cant seem to open and look at any of your links.
However I dont think its as easy as it seems...even 4 lines of junk units is easy to push aside. Not to mention at current not seeing how many if any soviet players can form enough units by march 1942 to have 4 lines of anything but utter crap Soviet units. Unless the German player has a super crappy 1941 isnt really any way for a Soviet player to be strong across the entire front...so basically you have to be strong in the north/moscow otherwise the German play will see the weakness and grab all that awesome terrain easily.
So you have to be weaker in the south and due to the open terrain/lack of massive troop density its just an exercise in losing units at a controlled pace in the current version of the game. Look at your game vs Stef....I see quite a few Soviet units on the map yet you fairly easily broke through and managed to drive what 100+ miles through soviet territory in 1 week. Simple fact is the Germans are super uber in 1942.....to uber I dont know will see how 1943 goes in my current match. They are performing far better than historical as far as combat power goes. An the only reason territory gains might be slightly less than historical is because German players dont want to expose flanks/weak points to soviet attacks...so if they took more risk like historical germany did they could easily get historical or better than historical territorial gains at the moment.
like i have said several times now im not advocating for reduced german capabilities yet as I want to see if the balance shifts to heavily/quickly to the soviets in 43/44.
With much bloodshed and I think some very good/close fights I managed to keep Pelton to about an overall historical 1942 performance from the Germans. Yes he didnt get as much of the south but he got still has more of the north and upper south than historical so that balances out land area wise. We have a pretty much even historical type match going on right now up to Dec 1942....the big issue is no exposed flanks means no decent Soviet counter-offensive in late 1942/early 1943....just slow grinding attritional attacks mainly.
My own personal opinion is the Soviet mobile corps are rated to low in 1942 is a big part of the problem. The Germans basically have no fear/dont need to worry about a soviet mechanized breakthrough. If Soviets get 45 NM back that might help put some teeth back in their mobile corps alittle earlier in 1942. By late 1942 the soviet mech/tank corps should be something to worry the Germans and really they still arent even at 90% ToE w/ 3 support units.
Soviet defensive tactics 41/42
Moderators: Joel Billings, Sabre21
RE: Soviet defensive tactics 41/42
https://dropmefiles.com/Auepw
it easy =)and german not uber, stef doing tine lines =) 1 fort 2 lvl whis 2 div cant stop PZ army =)
it easy =)and german not uber, stef doing tine lines =) 1 fort 2 lvl whis 2 div cant stop PZ army =)
RE: Soviet defensive tactics 41/42
Looking over the saves you posted.....the German player is doing very badly is why you think the game is fine.
Look at axis losses they are double just about every other game, and you still hold leningrad. Pelton proved you can take leningrad no matter how good the defense is in March 1942 once the blizzard penalties end. My leningrad defenses in March 1942 were better than what you have there in this game and I still lost the city.
You evacuated almost all Soviet industry and managed to to keep the German player at around 3M men total. Was all this played under 1.08+ game version?
Every other game since 1.08.04 we have seen almost 4M man German armies....so taking almost 1M german troops out of the game in your situation is a much much different game.
Also was this with reduced blizzard? +1 soviet attack odds? those are all things that factor....most games now are playing with reduced blizzard conditions and no +1 soviet attack. ---hmm guess I can reload the save and look to see this info have to do that lol
So after checking game was done with +1 Soviet attack modifier explains some of the higher German losses...but still curious how the Axis player managed to take such heavy losses.....as these numbers seem to be about twice as high as most other games by the turn points you posted. Also game seems to have been under a different game version as the logistics log looks way different from what I see since 1.08+
Has to be an older version of the game as all Soviet units are also still 45+ morale so this is not under the current game version and thus no use to the current discussion.
You give me a 7M man soviet army against only 3M germans and its a completely different game. That extra million Germans is the huge problem I think most Soviet players are having trouble dealing with as the German infantry are staying at 90% ToE which allows them to keep higher morale from not being successfully attacked.
