vs Vigabrand)
Moderators: Joel Billings, Sabre21
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Bozo_the_Clown
- Posts: 890
- Joined: Tue Jun 25, 2013 1:51 pm
- Location: Bozotown
RE: recon
Correct, my apologies. I just moved it.
RE: recon
ORIGINAL: Bozo_the_Clown
Can we get some input on how this patching process actually works? Who comes up with these design changes? Who decides which change gets implemented? Who does the beta testing?
Why no answer to this important question? I would like to know who pulls the strings behind the curtain. Is there something wrong with that? We are spending hours after hours playing this game. What if the entire process is rigged?
Sorry, no time to answer all posts.
List of people that took part in creating 1.08 is in the credits. Some work with me to this day. Some helped only once or twice. Those that are active have greater impact on the changes I propose, and/or they propose some changes that are later discussed, implemented, tested, altered, tested, accepted or dropped. Some people are more competetive types and they see things differently, than for example me. I try to make changes that make sense from logical and historical standpoint, while working around issues created by turn based IGoYouGo mechanics and problems with scale. Sometimes this forum and player's current problems are my source of inspiration. Of course playing 220 turn PBEMs to test impact of changes is impossible, so we have to make short tests or run AIvsAI games that don't show the whole picture so we have to rely on experience and intuition. This is a very iterative process and the adjustments can be made indefinitely. If you don't like those changes you could revert to 1.07.10, which is the last 2by3 WitE. 1.08 is a bit mine & the rest of beta team. It's impossible to achieve perfection with single patch, but we try to adapt and adjust. Hope you have more fun than anger in the process.
RE: recon
Dayum, I leave for a couple of weeks and dozens of divisions get encircled, Stavka loses morale, considers joining the gulags with e-Stalin, then changes its mind, grits its teeth and goes back to working on sending OKH to the other side of the Oder! My little peanut gallery heart barely managed to resist the shock!
Glad to see you didn't give up Loki, this AAR is a joy to read for those like me who don't have the time nor the hardware (my poor PC died an ignominious death and still hasn't been replaced) to play this game and have to vicariously experience it through your excellent reports. [&o]
Glad to see you didn't give up Loki, this AAR is a joy to read for those like me who don't have the time nor the hardware (my poor PC died an ignominious death and still hasn't been replaced) to play this game and have to vicariously experience it through your excellent reports. [&o]
RE: recon
ORIGINAL: Matnjord
Dayum, I leave for a couple of weeks and dozens of divisions get encircled, Stavka loses morale, considers joining the gulags with e-Stalin, then changes its mind, grits its teeth and goes back to working on sending OKH to the other side of the Oder! My little peanut gallery heart barely managed to resist the shock!
Glad to see you didn't give up Loki, this AAR is a joy to read for those like me who don't have the time nor the hardware (my poor PC died an ignominious death and still hasn't been replaced) to play this game and have to vicariously experience it through your excellent reports. [&o]
aye, we'll carry on, at the very worst, its a chance to explore the process of building the Red Army 2 and to see what happens. Problem is the current patch does seem to have thrown the balance of 1942 badly. Its the sort of thing that only really becomes obvious once you have a decent batch of games reach that stage as all the changes, in themselves, are reasonable and were aimed at ending the opposite problem of 1942 being a tedious variant of WW1 (the western version).
Turn 66: 17 – 23 September 1942
Turn 66: 17 – 23 September 1942
Strangely after the dramatic German victories in the previous week the level of fighting dropped.
(Soviet defensive positions near Kaluga)
Apart from ensuring that all the Soviet formations in the Bryansk pocket were cut off they did little to exploit their gains or Soviet disorganisation. However, their victory meant that over 500,000 men were now cut off.
Stavka ordered a further retreat to a line from Rzhev to Vyazma. Here the best formations of Kalinin Front occupied defensive positions that had been prepared in late 1941.
(Soviet armour dug in behind Vyazma)
It was hoped that such a strong defense on the southern approach to Moscow would force the Germans to either move their armour eastwards or north towards Rzhev. In either case this would cost them time, limiting their scope to exploit the current situation.
