Today's Japanese R&D lesson

This new stand alone release based on the legendary War in the Pacific from 2 by 3 Games adds significant improvements and changes to enhance game play, improve realism, and increase historical accuracy. With dozens of new features, new art, and engine improvements, War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition brings you the most realistic and immersive WWII Pacific Theater wargame ever!

Moderators: wdolson, MOD_War-in-the-Pacific-Admirals-Edition

Numdydar
Posts: 3283
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2004 9:56 pm

Today's Japanese R&D lesson

Post by Numdydar »

I created this thread as a jpg so to get all the screenshots together. So we will see if this works or not [:)] Ok did not work so plan B

Here is a R&D lesson for all JFB wanta be¡¦s ƒº
On 4/30/1944 I had two Oscar IIIa factories that were at 99% accelerated to May 1944 from June ¡¥44. So basically as soon as the turn ran to May 1st, these two factories would now be in production. All my Updg, Repair, and Prod were all set to ¡¥Yes¡¦ in the RD Air screen.
As shown below both the factories switched to production as we are under the ¡¥Air¡¦ factory screen. Notice that they are in Blue which means they are able to switch back to R&D factories.



Image
Attachments
RD1.jpg
RD1.jpg (61.93 KiB) Viewed 369 times
Numdydar
Posts: 3283
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2004 9:56 pm

RE: Today's Japanese R&D lesson

Post by Numdydar »

In this screen shot, I selected one of the factories and already switched it back to R&D. Which just left the one shown below still in production. We are still in the ‘Air’ factory screen.



Image
Attachments
RD2.jpg
RD2.jpg (57.72 KiB) Viewed 367 times
Numdydar
Posts: 3283
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2004 9:56 pm

RE: Today's Japanese R&D lesson

Post by Numdydar »

Now we are in the ‘RD Air’ screen shown below. Both of the Oscar IIIa factories are now Oscar IV R&D factories and can now help accelerate these planes. Notice that the factories suffered NO damage since the Oscar IV is the next plane in the Oscar series upgrade line.

There was no need for me to do anything with the Updg, Repair, and Prod switches at all prior to the factories switching under the ‘RD Air’ screen prior to the factories converting. The way the game now works allowed me to get my acceleration on the Oscar IIIa’s a month earlier AND was able to use these factories to start accelerating the Oscar IV plane.
Just thought everyone would like to know how the game currently actually works in this regard versus old and outdated material.



Image
Attachments
RD3.jpg
RD3.jpg (47.14 KiB) Viewed 367 times
GetAssista
Posts: 2836
Joined: Sat Sep 19, 2009 6:13 am

RE: Today's Japanese R&D lesson

Post by GetAssista »

Why don't you have R&D factories at 30? Would not it be be a bad example for the students? )
Also, with realistic R&D it is adviceable to set Prod flags to "No" on the factories you plan to switch to another R&D. Else on completing research they might switch to production factories by themselves and there will be no turning back. I fubar-ed my entire A6M research set like this once.
Numdydar
Posts: 3283
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2004 9:56 pm

RE: Today's Japanese R&D lesson

Post by Numdydar »

That was the point of this thread. To point out you do not need to worry if R&D factories switch to production or not. As you can easily turn them back to R&D like my example shows.

Any R&D factories in blue mean they are about to become production factories in the next month like what happened with my Oscar IIIa's. So on the first turn of the month, see if you have any production factories in blue. If you do, again just switch them back like I did. Now if you are not paying attention ... That is a different issue [:D]
GetAssista
Posts: 2836
Joined: Sat Sep 19, 2009 6:13 am

RE: Today's Japanese R&D lesson

Post by GetAssista »

Now if you are not paying attention ... That is a different issue
:D
That was exactly the issue :D So many things to pay attention to in this game..
Alpha77
Posts: 2173
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2010 7:38 am

RE: Today's Japanese R&D lesson

Post by Alpha77 »

ORIGINAL: GetAssista
Now if you are not paying attention ... That is a different issue
:D
That was exactly the issue :D So many things to pay attention to in this game..

Yup, and this method with using upgrade paths is the only realistic possibility to get planes really 2-3 months earlier..

Now you can eg. switch from Zero M3 to M3a to M5 in a single turn without facs further damages. [;)] In case of this one be careful, the M2 does NOT upgrade to M3 [:-]
GetAssista
Posts: 2836
Joined: Sat Sep 19, 2009 6:13 am

RE: Today's Japanese R&D lesson

Post by GetAssista »

ORIGINAL: Alpha77
Yup, and this method with using upgrade paths is the only realistic possibility to get planes really 2-3 months earlier..
How about 1+ year early! Not that hard if you are willing to expend supply and concentrate your R&D on a few models (mostly fighters).

Oh, and if R&D is not set to Realistic one can really run wild, along e.g. Oscar path
Alpha77
Posts: 2173
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2010 7:38 am

RE: Today's Japanese R&D lesson

Post by Alpha77 »

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

How about 1+ year early! Not that hard if you are willing to expend supply and concentrate your R&D on a few models (mostly fighters).

