Ship strafing overkill

[Yaab]

Just one more thought concerning post #1.

What would happen if 60 Sams or 60 Thunderbolts were set on Naval Attack at 100 feet and strafe a CA/BB prior to a dive bomber/torpedo bomber attack? Ship AA mounts have no dedicated armour and a 20mm hit can destroy an AA mount (see post #1). Basically, with enough firing passes most 13mm-20mm-25mm-40mm mounts should be destroyed with the crews eliminated a la last Yamato battle. I know 12.7mm/0.50 cal ammo lacks punch to destroy the mounts, but would be enough to kill the crews. Plus the big AA guns would expend most of its ammunition on manoeuvrable fighters prior to bomber attack. Would love to see a sandbox test.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Yaab

My LowNav skill was just 40, I wonder what 70 LowNav skill pilots can do with those bombs.

Well, I can state that when your skills are at 80 or higher, they hit just about anything every time. If you need proof, play one of Andy's NAsty Nasty variants. [;)]
PS: Beware the Dorniers!!
[&o][&o][&o]

[Yaab]

OK, I created a modified Coral Sea scenario. In test one I put 25 x Thunderbolt unit in Port Moresby, and in test two I put a 12 x Beaufighter unit in Port Moresby. Both set to 100 feet Naval Attack. Exp 60, morale 60, LowNav skill 35. Both waiting for the Jap amphib TF to arrive.

Results

Thunderbolts - dismal. They have scored several hits with 500lb AP bombs. They attacked in 21-22 plane group thus they probaly overwhelmed the AA defences and suffered little damage from flak. As for strafing, few hits with 0.50 cal recorded (most was 20 hits on one ship). Mind you, each Thunderbolt sports 8 x 0.50 MGs. ALL hits were absorbed by ship superstructure, ship upperworks, and ship sides. NO hits were recorded on naval or AA guns ( every Jap xAK in the TF has 6 different gun mounts, the escorts have more). They attacked for 3-4 days twice a day.

Beaufighters - dismal too. They scored several hits with their 250lb AP bombs. As for strafing, they scored noticeably more hits with their 20mm guns, but for the reason unknown, on some attacks they didn't strafe at all. ALL hits were absorbed by ship superstructure, ship upperworks, and ship sides. NO hits were recorded on naval or AA guns. Only one hit in superstructure resulted in *Explosion in Superstructure" message. The aircraft received more damage from AA fire since they attacked in smaller numbers.

Conclusion: AA mount strafing died of the theory. No strafing hit was recorded on a single AA mount. All hits are absorbed by empty ship container (superstructure, upperworks, sides) resulting in a very slow accumulation of system damage. Any AA mount destruction was solely achieved by the use of bombs.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Yaab

OK, I created a modified Coral Sea scenario. In test one I put 25 x Thunderbolt unit in Port Moresby, and in test two I put a 12 x Beaufighter unit in Port Moresby. Both set to 100 feet Naval Attack. Exp 60, morale 60, LowNav skill 35. Both waiting for the Jap amphib TF to arrive.
What about strafing skill?

Results

Thunderbolts - dismal. They have scored several hits with 500lb AP bombs. They attacked in 21-22 plane group thus they probaly overwhelmed the AA defences and suffered little damage from flak. As for strafing, few hits with 0.50 cal recorded (most was 20 hits on one ship). Mind you, each Thunderbolt sports 8 x 0.50 MGs. ALL hits were absorbed by ship superstructure, ship upperworks, and ship sides. NO hits were recorded on naval or AA guns ( every Jap xAK in the TF has 6 different gun mounts, the escorts have more). They attacked for 3-4 days twice a day.

Beaufighters - dismal too. They scored several hits with their 250lb AP bombs. As for strafing, they scored noticeably more hits with their 20mm guns, but for the reason unknown, on some attacks they didn't strafe at all. ALL hits were absorbed by ship superstructure, ship upperworks, and ship sides. NO hits were recorded on naval or AA guns. Only one hit in superstructure resulted in *Explosion in Superstructure" message. The aircraft received more damage from AA fire since they attacked in smaller numbers.

Conclusion: AA mount strafing died of the theory. No strafing hit was recorded on a single AA mount. All hits are absorbed by empty ship container (superstructure, upperworks, sides) resulting in a very slow accumulation of system damage. Any AA mount destruction was solely achieved by the use of bombs.

[Yaab]

Strafing skill circa 35 for both. Remember, they were attacking xAKs unloading the troops and supplies at Moresby, which also were getting less manoeuvrable from the bomb damage in this 3-4 day period.

[witpqs]

35 is pretty bad. I would not expect better results.

[Shark7]

I know that many things are not modeled in game, however, IRL...

Strafing did more than just put holes into the ship. You have to take into account the collateral damage to WIA or KIA crew members which effects crew efficiency and degrades damage control. Also, how many real combat footage films show a small ship like a destroyer being strafed and suffering an explosion and bursting out in flames? I've seen several examples.

But more importantly, strafing would suppress return AAA fire from the ship. A gun crew isn't just the guy pulling the trigger, if the rest of the crew (loader, etc) can't do their job, the gun can't keep up its ROF.

Now all that said, in game I think its a fair modeling of all the factors when the ships get high systems damage from strafing. Especially unarmored ships that are built with wood or industrial strength steel, instead of high grade naval steel. And as someone else pointed out earlier in the thread, with enough holes below the waterline, the ship will eventually fill up with water.

[Yaab]

Yep, pretty mediocre skill levels.

OK, I was searching for a sturdy Jap fighter/FB with service rating 1 and 4 bombs, that could shower AA mounts with lots of 50-60 kg bombs. There is none. Jake float-planes carry 4 bombs, but have low durability and operate in small groups. Only Zeros and Oscars are available in big groups, but both have low durability and only two bombs.

Anyway, it seems you cannot shut down AA mounts by MGs/cannons only, you need bombs for that.

[Yaab]

One more thing.

I don't know how durability is factored into ship's progression of system damage. I guess if you have 100 Zeros firing 20mm cannons at BB Iowa class (durability 192) tower (armor 435) you can spend months awaiting visible results of your attacks.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Yaab

Yep, pretty mediocre skill levels.

OK, I was searching for a sturdy Jap fighter/FB with service rating 1 and 4 bombs, that could shower AA mounts with lots of 50-60 kg bombs. There is none. Jake float-planes carry 4 bombs, but have low durability and operate in small groups. Only Zeros and Oscars are available in big groups, but both have low durability and only two bombs.

Anyway, it seems you cannot shut down AA mounts by MGs/cannons only, you need bombs for that.

I'm not sure that conclusion is warranted, at least not yet. I don't know the code and don't recall a developer commenting, but my thoughts and observations.

• At skill level 35 maybe too little hits & effect from strafing to matter.

• During strafing against ground targets, there will sometimes be a message about AA (or flak, I forget) being suppressed. I have never seen such a message when ships are strafed.
•• Ship strafing occurs far less often, so maybe too little experience to see that message.
•• Maybe suppression of AA/flak is only in the game for land units.
•• Maybe the message is not coded for strafing ships but the effects happens silently.

• Maybe AA/flak quality from ships is related to System Damage and is degraded as System Damage increases.

• Land units have disruption/morale/fatigue, maybe AA/flak suppression is related to those; ships & crews don't have those characteristics.

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: Yaab

Yep, pretty mediocre skill levels.

OK, I was searching for a sturdy Jap fighter/FB with service rating 1 and 4 bombs, that could shower AA mounts with lots of 50-60 kg bombs. There is none. Jake float-planes carry 4 bombs, but have low durability and operate in small groups. Only Zeros and Oscars are available in big groups, but both have low durability and only two bombs.

Anyway, it seems you cannot shut down AA mounts by MGs/cannons only, you need bombs for that.

I'm not sure that conclusion is warranted, at least not yet. I don't know the code and don't recall a developer commenting, but my thoughts and observations.

• At skill level 35 maybe too little hits & effect from strafing to matter.

• During strafing against ground targets, there will sometimes be a message about AA (or flak, I forget) being suppressed. I have never seen such a message when ships are strafed.
•• Ship strafing occurs far less often, so maybe too little experience to see that message.
•• Maybe suppression of AA/flak is only in the game for land units.
•• Maybe the message is not coded for strafing ships but the effects happens silently.

• Maybe AA/flak quality from ships is related to System Damage and is degraded as System Damage increases.

• Land units have disruption/morale/fatigue, maybe AA/flak suppression is related to those; ships & crews don't have those characteristics.

Have you ever noticed that a ship that gets hit and has system damage tends to get hit much more often as the hits accumulate? I have and I think it is entirely possible that as system damage increases it acts as a negative modifier on ship performance. Which would model AAA suppression abstractly. So I agree with you, it is certainly a possibility.

[Yaab]

Too many unknowns, but your System Damage theory is interesting. Symon/JWE, are you there?

BTW, I observed one thing. In order to wear down ship's AA ammo availability one would need several groups performing the strafing or an oversized (81 planes) Jap group attacking together. When I switched sides, the Japs ships still had a good chunk of AA ammo left.

[Yaab]

Shark 7, the biggest drop in ship performance is via System Damage accumulated by bombs. I think one bomb = 100 hits by MG/cannon in terms of System Damage.

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: Yaab

Shark 7, the biggest drop in ship performance is via System Damage accumulated by bombs. I think one bomb = 100 hits by MG/cannon in terms of System Damage.

Don't disagree, but even with strafing, it seems once you get that first hit, the target ship turns into a bullet magnet. And that starts adding up. Also, am I mistaken that a strafing 'hit' really only does system damage if it is also accompanied with a penetration or critical hit message? The simple 'X ship hit by 20mm Shell', do they actually do any damage at all?

And honestly, I'd rather send dive or torpedo bombers to get the job done right. [;)] But this discussion is about strafing attacks. [:)]

[Yaab]

I rechecked the Beaufighter unit and the strafing skill for the whole group was 65.