[1]
For the week, losses were actually light on both sides. The Germans lost 18,000 men (5,000 killed), 120 tanks and 65 planes. Soviet losses were 48,000 men (18,000 killed and 9,000 prisoners), 90 tanks and 120 planes.
[1] For once here is the actual final deployment. I'm showing it as the next turn sees all those 45-50+ defensive stacks just broken as the Germans advance at will. Since they are mostly made up of Gds, this is not the 40NM problem but that the Germans are simply now far too strong at this phase under the current patch.
Strangely after the dramatic German victories in the previous week the level of fighting dropped.
(Soviet defensive positions near Kaluga)
Apart from ensuring that all the Soviet formations in the Bryansk pocket were cut off they did little to exploit their gains or Soviet disorganisation. However, their victory meant that over 500,000 men were now cut off.
Stavka ordered a further retreat to a line from Rzhev to Vyazma. Here the best formations of Kalinin Front occupied defensive positions that had been prepared in late 1941.
(Soviet armour dug in behind Vyazma)
It was hoped that such a strong defense on the southern approach to Moscow would force the Germans to either move their armour eastwards or north towards Rzhev. In either case this would cost them time, limiting their scope to exploit the current situation.
[1]
For the week, losses were actually light on both sides. The Germans lost 18,000 men (5,000 killed), 120 tanks and 65 planes. Soviet losses were 48,000 men (18,000 killed and 9,000 prisoners), 90 tanks and 120 planes.
[1] For once here is the actual final deployment. I'm showing it as the next turn sees all those 45-50+ defensive stacks just broken as the Germans advance at will. Since they are mostly made up of Gds, this is not the 40NM problem but that the Germans are simply now far too strong at this phase under the current patch.
RE: Turn 66: 17 – 23 September 1942
It's interesting, because on the surface looking at GHC counters and CV vs Soviet Counters/CV, it would seem impossible to break the line. If the Germans can get 50 CV per hex and attack from 2 hexes (not easy at this point), they can barely muster 2:1 odds against a Soviet 50 CV stack. I realize that there are other factors, use of reserves etc... But what I've been seeing in my game in some combats is German CV going from 1000 to 2700 and soviet CV going from like 800 to 600 during the actual resolution. So by assumption this would imply that the initial attack is being made at far less than the 2:1 odds and yet still successful. I also notice that tons of support and air is committed by the attacker and far less air and support is committed by the defender. But with such massive inflation in CV for the German attacks, how can one possibly defend regardless of the defensive CV stacks you build...
RE: Turn 66: 17 – 23 September 1942
One should play with Alt CV to reduce amount by which CV on counter differs from actual CV in combat.
RE: Turn 66: 17 – 23 September 1942
Loki-First off your stacks are deceptively strong...most of your CV is coming from Fortifications.
If he organizes the attack right with Panzer units in the assault having alot of engineers none of your Fortification CV will count in the battle. So really all those stacks against the right assault forces are only 20 or so CV.
So not near as strong as they appear. Yes it will take an effort but since he is about 100% strength basically 1 panzer stack with a full attack can prolly break one of those hexes especially if he softens you up with airpower and uses a good German leader.
Your next issue is you army HQs should be parked on the tank corps- with that set up once he gets a hole he just has to drive thru and then that will displace your HQs making the entire rest of the line lose command and control and thus become a ton weaker. Always place HQs near the frontline with a combat unit even if its only a BDE of some sort so they can only be displaced by attacks not just German movement.
Also I dont know but if you moved them alot on your turn they could be quite fatigued which makes them fight worse by far. The germans due to higher experience level can move further and still fight well, Ive found soviet units if they move alot fight much worse end result.
Tank Corps as your reserves is abit weak- Cav Corps are much better as they have more Manpower- 1 battle and a Tank Corps is about useless for the rest of the turn. Also you should have your tank armies assigned to a front for more command rolls. Right now you get one roll probably at 6 Skill and then straight to Stavka....means if you fail the first roll your tank corps are actually fighting at about 25% or more less than printed CV. I did this by having one front that is nothing but tank/mech corps assigned to tank armies. Then where he moved the panzer ball I moved my entire tank front to match.