Please keep game files you want to use to back up a case to the current game version as 1.08+ changed alot of stuff in the game. Soviet NM being a huge massive one.
Look at axis losses they are double just about every other game, and you still hold leningrad. Pelton proved you can take leningrad no matter how good the defense is in March 1942 once the blizzard penalties end. My leningrad defenses in March 1942 were better than what you have there in this game and I still lost the city.
You evacuated almost all Soviet industry and managed to to keep the German player at around 3M men total. Was all this played under 1.08+ game version?
Every other game since 1.08.04 we have seen almost 4M man German armies....so taking almost 1M german troops out of the game in your situation is a much much different game.
Also was this with reduced blizzard? +1 soviet attack odds? those are all things that factor....most games now are playing with reduced blizzard conditions and no +1 soviet attack. ---hmm guess I can reload the save and look to see this info have to do that lol
So after checking game was done with +1 Soviet attack modifier explains some of the higher German losses...but still curious how the Axis player managed to take such heavy losses.....as these numbers seem to be about twice as high as most other games by the turn points you posted. Also game seems to have been under a different game version as the logistics log looks way different from what I see since 1.08+
Has to be an older version of the game as all Soviet units are also still 45+ morale so this is not under the current game version and thus no use to the current discussion.
You give me a 7M man soviet army against only 3M germans and its a completely different game. That extra million Germans is the huge problem I think most Soviet players are having trouble dealing with as the German infantry are staying at 90% ToE which allows them to keep higher morale from not being successfully attacked.
Please keep game files you want to use to back up a case to the current game version as 1.08+ changed alot of stuff in the game. Soviet NM being a huge massive one.
RE: Soviet defensive tactics 41/42
ORIGINAL: charlie0311
Matt,
I know everything depends, I think you can stop the Axis, even the most powerful stuff, with Gds rxxx. Double stacked, they entrench fast, and should easy get def cv over 100.
You would need 32 Gd Rxx's in reserve having been pulled from the line in late winter or spring, then 16 rxx from the front defending Moscow. That would get 4 xxxx's each with 4 GdRxxx, 8 hexs of "stop". Gds Cav xxx behind to counter/attack. Also enough room in the front cp to have some more stuff on reserve activation.
Yes, but how many GDS Rifle corps does one have spring of 42. Sure, I could probably create a few stacks like this and the whole lot would be avoided and encircled. The Germans can shift their panzer Ball with more efficiency that the Russians can counter. So unless you have a few hundred guards rifle corps this just doesn't work.
In early June, my opponent attacked my front by Lenningrad, got an encirclement and I shifted strength from the center to the Lenningrad front. He then pushed east a bit, finished off the encirclement, and the following turn shifted everything back to the Moscow front my recon discovered. So I shifted again, built a 40-50 CV wall and he just cut right through it including the 2nd and 3rd line and encircled probably 30 units. Mostly divisions, 1 corps I think, but several hundred thousand men for sure. His breakthrough was mostly a single hex wide, but stacked 3 deep the whole way with pz divisions and mot divisions. I broke it in two places, but he closed it again and made it stronger. The point is, these guys are doomed and though I can build another new wall of perhaps even higher CV, the turn after he finishes the pocket he'll slice through it again, rinse and repeat. Each time I'll lose a few hundred thousand men. So this 4-5 turn process will continue until mud, so probably 3 more times as it's July. So figure i'll take another 700,000 casualties from encirclement. What I'm starting to think now is to stop building up Rifle Corps solely to stop losing the AP if they get encirceled and to just fight him with divisions until this madness ends and THEN build up the corps in early '43. So to change strategy a bit to be more AP conservative. Losing 20 rifle divisions is far more effective than losing 10 rifle divisions and 10 rifle/tank corps.
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charlie0311
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- Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2013 11:15 am
RE: Soviet defensive tactics 41/42
Matt, ok so eight wasn't the right number to pick, rxxx become avail in Jun. Before that you suffer.