Yup if you set up 10 facs a 30 for a single model. I guess I have 5 or 6 each for most planes. The remainder to fill the space 1-3 for not so important ones...Got the Tojo1 2 weeks earlier already [:'(]

Has someone made the experiment already to only research the 46 jet fighter ? Would be interesting [;)]
GetAssista
Posts: 2836
Joined: Sat Sep 19, 2009 6:13 am

RE: Today's Japanese R&D lesson

Post by GetAssista »

ORIGINAL: Alpha77
Has someone made the experiment already to only research the 46 jet fighter ? Would be interesting [;)]
It would be vastly suboptimal because of no upgrade chain and the way R&D factories repair - slow when date is far away.
Like, what's the point of getting those factories repaired only in 1944? You could've used them for all the planes inbetween and still get them on Karyu later and not be very far behind
Numdydar
Posts: 3283
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2004 9:56 pm

RE: Today's Japanese R&D lesson

Post by Numdydar »

Correct. The repair chance for any R&D factory for any plane 2+ years ahead of the game date is almost non-existent. Now if feel you have the resources as Japan to waste this way ... [:)]
Alpha77
Posts: 2173
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2010 7:38 am

RE: Today's Japanese R&D lesson

Post by Alpha77 »

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

Correct. The repair chance for any R&D factory for any plane 2+ years ahead of the game date is almost non-existent. Now if feel you have the resources as Japan to waste this way ... [:)]

Correct. But as a funny experiment, a dashing and experienced IJ player should do it.....[:D]
Numdydar
Posts: 3283
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2004 9:56 pm

RE: Today's Japanese R&D lesson

Post by Numdydar »

Uh no. [:)]

I am in May '44 and I started the game with 2 unrepaired Kikka R&D factories. Now this factory is at 1(1) after 2.5 years of play. Since the historical date for this plane is 1/46, I am now under the two year mark so I should see the other factory repair soon. At this point I could expand the factories with the reasonable expectation of then being fully repaired by the end of '44.

If I did that and the factories did repair, then at best, I could get the Kikka 3 months early, say Oct, '45. Whoopeee [:'(] But just because I get the plane early does not mean a whole lot since to get enough to actually fill out squadrons requires at least one month of production. Depending on the investment made in planes/engines for it. So now we are looking at Nov '45 to actually have a few squadrons ready to actually fly the things.

So basically a total waste of time for Japan's very limited resources to be used on. Which is why no one does acceleration with '45/46 plane types that are one offs. I.E. have no prior model to upgrade from like the Oscar, Zero, etc. lines.

And for those that say well if you had expanded the R&D factories at the beginning ... I actually did that with another model that had a date of 6/45. I made these factories 0(31) at the game's start. So far the factories are STILL 0(31) [:@]. Again in May '44 so only a year away from the historical date. So the Kikka's R&D factories are actually doing better thanks to RND chances [:)]

While AFBs think Japan's R&D system in the game is too powerful, you really need to understand its limitations on what it can do. PDU Off makes it even worse. For certain lines, Japan can leverage things (especially with PDU On) to get a very few types much earlier. But the vast majority of Japan's planes will appear a lot closer to historical dates than these few.

So no Kikka's in '44, much less '43, for JFBs [:(]
User avatar
Lokasenna
Posts: 9304
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2012 3:57 am
Location: Iowan in MD/DC

RE: Today's Japanese R&D lesson

Post by Lokasenna »

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

Correct. The repair chance for any R&D factory for any plane 2+ years ahead of the game date is almost non-existent. Now if feel you have the resources as Japan to waste this way ... [:)]

Correct. But as a funny experiment, a dashing and experienced IJ player should do it.....[:D]

It's not really a waste if you're planning ahead. What is wasteful is speeding through lots of R&D when you don't need to, and burning thousands of supplies switching factories between lines as you complete them.
User avatar
Lowpe
Posts: 24582
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2013 2:25 pm

RE: Today's Japanese R&D lesson

Post by Lowpe »

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

And for those that say well if you had expanded the R&D factories at the beginning ... I actually did that with another model that had a date of 6/45. I made these factories 0(31) at the game's start. So far the factories are STILL 0(31) [:@]. Again in May '44 so only a year away from the historical date. So the Kikka's R&D factories are actually doing better thanks to RND chances [:)]


Hmm., check out my link and post 263 (No Jocke).

tm.asp?m=3916032&mpage=9
Numdydar
Posts: 3283
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2004 9:56 pm

RE: Today's Japanese R&D lesson

Post by Numdydar »

Well you still have a long way to go to get all those factories repaired before a single R&D point is produced. So in 4 months you have repaired ~ 10%. Not what I would call a good track record [:)] Given that rate it will take you 3.5 years to get them fully repaired. So you may get them 3-4 months early as I said earlier. Still not worth it imho as I will bet you that the game will be well over before a single one is produced [:)]. But who knows. Maybe your RND generator is better than mine [:)]