Shock armies = my local/front reserve forces and my tank front = my strategic reserves/counterpunch front. Still not sure I was happy splitting up all my shock armies 1 per front. It worked but until I got my tank front active later in 1942 it meant coordinated efforts between the shock armies was rough.
Just another key note but you always have to remember your fighting German movement as much as German CV. Really IMO should have left at least a 1 division screen in all that good terrain in front of your main position. Forces him to expend movement first to attack that unit then movement to actually move in and take the hex...not to mention more fatigue/disruption to his unit then your unit just gets pushed into the new MLR so not a bad thing. For this area being critical to Moscow I would have done a normal division screen then 2 div line then bde/div behind main line....then strategic reserves of picket lined tank/cav corps.
Other benefit of alot of units behind the MLR is you can put them all in reserve mode and usually get at least a couple defensive activations. I have found they rarely rout and even if they do and he wins it will just push the MLR troops back into the back up positions. You would be surprised sometimes 1 BDE defensively activating can shift the odds to just under 2.0 esp if the German player is doing hasty attacks or just trying to attack with enough to win to save MP for other moves/assaults. Creates uncertainty for the German player and forces overcommittment or failed attacks both good for you as Soviets.
Mattp- yes massive CV swings on assaults defense- alot has to do with how well prep'd the hex is and how good the leaders are more than anything. Lots of disruption/fatigue massively reduces final CV calculations. Is why having the best Soviet Generals in Key positions is critical. As it mitigates the German leadership edge in at least a couple locations. Next is bomb the German spearhead units every chance you get, and keep them in a Zoc if you can all the time. Dont let them get free turns of rest if they are trying to push assaults. Also if you leave them un- zoc'd you are losing out on german attrition.
A 500k pocket is a tough blow, but its almost mud and you have the reserves just a matter of rebuilding and digging in. Plus by 1943 your mobile forces will be stronger due to morale/experience increases not to mention better ToEs.
If he organizes the attack right with Panzer units in the assault having alot of engineers none of your Fortification CV will count in the battle. So really all those stacks against the right assault forces are only 20 or so CV.
So not near as strong as they appear. Yes it will take an effort but since he is about 100% strength basically 1 panzer stack with a full attack can prolly break one of those hexes especially if he softens you up with airpower and uses a good German leader.
Your next issue is you army HQs should be parked on the tank corps- with that set up once he gets a hole he just has to drive thru and then that will displace your HQs making the entire rest of the line lose command and control and thus become a ton weaker. Always place HQs near the frontline with a combat unit even if its only a BDE of some sort so they can only be displaced by attacks not just German movement.
Also I dont know but if you moved them alot on your turn they could be quite fatigued which makes them fight worse by far. The germans due to higher experience level can move further and still fight well, Ive found soviet units if they move alot fight much worse end result.
Tank Corps as your reserves is abit weak- Cav Corps are much better as they have more Manpower- 1 battle and a Tank Corps is about useless for the rest of the turn. Also you should have your tank armies assigned to a front for more command rolls. Right now you get one roll probably at 6 Skill and then straight to Stavka....means if you fail the first roll your tank corps are actually fighting at about 25% or more less than printed CV. I did this by having one front that is nothing but tank/mech corps assigned to tank armies. Then where he moved the panzer ball I moved my entire tank front to match.
Shock armies = my local/front reserve forces and my tank front = my strategic reserves/counterpunch front. Still not sure I was happy splitting up all my shock armies 1 per front. It worked but until I got my tank front active later in 1942 it meant coordinated efforts between the shock armies was rough.
Just another key note but you always have to remember your fighting German movement as much as German CV. Really IMO should have left at least a 1 division screen in all that good terrain in front of your main position. Forces him to expend movement first to attack that unit then movement to actually move in and take the hex...not to mention more fatigue/disruption to his unit then your unit just gets pushed into the new MLR so not a bad thing. For this area being critical to Moscow I would have done a normal division screen then 2 div line then bde/div behind main line....then strategic reserves of picket lined tank/cav corps.
Other benefit of alot of units behind the MLR is you can put them all in reserve mode and usually get at least a couple defensive activations. I have found they rarely rout and even if they do and he wins it will just push the MLR troops back into the back up positions. You would be surprised sometimes 1 BDE defensively activating can shift the odds to just under 2.0 esp if the German player is doing hasty attacks or just trying to attack with enough to win to save MP for other moves/assaults. Creates uncertainty for the German player and forces overcommittment or failed attacks both good for you as Soviets.
Mattp- yes massive CV swings on assaults defense- alot has to do with how well prep'd the hex is and how good the leaders are more than anything. Lots of disruption/fatigue massively reduces final CV calculations. Is why having the best Soviet Generals in Key positions is critical. As it mitigates the German leadership edge in at least a couple locations. Next is bomb the German spearhead units every chance you get, and keep them in a Zoc if you can all the time. Dont let them get free turns of rest if they are trying to push assaults. Also if you leave them un- zoc'd you are losing out on german attrition.
A 500k pocket is a tough blow, but its almost mud and you have the reserves just a matter of rebuilding and digging in. Plus by 1943 your mobile forces will be stronger due to morale/experience increases not to mention better ToEs.
RE: Turn 66: 17 – 23 September 1942
@morvael: "One should play with Alt CV to reduce amount by which CV on counter differs from actual CV in combat."
Is this variance display only? (I.e., the combat CV is the same in either case, one just sees it estimated in "alt CV" games.)
Is this variance display only? (I.e., the combat CV is the same in either case, one just sees it estimated in "alt CV" games.)
RE: Turn 66: 17 – 23 September 1942
rrbill- yes Alt- CV just shows u what the effective CV should be with command and control, and leadership taken into effect.
RE: Turn 66: 17 – 23 September 1942
Thanks much...
RE: Turn 66: 17 – 23 September 1942
ORIGINAL: chaos45
Loki-First off your stacks are deceptively strong...most of your CV is coming from Fortifications.
If he organizes the attack right with Panzer units in the assault having alot of engineers none of your Fortification CV will count in the battle. So really all those stacks against the right assault forces are only 20 or so CV.
Yet this sometimes doesn't work both ways. I had an attack with 7 soviet engineers against level 1 fort and in the battle fort was 1 > 1 not 1 > 0. Yet get attacked by GHC with 2 Engineers and fort 3 and Fort goes 3 > 0. Really weird.
Mattp- yes massive CV swings on assaults defense- alot has to do with how well prep'd the hex is and how good the leaders are more than anything. Lots of disruption/fatigue massively reduces final CV calculations. Is why having the best Soviet Generals in Key positions is critical. As it mitigates the German leadership edge in at least a couple locations. Next is bomb the German spearhead units every chance you get, and keep them in a Zoc if you can all the time. Dont let them get free turns of rest if they are trying to push assaults. Also if you leave them un- zoc'd you are losing out on german attrition.
Well, there is of course no way to check the fatigue of the enemy, but one would think fatigue would be even for both. To me though one of the biggest difference is that just in general attacking forces bring more support than defensive forces.
rrbill- yes Alt- CV just shows u what the effective CV should be with command and control, and leadership taken into effect.
I actually played the GC ALT CV a few times and really liked it, but stopped because no one else plays it.
RE: Turn 66: 17 – 23 September 1942
Agreed German engineers seem much more effective- think its probably because they are 70+ experience and Soviet Sappers are only 50ish experience for through 1942.
As to fatigue its effects are also based on experience is my understanding from reading the rule book- so Germans even with higher levels of fatigue are less affected than Soviet units due to higher/lower experience difference.
Its why 1 million more German infantry on the battlefield is so much more telling than 1 million more Soviets as its a ton more combat power/CV due to the higher experience/morale rating of the Germans especially once Soviets drop to 40.
Actually started an Alt CV game with my friend I wish he would continue lol....what I dont like is the numbers are much more accurate and Im used to the printed CV in the normal and making a judgement to attack or not based on intuition and since the numbers as so much more accurate in alt CV I fail more often lol.....as Im used to okay 1.5 should be good enough despite what my counters show in normal mode lol.