If you can manage 50 gdrd from the blizzard offensive, and have 500 AP's ready to go for Jun. 25x20 = 500 AP's, and 25 gd rxxx, kind of a best case scenario. You can replace the gdrxx's from the front with 50 morale rxx formed from brigades. Build a lot of brigades.
Only presented this idea as an option. Point is rxxx 2 per hex is a much higher def cv than 50, you will see for yourself, maybe already have.
With 20 rxxx and another 20 cavxxx, summer is not all slaughter for the sov
I picked eight because is was easier, I though, to do the math with. Did not say that would stop the axis army. 16 fit nicely into one front, maybe I should have said that, and actually I did.
For the second time now, never said 8 rxxx stops the German. Am saying 2x rxxx per hex ain't gonna get moved, approx. over 100 def cv. Show me how that's wrong. Well, I could do it, but it takes a very well organized attack and you won't be able to do many of these in one turn. Even when you knock it back, the second line has a lvl 2 cav xxx.
If you can manage 50 gdrd from the blizzard offensive, and have 500 AP's ready to go for Jun. 25x20 = 500 AP's, and 25 gd rxxx, kind of a best case scenario. You can replace the gdrxx's from the front with 50 morale rxx formed from brigades. Build a lot of brigades.
Only presented this idea as an option. Point is rxxx 2 per hex is a much higher def cv than 50, you will see for yourself, maybe already have.
With 20 rxxx and another 20 cavxxx, summer is not all slaughter for the sov
I picked eight because is was easier, I though, to do the math with. Did not say that would stop the axis army. 16 fit nicely into one front, maybe I should have said that, and actually I did.
For the second time now, never said 8 rxxx stops the German. Am saying 2x rxxx per hex ain't gonna get moved, approx. over 100 def cv. Show me how that's wrong. Well, I could do it, but it takes a very well organized attack and you won't be able to do many of these in one turn. Even when you knock it back, the second line has a lvl 2 cav xxx.
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charlie0311
- Posts: 940
- Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2013 11:15 am
RE: Soviet defensive tactics 41/42
Would be kinda nice if matrix would fix the edit function.
I know the shock of opening a turn and seeing a disaster, just trying to help.
I know the shock of opening a turn and seeing a disaster, just trying to help.
RE: Soviet defensive tactics 41/42
Yes you guys are getting my points now....the Soviets need to stay mobile as much as possible with Corps in 1942 which is why IMO Cav/Tank/mech corps are the way to go. They get enough movement that if you make a hole they can usually attempt to get out.
Rifle Corps cant move fast enough to counterattack or escape pockets. I think some rifle corps used to shore up the north and moscow is necessary also helps keep the Germans honest as they cant leave a total crap line up there if you have several corps you can hit back with. The terrain and fortified levels will usually keep encirclement difficult up there to so flanks arent as big a concern as they are in the south.
Its why I have only built 12 Rifle corps.....but built 50+ Cav/tank/mech corps with my AP instead.
Rifle Corps cant move fast enough to counterattack or escape pockets. I think some rifle corps used to shore up the north and moscow is necessary also helps keep the Germans honest as they cant leave a total crap line up there if you have several corps you can hit back with. The terrain and fortified levels will usually keep encirclement difficult up there to so flanks arent as big a concern as they are in the south.
Its why I have only built 12 Rifle corps.....but built 50+ Cav/tank/mech corps with my AP instead.
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charlie0311
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RE: Soviet defensive tactics 41/42
Can't get all that built until Oct or so. Another 500 or so AP's. Assuming you are building txxxx hqs, starting in Jul.
RE: Soviet defensive tactics 41/42
U can start tank corps in April. An yes I was building those units all summer long.
By March I was at 19-20 cav corps
By March I was at 19-20 cav corps
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charlie0311
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RE: Soviet defensive tactics 41/42
yep, 20 cav xxx by spring, get enough cav xx (approx.) from the reinforcements.