And now the strafing details:

Day 1:

AM: 12 Beaus attacked, recorded 12 x 20mm shell hits, one hit resulted in message *Severe damage to control parties*

PM: 11 Beaus attacked, no strafing runs, only bombing attacks

Day 2:

AM: no flights

PM: 11 Beaus attacked, recorded just 6 x 20mm hits and 1 x Vickers hit, one shell hit resulted in message *Severe damage to control parties*

Day 3:

AM: no flights

PM: 9 Beaus attacked, bombing run, only one Vickers hit recorded

Day 4:

AM: 9 Beaus attacked, no strafing run, just bomb hits

PM: 9 Beaus attacked, no strafing run, just bomb hits

Day 5:

Port Moresby falls to Japs, end of test.
------------------------------------------------------

CONCLUSION: In the test, Beaufighters scored several hits with 250lb AP bombs. I took note of the messages accompanying the bomb hits, but sadly no AA mount were hits. The TF itself was probably 10-12 ships strong and on each day Beaus faced strong AA fire (lots of flak bursts in combat animations). LowNav skill was 35 but it was enough for the unwieldy xAKs that were unloading troops and supplies (I guess, this means the ships do not maneuver at all in such situation).

Strafing was a dismal failure. 12 Beaus with 4 x CL 20mm cannon each = 48 barrels, and they only score max 12 hits on anchored targets? I am perplexed why the Zeros in post#1 did so much better against the PTs. I guess it has something to do with either swamping the AA defenses or the quality of AA itself (bigger AA guns disrupt targeting to dismal levels). The Zeroes and Beaus pilots had almost identical skills, with the Japs having more exp (about 70).

Maybe you get more firing passes if you have different weapon systems (Zero has 7.7mm MG, 20mm cannon and 60kg bombs)? If you have 12 x .303 MGs as all your armament you get one pass and that is all. That would explain the Beaus inefficiency.

One more thought - maybe targeting routine assigns cannons to targeting small craft/small escort ships ( manual p.245) and bomb runs to all other ships?

[Yaab]

Redid the test. Same scenario, same unit. This time the Beaus were set to Naval Attack at 1000 feet.


And now the strafing details:

Day 1:

AM: 12 Beaus attacked, recorded 10 shell hits and 2 bomb hits. One shell hit resulted in message * Severe engine damage*. All Beaus strafed. Weather: Moderate rain.

PM: 12 Beaus attacked, recorded 9 shell hits and 2 bomb hits. All strafed. Weather: Moderate rain.

Day 2:

AM: 12 Beaus attacked, recorded 3 shell hits. 4 Beaus did not strafe. Weather: Light cloud

PM: 11 Beaus attacked, recorded 8 shell hits and 2 bomb hits. All strafed. Weather: Partial cloud.

Day 3:

AM: 11 Beaus attacked,recorded 2 shell hits and 1 bomb hit. All strafed. Weather: heavy rain.

PM: 9 Beaus attacked, recorded 2 shell hits. Weather: Clear sky

Day 4:

AM: 11 Beaus attacked, recorded 2 shell hist and 1 bomb hit. The bomb hit destroyed 13.2mm AA mount on x AK. Weather; thunderstorms. All strafed.

PM: 11 Beaus attacked, recorded 7 shell hits and 1 bomb hit. All strafed. Weather: Heavy rain

Day 5:

Port Moresby falls, end of test.


CONCLUSION:

When set to 1000 feet, the Beaus behaved more consistently. Almost all of them strafed. They scored few shell hits on average, but several strafing run were disrupted at start by messages saying *Beaufighter damaged by flak*. Flak was consistent throughout the test as only one 13.2mm mount was destroyed on the Jap ships. It seems to me that when 100 feet Naval Attack is selected the Beaufighters perform mast-height attack and forgo strafing, while at 1000 feet they do both. The run is initiated by strafing and followed by bomb release.

[geofflambert]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

Fletcher-class DD= armored

Pretty much every other DD= not-armored

Have people ever seen a 20mm projectile? One will ruin your whole day.

If P-47s can make locamotives explode with .50 cals, imagine what 20mm shells would do.

[GetAssista]

ORIGINAL: geofflambert
If P-47s can make locamotives explode with .50 cals, imagine what 20mm shells would do.

Locomotives have internal pressure waiting to be released. Even .30 will do the job assuming they penetrate the boiler. 20mm are more destructive since they burst on anything while .50 just pierce. E.g. 20mm slugs would be not as superior

[spence]

IRL, or at least as described in "A Glorious Way To Die" (I think that is the name of the book), repeated strafing runs by F6Fs slaughtered the AAA crews to such an extent that blood literally cascaded downward from deck to deck on HIJMS Yamato when she was attacked on her final mission. The book was written by that ship's Asst Damage Control Assistant (a LTJG IIRC and also the senior surviving officer) who commented on construction foibles with that class specifically stating that the AAA emplacements were much too concentrated physically. As the USN had almost 6 months to analyze the data regarding their attacks on HIJMS Musashi they very likely did recognize this particular foible of the class. They certainly recognized that many of their torpedo hits on Musashi merely counterflooded the list created by hits on the opposite side. The ones who sank the ship were the TBFs but the F6Fs paved the way with their strafing (flak suppression).

[zuluhour]

useful info. I would have assumed the opposite.