As to fatigue its effects are also based on experience is my understanding from reading the rule book- so Germans even with higher levels of fatigue are less affected than Soviet units due to higher/lower experience difference.
Its why 1 million more German infantry on the battlefield is so much more telling than 1 million more Soviets as its a ton more combat power/CV due to the higher experience/morale rating of the Germans especially once Soviets drop to 40.
Actually started an Alt CV game with my friend I wish he would continue lol....what I dont like is the numbers are much more accurate and Im used to the printed CV in the normal and making a judgement to attack or not based on intuition and since the numbers as so much more accurate in alt CV I fail more often lol.....as Im used to okay 1.5 should be good enough despite what my counters show in normal mode lol.
RE: Turn 66: 17 – 23 September 1942
I'm seeing no modified values for German units that often start a turn in a level 1 fort at 10%. That's not using alt-cv so using it may be the way to go.
RE: Turn 66: 17 – 23 September 1942
ORIGINAL: mattp
It's interesting, because on the surface looking at GHC counters and CV vs Soviet Counters/CV, it would seem impossible to break the line. If the Germans can get 50 CV per hex and attack from 2 hexes (not easy at this point), they can barely muster 2:1 odds against a Soviet 50 CV stack. I realize that there are other factors, use of reserves etc... But what I've been seeing in my game in some combats is German CV going from 1000 to 2700 and soviet CV going from like 800 to 600 during the actual resolution. So by assumption this would imply that the initial attack is being made at far less than the 2:1 odds and yet still successful. I also notice that tons of support and air is committed by the attacker and far less air and support is committed by the defender. But with such massive inflation in CV for the German attacks, how can one possibly defend regardless of the defensive CV stacks you build...
In the main you rarely see much of a gain for the defensive side (sometimes up 50% but most likely down a bit) but quite often a doubling-trebling of the shown cv for the attacker.
I exploit this with the Soviets, especially if I know I can trigger additional disruptions (air attacks) then I'll often risk an attack at 1.4:1. Problem is you do get burnt, not least for the Soviets the shown German cv on map can be wildly misleading ... even if the units have been in contact before you attack
Frustrating bit for me was that sector has people like Tolbukhin, Vatutin and Vasilevsky leading the armies and Koniev at front level. And is stuffed with support units.
ORIGINAL: morvael
One should play with Alt CV to reduce amount by which CV on counter differs from actual CV in combat.
ORIGINAL: rrbill
@morvael: "One should play with Alt CV to reduce amount by which CV on counter differs from actual CV in combat."
Is this variance display only? (I.e., the combat CV is the same in either case, one just sees it estimated in "alt CV" games.)
ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS
I'm seeing no modified values for German units that often start a turn in a level 1 fort at 10%. That's not using alt-cv so using it may be the way to go.
Oddly I find the alt-cv confusing [;)]. Have got so used to making mental adjustments that I end up losing a load of battles as the expected shifts don't happen. But for testing out ideas, such as the impact of leadership, command limits, support units and so on it is very informative as a mode.
ORIGINAL: chaos45
Agreed German engineers seem much more effective- think its probably because they are 70+ experience and Soviet Sappers are only 50ish experience for through 1942.
As to fatigue its effects are also based on experience is my understanding from reading the rule book- so Germans even with higher levels of fatigue are less affected than Soviet units due to higher/lower experience difference.
Its why 1 million more German infantry on the battlefield is so much more telling than 1 million more Soviets as its a ton more combat power/CV due to the higher experience/morale rating of the Germans especially once Soviets drop to 40.
...
you see that a lot in 1941. Move a German infantry division too far and it flips from say 10cv to 9. Move a Soviet division and it flips from 2 to 1. The practical impact is you can drive the Germans much more while I worry about any of my units with much > 30-35 fatigue
ORIGINAL: chaos45
Loki-First off your stacks are deceptively strong...most of your CV is coming from Fortifications.
If he organizes the attack right with Panzer units in the assault having alot of engineers none of your Fortification CV will count in the battle. So really all those stacks against the right assault forces are only 20 or so CV.
So not near as strong as they appear. Yes it will take an effort but since he is about 100% strength basically 1 panzer stack with a full attack can prolly break one of those hexes especially if he softens you up with airpower and uses a good German leader.
Your next issue is you army HQs should be parked on the tank corps- with that set up once he gets a hole he just has to drive thru and then that will displace your HQs making the entire rest of the line lose command and control and thus become a ton weaker. Always place HQs near the frontline with a combat unit even if its only a BDE of some sort so they can only be displaced by attacks not just German movement.
Also I dont know but if you moved them alot on your turn they could be quite fatigued which makes them fight worse by far. The germans due to higher experience level can move further and still fight well, Ive found soviet units if they move alot fight much worse end result.
Tank Corps as your reserves is abit weak- Cav Corps are much better as they have more Manpower- 1 battle and a Tank Corps is about useless for the rest of the turn. Also you should have your tank armies assigned to a front for more command rolls. Right now you get one roll probably at 6 Skill and then straight to Stavka....means if you fail the first roll your tank corps are actually fighting at about 25% or more less than printed CV. I did this by having one front that is nothing but tank/mech corps assigned to tank armies. Then where he moved the panzer ball I moved my entire tank front to match.
Shock armies = my local/front reserve forces and my tank front = my strategic reserves/counterpunch front. Still not sure I was happy splitting up all my shock armies 1 per front. It worked but until I got my tank front active later in 1942 it meant coordinated efforts between the shock armies was rough.
Just another key note but you always have to remember your fighting German movement as much as German CV. Really IMO should have left at least a 1 division screen in all that good terrain in front of your main position. Forces him to expend movement first to attack that unit then movement to actually move in and take the hex...not to mention more fatigue/disruption to his unit then your unit just gets pushed into the new MLR so not a bad thing. For this area being critical to Moscow I would have done a normal division screen then 2 div line then bde/div behind main line....then strategic reserves of picket lined tank/cav corps.
Other benefit of alot of units behind the MLR is you can put them all in reserve mode and usually get at least a couple defensive activations. I have found they rarely rout and even if they do and he wins it will just push the MLR troops back into the back up positions. You would be surprised sometimes 1 BDE defensively activating can shift the odds to just under 2.0 esp if the German player is doing hasty attacks or just trying to attack with enough to win to save MP for other moves/assaults. Creates uncertainty for the German player and forces overcommittment or failed attacks both good for you as Soviets.
Mattp- yes massive CV swings on assaults defense- alot has to do with how well prep'd the hex is and how good the leaders are more than anything. Lots of disruption/fatigue massively reduces final CV calculations. Is why having the best Soviet Generals in Key positions is critical. As it mitigates the German leadership edge in at least a couple locations. Next is bomb the German spearhead units every chance you get, and keep them in a Zoc if you can all the time. Dont let them get free turns of rest if they are trying to push assaults. Also if you leave them un- zoc'd you are losing out on german attrition.
A 500k pocket is a tough blow, but its almost mud and you have the reserves just a matter of rebuilding and digging in. Plus by 1943 your mobile forces will be stronger due to morale/experience increases not to mention better ToEs.
all I can say is that in the circumstances that was the best defense I could muster. You would have done it differently, which is one of the great things about this game, that there are different perceptions of best/worst options and approaches. The reason I put that image in is further to support the argument that 1942 has got skewed and its not just the impact of the 40 NM. I realise there are better layouts in theory and so on. Best I could manage but its informative.
RE: Turn 66: 17 – 23 September 1942
mattp- another thing on Germans getting more support- they have better leaders in General. German leaders overall have higher skill levels than Soviet leaders and this inlcudes initiative which is the key stat for reserves committment.
From what Ive seen and memory Soviets in general are rather low on initiative only a couple generals have an initiative above 6.
Germans have a ton of 7/7/7 generals- by that I mean generals that are at least 7 Morale/7 inf or mech/7 initiative.
Soviets on the other hand have to make due with mostly 5-6 skill level in all 3 of those critical stats aside from probably 4-5 top generals. Which since you have vastly more forces in play and low Command and control per army and no corps means your few good leaders honestly affect a small area of the entire frontline.
On the other hand the Germans can put a super great general with a load of support units at Army or Corps level and modify alot of combats. The super Army Pelton is always talkign about. Basically will never fail command rolls and almost always get a ton of support units involved in the defense.
As the Soviets you have to try and make the best use of your good generals...usually I do this by having my Shock armies have my best commanders...then when I launch key attacks I make sure more Command points of units from the shock army are involved than other armies so the shock army takes the lead for leadership rolls. So 1 good shock army general can often influence 3-4 attacks a round easily if done right. Defense is abit harder unless the Shock army units are attacked. About the only thing you can do here is put 1 corps from the shock army across 5 hexes of the line with a division+BDE from another army should still give the shock army the battle leadership.
From what Ive seen and memory Soviets in general are rather low on initiative only a couple generals have an initiative above 6.
Germans have a ton of 7/7/7 generals- by that I mean generals that are at least 7 Morale/7 inf or mech/7 initiative.
Soviets on the other hand have to make due with mostly 5-6 skill level in all 3 of those critical stats aside from probably 4-5 top generals. Which since you have vastly more forces in play and low Command and control per army and no corps means your few good leaders honestly affect a small area of the entire frontline.
On the other hand the Germans can put a super great general with a load of support units at Army or Corps level and modify alot of combats. The super Army Pelton is always talkign about. Basically will never fail command rolls and almost always get a ton of support units involved in the defense.
As the Soviets you have to try and make the best use of your good generals...usually I do this by having my Shock armies have my best commanders...then when I launch key attacks I make sure more Command points of units from the shock army are involved than other armies so the shock army takes the lead for leadership rolls. So 1 good shock army general can often influence 3-4 attacks a round easily if done right. Defense is abit harder unless the Shock army units are attacked. About the only thing you can do here is put 1 corps from the shock army across 5 hexes of the line with a division+BDE from another army should still give the shock army the battle leadership.
-
Gabriel B.
- Posts: 501
- Joined: Mon Jun 24, 2013 9:44 am
RE: Turn 66: 17 – 23 September 1942
5 initiative is the average for army commanders, 6 for front.
You need also to use army leaders with 4 initiative skill , just to add meat to the grinder , not lead the fight for the hex.
You need also to use army leaders with 4 initiative skill , just to add meat to the grinder , not lead the fight for the hex.
Turn 67: 24-30 September 1942
Turn 67: 24-30 September 1942
The end of September saw the Germans renew their offensive. Soviet positions to the north and east of Vyazma were shattered as defensive lines prepared in late 1941 were breached in a matter of hours.
Sevastopol continued to face an unrelenting air assault. Despite deploying additional PVO AA formations to the city, no significant losses were inflicted on the Romanian planes (the one shown in that image is their first in about 10 raids spread across September).
In a desperate attempt to shore up morale, Stavka ordered more promotions for commanders and key formations.
[1]
North of Lipetsk, Stavka ordered a major tank raid on the over confident Germans. While there was no optimism that this sector could be held if the Germans committed their main formations, the Soviets intended to disrupt their build up before having to fall back eastwards.
The units cut off to the north of Vyazma were abandoned to their fate but before the Soviet defenders around the city could pull back it was essential to eliminate the German salient to their rear.
4 Army's opening attack failed but a second attack managed to drive the Germans back
[2]
(elements of 4 Army in action)
With their line of retreat cut, the German 10 Mot division was routed by elements of 3 Tank Army
Mounting tank losses was leading to greater use of British and American Lend lease armour in the combat formations.
(Lend lease Churchills moving back after the fighting west of Vyazma)
With this, Vyazma was abandoned as Stavka hastily re-organised an attempt to defend the approaches to Moscow. Freshly raised, poorly trained formations were allocated to the battered Volkhov Front in an attempt to construct an effective defense.
OOB Changes
Soviet losses were massive as the formations in the Bryansk pocket were destroyed. The Germans lost 26,000 men (10,000 killed), 300 tanks and 95 planes but Soviet losses were 520,000 men (18,000 killed, 465,000 prisoners), 900 tanks and 250 planes.
The need to concentrate at Moscow led to a massive redeployment from the south. It was assumed the Germans would easily reach the Volga and the Caucasus and the preservation of the remaining army was more important than any city or river line.
[1] At least that means I can give Zakharov a Front command with no extra penalty
[2] Which of course means that some elite units were out of MP, couldn't fall back, so will probably be lost next turn
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The only thing that seemed to matter was the defense of Moscow. The Germans were unstoppable and the only hope was to commit almost every available unit to delay their advance.
(also most of the 540 on the Leningrad Front are U2VS)
I was able to briefly meet Sacha as his squadron was ordered back from the Urals and thrown into the fighting in support of the Kalinin Front formations.
The end of September saw the Germans renew their offensive. Soviet positions to the north and east of Vyazma were shattered as defensive lines prepared in late 1941 were breached in a matter of hours.
Sevastopol continued to face an unrelenting air assault. Despite deploying additional PVO AA formations to the city, no significant losses were inflicted on the Romanian planes (the one shown in that image is their first in about 10 raids spread across September).
In a desperate attempt to shore up morale, Stavka ordered more promotions for commanders and key formations.
[1]
North of Lipetsk, Stavka ordered a major tank raid on the over confident Germans. While there was no optimism that this sector could be held if the Germans committed their main formations, the Soviets intended to disrupt their build up before having to fall back eastwards.
The units cut off to the north of Vyazma were abandoned to their fate but before the Soviet defenders around the city could pull back it was essential to eliminate the German salient to their rear.
4 Army's opening attack failed but a second attack managed to drive the Germans back
[2]
(elements of 4 Army in action)
With their line of retreat cut, the German 10 Mot division was routed by elements of 3 Tank Army
Mounting tank losses was leading to greater use of British and American Lend lease armour in the combat formations.
(Lend lease Churchills moving back after the fighting west of Vyazma)
With this, Vyazma was abandoned as Stavka hastily re-organised an attempt to defend the approaches to Moscow. Freshly raised, poorly trained formations were allocated to the battered Volkhov Front in an attempt to construct an effective defense.
OOB Changes
Soviet losses were massive as the formations in the Bryansk pocket were destroyed. The Germans lost 26,000 men (10,000 killed), 300 tanks and 95 planes but Soviet losses were 520,000 men (18,000 killed, 465,000 prisoners), 900 tanks and 250 planes.
The need to concentrate at Moscow led to a massive redeployment from the south. It was assumed the Germans would easily reach the Volga and the Caucasus and the preservation of the remaining army was more important than any city or river line.
[1] At least that means I can give Zakharov a Front command with no extra penalty
[2] Which of course means that some elite units were out of MP, couldn't fall back, so will probably be lost next turn
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The only thing that seemed to matter was the defense of Moscow. The Germans were unstoppable and the only hope was to commit almost every available unit to delay their advance.
(also most of the 540 on the Leningrad Front are U2VS)
I was able to briefly meet Sacha as his squadron was ordered back from the Urals and thrown into the fighting in support of the Kalinin Front formations.
RE: Turn 67: 24-30 September 1942
Well, things are looking quite grim now. Are you deliberately raising the tension for the sake of the AAr or are you genuinely concerned about your chances of survival?
Of course you are allowed not to answer this question to preserve your artistic integrity[;)]
Of course you are allowed not to answer this question to preserve your artistic integrity[;)]
RE: Turn 67: 24-30 September 1942
ORIGINAL: Matnjord
Well, things are looking quite grim now. Are you deliberately raising the tension for the sake of the AAr or are you genuinely concerned about your chances of survival?
Of course you are allowed not to answer this question to preserve your artistic integrity[;)]
oh its grim, vigabrand is eating up the equivalent of an army every other turn, so I can't even raise fresh formations fast enough to replace my losses ... I have the manpower (off map), but not the on-map formations to draw it into the game.
returning to 45 NM from 1 October is a relief and getting the late 42/early 43 corps ToEs will help (its at that stage that its easy to ensure your corps are >10 as opposed to in the 7-10 range depending on their type).