Apr tx xxx, not really so hot, what's the cv, only three, 5 or maybe 6 with attachments.
T-34 upgrade, starts in Jul, then Tk xxxx HQ (jul, again), new leaders, all very expensive. tk xxx cv doesn't get much over 10 unless GD, (better TOE), even then not as high as the cav. Mech doesn't even begin as xxx until sep.
The consensus seems to favor the Apr tk xxx anyway. And, I see a lot of lines with the 50 def cv just getting blown away. Why not run, to the Oka in the north and the Moscow area, all the way to the Volga in the center if necessary. The Don in the south isn't that much help, run when you see the axis massing.
Apr tx xxx, not really so hot, what's the cv, only three, 5 or maybe 6 with attachments.
T-34 upgrade, starts in Jul, then Tk xxxx HQ (jul, again), new leaders, all very expensive. tk xxx cv doesn't get much over 10 unless GD, (better TOE), even then not as high as the cav. Mech doesn't even begin as xxx until sep.
The consensus seems to favor the Apr tk xxx anyway. And, I see a lot of lines with the 50 def cv just getting blown away. Why not run, to the Oka in the north and the Moscow area, all the way to the Volga in the center if necessary. The Don in the south isn't that much help, run when you see the axis massing.
RE: Soviet defensive tactics 41/42
it game was summer 2014, +1 sov att, red blizzard
but i think principle of the sov defense has not changed - 4+1 lines , if not have - run and dig 4+1 =)
but i think principle of the sov defense has not changed - 4+1 lines , if not have - run and dig 4+1 =)
RE: Soviet defensive tactics 41/42
If you just run the axis just advance and you dont buy time. You are basically sacrificing troops to save your cities/land further into the Soviet union.
You could run but you will lose far to much population if you just run as you would still be stuck defending a long line along the OKA and losing everything Saratov south plus maybe more such as Penza and several of the cities north of there since the OKA doesnt screen them.
To me running that much isnt an option plus if you dont fight you dont wear down the Axis forces at all. You can eventually wear them down by fighting heavily and counterattacking the panzers. My game vs Pelton proves that. As I have inflicted close to the highest losses on the Axis in that game since 1.08+ and it has worked his army is no longer over 4M and he has started some disbands to keep his line infantry strength up.
Beekeeper....your saved game has to many different variables over current game rules and game results to be valid for 1.08+. An axis army with 1 million more men and a soviet army with 5 less National Morale are massive changes to how the game works. A 5 point national morale shift is somewhere around a 10-15% change in CV value for your entire army. So in 1.08+ we are seeing a German army that is 25% stronger on average and a soviet army that starts 1942 10% weaker due to NM changes and most likely gets quickly even weaker due to how much stronger the Axis forces are with those extra 1M men in combat. Those are reasons your older tactics and strategy are no longer valid.
As all in all since 1.08+ the balance has effectively shifted 25-35% towards the Axis when you look at total Army CV value by the summer of 1942.
You could run but you will lose far to much population if you just run as you would still be stuck defending a long line along the OKA and losing everything Saratov south plus maybe more such as Penza and several of the cities north of there since the OKA doesnt screen them.
To me running that much isnt an option plus if you dont fight you dont wear down the Axis forces at all. You can eventually wear them down by fighting heavily and counterattacking the panzers. My game vs Pelton proves that. As I have inflicted close to the highest losses on the Axis in that game since 1.08+ and it has worked his army is no longer over 4M and he has started some disbands to keep his line infantry strength up.
Beekeeper....your saved game has to many different variables over current game rules and game results to be valid for 1.08+. An axis army with 1 million more men and a soviet army with 5 less National Morale are massive changes to how the game works. A 5 point national morale shift is somewhere around a 10-15% change in CV value for your entire army. So in 1.08+ we are seeing a German army that is 25% stronger on average and a soviet army that starts 1942 10% weaker due to NM changes and most likely gets quickly even weaker due to how much stronger the Axis forces are with those extra 1M men in combat. Those are reasons your older tactics and strategy are no longer valid.
As all in all since 1.08+ the balance has effectively shifted 25-35% towards the Axis when you look at total Army CV value by the summer of 1942.
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charlie0311
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- Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2013 11:15 am
RE: Soviet defensive tactics 41/42
Take a look at where the manpower comes from, production symbol, the click on "manpower" or whatever the word is below, you can lose many cities.
Pelton gave you many opportunities to attack single units. First you say "not enough" losses in the game, now you say look at all these Axis losses. Huh?
Not against counter-attacking. M-60 seems to have given up the entire South.
Every week that goes by with out big encirclements is a win. pac man seems unavoidable, if you don't run. Little pac man will become bigger and bigger pac man if you don't run.
You're the guy who told us you had a "cold stop" on Pelton and then the very next turn or so he got a 50 or so unit encirclement including 7 cav xxx, remember? So, wondering if you understand this game so well seems, ok, and not NOT insulting. I don't want counter attacks that "go bad", we all know what that means.
Long lines favor the Sov, they have more units, the axis can't really get stretched too far or it is they who can be pocketed, yeah, come winter '42/'43, Then your tk xxx are serious threat, ala the "real" game.
xx2
Pelton gave you many opportunities to attack single units. First you say "not enough" losses in the game, now you say look at all these Axis losses. Huh?
Not against counter-attacking. M-60 seems to have given up the entire South.
Every week that goes by with out big encirclements is a win. pac man seems unavoidable, if you don't run. Little pac man will become bigger and bigger pac man if you don't run.
You're the guy who told us you had a "cold stop" on Pelton and then the very next turn or so he got a 50 or so unit encirclement including 7 cav xxx, remember? So, wondering if you understand this game so well seems, ok, and not NOT insulting. I don't want counter attacks that "go bad", we all know what that means.
Long lines favor the Sov, they have more units, the axis can't really get stretched too far or it is they who can be pocketed, yeah, come winter '42/'43, Then your tk xxx are serious threat, ala the "real" game.
xx2
RE: Soviet defensive tactics 41/42
Well read all my posts first off not.
Casualties are to low the reason for 4M man german armies and 7-8M man Soviet armies.
However in the long run and with enough effort you can slowly start to burn down the German army that is what Im saying. I know grasping long game tactics is tough for some.
Every city you lose is less men, and really from what im seeing men isnt something I have an excess of and Ive held pretty well historical territory....so losing all the south, stalingrad and saratov or penza or any of those extra cities menas less soviets/longer to rebuild a big army to take the fight back west.
As to stopping Pelton I never said he was stopped until close to winter and I stand by my statement which was he wont get alot more ground maybe closer to Stalingrad and he will be stopped.....well look at where our game is he crossed the don to the south, destroyed my weakest/hardest to reinforce front and guess what he stopped.....didnt get all of the south and didnt get stalingrad. In fact he will probably be back to Rostov by the end of winter in march/april is my guess.
The big encirclement your talking about was early in the summer, and I made a couple mistakes and im pretty sure I even pointed out what those mistakes where.....however did he kill a single corps in that encirclement...nope not a single one, I lost some infantry divisions and infantry BDEs that I purposely left in place to limit his re-supply so I could get all the corps out and launch numerous successful counterattacks on his panzer forces. However again being mobile saved my forces...every cav corps and every tank corps got out.....
As to counterattacks going bad.....its a risk you take and historical...the soviets historically lost many tank and cav corps conducting offensive operations in 1942. Historically the Soviets build 27 cav corps/mobile groups in the war....by 1943/44 they have how many left?
The issue is for "balance" the soviets basically get fewer men and fewer AP than they historically had which allows pacman to be viable german tactic. Not overly complaining about it as it makes for a good "game" but hardly historical.
As to my skill, ability to play the game and whatnot so far my results speak for themselves. You like many others were like ohhh Chaos45 is a newb Pelton will school him....well I played a different strategy than most Soviet players who have lost/are losing or only fighting for a draw at this point and im in the best positions of all of them against one of the best German players....so again think my playstyle speaks for itself in the AAR.
Nobody can play a perfect game as this game takes to long and has to many choices/variables each round. I and Pelton have both made mistakes but in general far fewer mistakes than either high command did historically lol. If anything thats where the game fails the Soviets as they were complete morons in effect for almost the first 2 years of the war and still won. If you play like a moron for the first 2 years of the war you will auto lose as the soviets in the game....as effectively the Soviets have very little cushion for major mistakes especially in 1942. If you screw up the 1941 defense you auto lose in 1941.....if you mess up to badly in 1942 you auto lose as well...would say if anything the game is giving the Germans a far greater chance of winning the war than they ever had historically but makes for a tight game against 2 players of decent skill.
As the Soviets just surviving 1941 is good enough...by 1942 you have to do more than just survive if you want to win the game. Its why the blob 4+1 lines of crap BDEs/DIV wont work. I looked at Beekeepers lines in 1.08+ the germans can pacman those lines all day long and you will lose more men/AP than you are replacing every week. Counterattack is key make the germans spend at least 3 turns preferably 4 turns to lock a pocket and liquidate it.
If I can make the Germans burn almost a month of summer per big pocket its a net win for the Soviets especially if you are beating up the panzer/motorized divisions at the same time.
As long as I have time I do plan to get another game or two going once .05 is released but dont see a point in starting anything else under .04 since many changes only affect new games. Me and Pelton are going to finish out the current .04 game because well I took a beating for 80 turns now its time for the Soviets to have some fun going forward lol.
Casualties are to low the reason for 4M man german armies and 7-8M man Soviet armies.
However in the long run and with enough effort you can slowly start to burn down the German army that is what Im saying. I know grasping long game tactics is tough for some.
Every city you lose is less men, and really from what im seeing men isnt something I have an excess of and Ive held pretty well historical territory....so losing all the south, stalingrad and saratov or penza or any of those extra cities menas less soviets/longer to rebuild a big army to take the fight back west.
As to stopping Pelton I never said he was stopped until close to winter and I stand by my statement which was he wont get alot more ground maybe closer to Stalingrad and he will be stopped.....well look at where our game is he crossed the don to the south, destroyed my weakest/hardest to reinforce front and guess what he stopped.....didnt get all of the south and didnt get stalingrad. In fact he will probably be back to Rostov by the end of winter in march/april is my guess.
The big encirclement your talking about was early in the summer, and I made a couple mistakes and im pretty sure I even pointed out what those mistakes where.....however did he kill a single corps in that encirclement...nope not a single one, I lost some infantry divisions and infantry BDEs that I purposely left in place to limit his re-supply so I could get all the corps out and launch numerous successful counterattacks on his panzer forces. However again being mobile saved my forces...every cav corps and every tank corps got out.....
As to counterattacks going bad.....its a risk you take and historical...the soviets historically lost many tank and cav corps conducting offensive operations in 1942. Historically the Soviets build 27 cav corps/mobile groups in the war....by 1943/44 they have how many left?
The issue is for "balance" the soviets basically get fewer men and fewer AP than they historically had which allows pacman to be viable german tactic. Not overly complaining about it as it makes for a good "game" but hardly historical.
As to my skill, ability to play the game and whatnot so far my results speak for themselves. You like many others were like ohhh Chaos45 is a newb Pelton will school him....well I played a different strategy than most Soviet players who have lost/are losing or only fighting for a draw at this point and im in the best positions of all of them against one of the best German players....so again think my playstyle speaks for itself in the AAR.
Nobody can play a perfect game as this game takes to long and has to many choices/variables each round. I and Pelton have both made mistakes but in general far fewer mistakes than either high command did historically lol. If anything thats where the game fails the Soviets as they were complete morons in effect for almost the first 2 years of the war and still won. If you play like a moron for the first 2 years of the war you will auto lose as the soviets in the game....as effectively the Soviets have very little cushion for major mistakes especially in 1942. If you screw up the 1941 defense you auto lose in 1941.....if you mess up to badly in 1942 you auto lose as well...would say if anything the game is giving the Germans a far greater chance of winning the war than they ever had historically but makes for a tight game against 2 players of decent skill.
As the Soviets just surviving 1941 is good enough...by 1942 you have to do more than just survive if you want to win the game. Its why the blob 4+1 lines of crap BDEs/DIV wont work. I looked at Beekeepers lines in 1.08+ the germans can pacman those lines all day long and you will lose more men/AP than you are replacing every week. Counterattack is key make the germans spend at least 3 turns preferably 4 turns to lock a pocket and liquidate it.
If I can make the Germans burn almost a month of summer per big pocket its a net win for the Soviets especially if you are beating up the panzer/motorized divisions at the same time.
As long as I have time I do plan to get another game or two going once .05 is released but dont see a point in starting anything else under .04 since many changes only affect new games. Me and Pelton are going to finish out the current .04 game because well I took a beating for 80 turns now its time for the Soviets to have some fun going forward lol.
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charlie0311
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- Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2013 11:15 am
RE: Soviet defensive tactics 41/42
Maybe you meant "read all my posts, first of all"?
Done that. the guy hasn't looked at the manpower centers, that's obvious. My remark about cold stop, then big pocket stands, look the posts up if anybody cares.
"Some" people, what was it, have difficulty grasping long term effects, or something.
"You like many others were expecting Pelton to school the newbie" Really?
Not interested and won't participate in civil war in the forums.
Little pac man is pockets with double and triple stacked seals, can't touch these with tk xxx (early 42). As the sov army gets reduced and not enough on map units to replace losses, little pac get bigger and can lead to eventual role up of whole fronts. I'm stating the obvious here.
Done that. the guy hasn't looked at the manpower centers, that's obvious. My remark about cold stop, then big pocket stands, look the posts up if anybody cares.
"Some" people, what was it, have difficulty grasping long term effects, or something.
"You like many others were expecting Pelton to school the newbie" Really?
Not interested and won't participate in civil war in the forums.
Little pac man is pockets with double and triple stacked seals, can't touch these with tk xxx (early 42). As the sov army gets reduced and not enough on map units to replace losses, little pac get bigger and can lead to eventual role up of whole fronts. I'm stating the obvious here.
RE: Soviet defensive tactics 41/42
Well hate to contradict you charlie but the soviets can break into pockets sealed with 2/3 stacked German units did it alot all summer long. An towards the end of summer into fall in the south I was smashing back 2-3 hexes of double/triple stacked German units. Its all a matter of proper concentration of Soviet forces, use of airpower, and artillery BDE/Divisions. In fact when the Germans do a single line breakthrough with stacks of 2-3 is the best time to hit them as it causes massive retreat losses and even routs more easily. Even just one massed attack that causes a 2-3 hex retreat or rout and then back away with the Cav corps is very worthwhile. Those hit and run tactics add up over the long game.
For a german encirclement to be unbreakable it needs to be about 3 hexes wide. If they only get a 1-2 hex wide encirclement soviet zocs and counterattacks can much more easily open the pocket and cause heavy retreat losses on the Germans if you know how/have the forces available to counterattack. Also love tank BDEs for running into places and putting zocs up or opening that last hex. Yes they take a pounding but have a tank BDE routed lost isnt much in the way of lost troops really for the soviets. Tanks/inf BDEs are great as sacrifice pawns to zoc up the germans and limit their supply operations.
Several airstrikes on a target hex followed up by an attack by 5+ Soviet corps backed by 2+ Brigades of Artillery proves extremely effective against most non-heavily fortified German Stacks. The airstrikes cause a ton of disruption then following that up with the additional disruption from the Artillery in the main attack usually means a win if you have done it right.
Even without Artillery BDEs in early/mid summer I was successfully pushing back 2-3 stacks of german infantry/panzer/motorized units. Guard cav corps with a couple supporting tank corps and 2-3 air strikes works wonders when done right. Then throw in a couple inf BDEs/divisions for good measure if you have the space for just a little more CV lol.
Air strikes play heavily in my counterattack style against Pelton. If you can do 2-3 decent size air strikes on Germans that arent at least dug in to lvl 2 your odds of winning an attack against them significantly increase. As keeping a pocket open can be as simple as one attack if its the right place to attack after you have moved soviet units and put correct zocs in place.
For a german encirclement to be unbreakable it needs to be about 3 hexes wide. If they only get a 1-2 hex wide encirclement soviet zocs and counterattacks can much more easily open the pocket and cause heavy retreat losses on the Germans if you know how/have the forces available to counterattack. Also love tank BDEs for running into places and putting zocs up or opening that last hex. Yes they take a pounding but have a tank BDE routed lost isnt much in the way of lost troops really for the soviets. Tanks/inf BDEs are great as sacrifice pawns to zoc up the germans and limit their supply operations.
Several airstrikes on a target hex followed up by an attack by 5+ Soviet corps backed by 2+ Brigades of Artillery proves extremely effective against most non-heavily fortified German Stacks. The airstrikes cause a ton of disruption then following that up with the additional disruption from the Artillery in the main attack usually means a win if you have done it right.
Even without Artillery BDEs in early/mid summer I was successfully pushing back 2-3 stacks of german infantry/panzer/motorized units. Guard cav corps with a couple supporting tank corps and 2-3 air strikes works wonders when done right. Then throw in a couple inf BDEs/divisions for good measure if you have the space for just a little more CV lol.
Air strikes play heavily in my counterattack style against Pelton. If you can do 2-3 decent size air strikes on Germans that arent at least dug in to lvl 2 your odds of winning an attack against them significantly increase. As keeping a pocket open can be as simple as one attack if its the right place to attack after you have moved soviet units and put correct zocs in place.
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charlie0311
- Posts: 940
- Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2013 11:15 am
RE: Soviet defensive tactics 41/42
Very well then, I stand corrected. I especially like your use of air power.
RE: Soviet defensive tactics 41/42
Air power is part of the key....At first I thought I built to many planes having around 9k aircraft, but over the term of winter 1941 through 1942 I found bombing german units for disruption to be extremely effective. In fact if you test it out I think you will see a noted difference in successful/unsuccessful attacks with correlation to bombing attacks from the red air force.
Usually I try to look over the situation at the start of the turn and determine where I can most likely successfully counterattack...then I do all of my unit bombing as that has to be your air groups first action. If you forget and launch an attack u can stop an entire air army from doing any unit bombing that turn. Believe me I forget sometimes and then a couple of my assaults will fail. With 2-3 decent size bombing raids I found my ratio of successful assaults much higher each turn.
Not to mention all that extra disruption turns to fatigue and wears down the german mobile formations as even after your attacks they are often left in contact with soviet unis for their recovery phase. Now they are high experience so losses arent as high but its just another slight wear and tear factor you put on the Germans. I bomb the max amount of times I can every turn trying to hit exposed German panzer/motorized formations as the priority.
Usually I try to look over the situation at the start of the turn and determine where I can most likely successfully counterattack...then I do all of my unit bombing as that has to be your air groups first action. If you forget and launch an attack u can stop an entire air army from doing any unit bombing that turn. Believe me I forget sometimes and then a couple of my assaults will fail. With 2-3 decent size bombing raids I found my ratio of successful assaults much higher each turn.
Not to mention all that extra disruption turns to fatigue and wears down the german mobile formations as even after your attacks they are often left in contact with soviet unis for their recovery phase. Now they are high experience so losses arent as high but its just another slight wear and tear factor you put on the Germans. I bomb the max amount of times I can every turn trying to hit exposed German panzer/motorized formations as the priority.