My R&D factory of 2 [:D] for these planes is fully repaired and I am 28% towards a month accel. [:(] So I expect that they fully repaired around 4-5 months ago. About the time when I got within the two year window. I still have a few other types factories that are still completely unrepaired too though.
Alpha77
Posts: 2173
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2010 7:38 am

RE: Today's Japanese R&D lesson

Post by Alpha77 »

ORIGINAL: Numdydar


So no Kikka's in '44, much less '43, for JFBs [:(]

Well who knows how good they really are....if they get shot down by Allied sweeps on landings and take off, like most Me262 in Europe were, their potential can not be exploited anyway [:(]

I just got 1 point of a 3/45 plane factory repaired [:D]
User avatar
Barb
Posts: 2503
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 7:17 am
Location: Bratislava, Slovakia

RE: Today's Japanese R&D lesson

Post by Barb »

Actually the best research lines for airplanes are: Zero, Oscar and Tony
Image
User avatar
Lowpe
Posts: 24582
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2013 2:25 pm

RE: Today's Japanese R&D lesson

Post by Lowpe »

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

Well you still have a long way to go to get all those factories repaired before a single R&D point is produced. So in 4 months you have repaired ~ 10%. Not what I would call a good track record [:)] Given that rate it will take you 3.5 years to get them fully repaired. So you may get them 3-4 months early as I said earlier. Still not worth it imho as I will bet you that the game will be well over before a single one is produced [:)]. But who knows. Maybe your RND generator is better than mine [:)]

My R&D factory of 2 [:D] for these planes is fully repaired and I am 28% towards a month accel. [:(] So I expect that they fully repaired around 4-5 months ago. About the time when I got within the two year window. I still have a few other types factories that are still completely unrepaired too though.

Obvert in his game against Jocke, r&d the Ki95 recon plane with one size 30 factory. He go the plane and was flying it June 23, 1945. Four months early. Don't you think if he would have had two size thirty factories plus engine bonus he might not have gotten the plane significantly earlier.

Spidery wrote a simple program that would estimate plane arrivals and I really can't share data from his AAR since he might come back, but it argues for a select late war fighter research program.


GetAssista
Posts: 2836
Joined: Sat Sep 19, 2009 6:13 am

RE: Today's Japanese R&D lesson

Post by GetAssista »

ORIGINAL: Lowpe
Spidery wrote a simple program that would estimate plane arrivals and I really can't share data from his AAR since he might come back, but it argues for a select late war fighter research program.
It's all about the distribution of R&D. Both extremes (concentrating on early, and concentrating on late planes) are wrong because of diminishing returns you get from each additional R&D factory in the same model of plane. You get huge boost when getting from 0 to 1, or from 1 to 2 factories researching. But adding more and more factories you are getting less and less acceleration (in terms of time bonus)

i made some illustrative calculations:
E.g. assume you started the game, decided to allocate say 10 factories to your navy fighter research, and ponder A6M5 vs A7M2 allocation. Assume Rufe->A6M5 path, bypassing M3s for simplicity. Key thing is that when A6M5 arrives you would switch all research to A7M2.
1. A6M5 factories repair (as Rufes) in 3/42 and start researching A6M5 with upgrade chain switch.
2. When do Sam factories repair? Luckily, Ki-95 has same arrival date as Sam at 10/45, so we can assume all A7M2 factories fully repair at Obvert's date, which is around 5/44 (no engine bonus and 1 factory, 100 days per advancement, 4 advancements made until arrival at 6/45, 5/44 + 100*4 ~ 6/45 sounds about right).
3. What about engine bonuses? Ha-35 bonus is almost always there, highly sought for, and we can safely assume it works for the duration of A6M5 research. Ha-43 is tricky with arrival date at 9/45, so it would be a strain to get bonus for Sam research in 1944. Assume no bonus for all duration for simplicity.
4. Now what are the dates of arrival for both planes given all research done? Some guesses here about the timing of A6M5 switched to A7M2 repair but nothing wild:

Code: Select all

 A6M5  A6M5    A7M2  switched fac   A7M2 w/o switch A7M2 with switch
 fac   arrival fac   repair at?     arrival         arrival
 --------------------------------------------------------------------
  0     8/43   10    -              10/44        =  10/44
  1     2/43    9    late 44 nogood 10/44        =  10/44         
  5     8/42    5    ~10/44         12/44           11/44
  9     6/42    1    ~9/44           6/45           12/44          
 10     6/42    0    ~9/44          10/45            1/45
You trade earlier A6M5 vs earlier A7M2 as expected, but giving some R&D to each model in the beginning (like 5/5) gives you much bigger combined time advancement. In the end it all depends on how you value different planes early availability.
Supply cost is also different but I assumed 100k supplies is manageable
Engine bonus presence/absence tilts things somewhat but does not change fundamentals

Edit: there is luck involved here and I might've unerestimated its importance. When R&D repair is lucky for you, you can get couple fully repaired factories earlier and this is not a small matter as with engine bonus 1 advancement a month not only gets research done but also makes arrival date closer and allows other factories to repair faster. So quantity of R&D factories is a quality of it's own )
Post Reply

Return to “War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition”