Ship strafing overkill

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: Yaab

OK, I created a modified Coral Sea scenario. In test one I put 25 x Thunderbolt unit in Port Moresby, and in test two I put a 12 x Beaufighter unit in Port Moresby. Both set to 100 feet Naval Attack. Exp 60, morale 60, LowNav skill 35. Both waiting for the Jap amphib TF to arrive.

Results

Thunderbolts - dismal. They have scored several hits with 500lb AP bombs. They attacked in 21-22 plane group thus they probaly overwhelmed the AA defences and suffered little damage from flak. As for strafing, few hits with 0.50 cal recorded (most was 20 hits on one ship). Mind you, each Thunderbolt sports 8 x 0.50 MGs. ALL hits were absorbed by ship superstructure, ship upperworks, and ship sides. NO hits were recorded on naval or AA guns ( every Jap xAK in the TF has 6 different gun mounts, the escorts have more). They attacked for 3-4 days twice a day.

Beaufighters - dismal too. They scored several hits with their 250lb AP bombs. As for strafing, they scored noticeably more hits with their 20mm guns, but for the reason unknown, on some attacks they didn't strafe at all. ALL hits were absorbed by ship superstructure, ship upperworks, and ship sides. NO hits were recorded on naval or AA guns. Only one hit in superstructure resulted in *Explosion in Superstructure" message. The aircraft received more damage from AA fire since they attacked in smaller numbers.

Conclusion: AA mount strafing died of the theory. No strafing hit was recorded on a single AA mount. All hits are absorbed by empty ship container (superstructure, upperworks, sides) resulting in a very slow accumulation of system damage. Any AA mount destruction was solely achieved by the use of bombs.

Only attack bombers suppress flak in the game. Fighters and fighter bombers do not. Hits are mostly hull or superstructure so you would not expect fighters and fighter bombers to have any effect on AA. In fact, vs any decently armed warship sending them in at 100 feet is deadly. Attack bombers suppress flax and reduce it but I do not note them knocking out AA mounts, so guess it is an abstraction. I basically don't use fighters much to attack shipping but the later Allied planes with 1,000 pound bombs are a different story and very deadly attacking ships in port. The Beaufighter is the worst of them all. Vs any decent ship the 20mm have very little effect and the 250 bombs are useless. Better to not use them. Too bad because they were actually quite good in this role. Years ago I did a lot of testing on strafing. I determined that in game terms it is pretty much a useless skill.

[Lokasenna]

I've had B-25 attack versions kill AA mounts.

[spence]

Only attack bombers suppress flak in the game.

So only the delusional IJ high command point of view is valid in the game. As I mentioned it was a Japanese author who described the slaughter of the AAA crews.
Even the Japanese film about Yamatos's last sortie depicted the slaughter caused by the F6F's strafing attacks. A 3/8" mild steel gun tub provides very little protection from a .50 cal AP slug.

The delusional IJ high command sent that ship and its 3000 man crew on that one way mission in the first place - good call for the lunatic fringe.

[Yaab]

I am looking for a pattern for successful strafing attacks.

Look what happened when two 45 Zero units joined forces in a coordinated attack against HK ships.


AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Dec 07, 41

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Hong Kong at 77,61

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 36 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 11 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 90
B5M1 Mabel x 2

No Japanese losses

Allied Ships
DD Scout, Shell hits 26, Bomb hits 1, on fire
MTB 11, Shell hits 19
DD Thanet, Shell hits 45, Bomb hits 1, heavy damage
MTB 10, Shell hits 7, Bomb hits 1, and is sunk
MTB 26, Shell hits 8
MTB 9
MTB 27, Shell hits 6
MTB 7, Shell hits 47, heavy damage

Aircraft Attacking:
45 x A6M2 Zero bombing from 100 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 60 kg GP Bomb
45 x A6M2 Zero bombing from 100 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 60 kg GP Bomb
2 x B5M1 Mabel bombing from 100 feet *
Naval Attack: 2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb


A total of 180 20mm barrels and 158 shell hits! It is as if you get more bang from a cannon in F position than a cannon in CL position, even if the former is less accurate.


But the attack is followed by a dismal afternoon strike.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Hong Kong at 77,61

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid spotted at 5 NM, estimated altitude 7,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 1 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 45

No Japanese losses

Allied Ships
MTB 27, Shell hits 7
MTB 26, Shell hits 5
MTB 7, Shell hits 2, heavy damage
MTB 9
MTB 12, Shell hits 3
MTB 11

Aircraft Attacking:
45 x A6M2 Zero bombing from 100 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 60 kg GP Bomb

Why so ineffective this time? [8|]

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: Yaab

I am looking for a pattern for successful strafing attacks.

Look what happened when two 45 Zero units joined forces in a coordinated attack against HK ships.


AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Dec 07, 41

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Hong Kong at 77,61

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 36 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 11 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 90
B5M1 Mabel x 2

No Japanese losses

Allied Ships
DD Scout, Shell hits 26, Bomb hits 1, on fire
MTB 11, Shell hits 19
DD Thanet, Shell hits 45, Bomb hits 1, heavy damage
MTB 10, Shell hits 7, Bomb hits 1, and is sunk
MTB 26, Shell hits 8
MTB 9
MTB 27, Shell hits 6
MTB 7, Shell hits 47, heavy damage

Aircraft Attacking:
45 x A6M2 Zero bombing from 100 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 60 kg GP Bomb
45 x A6M2 Zero bombing from 100 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 60 kg GP Bomb
2 x B5M1 Mabel bombing from 100 feet *
Naval Attack: 2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb


A total of 180 20mm barrels and 158 shell hits! It is as if you get more bang from a cannon in F position than a cannon in CL position, even if the former is less accurate.


But the attack is followed by a dismal afternoon strike.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Hong Kong at 77,61

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid spotted at 5 NM, estimated altitude 7,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 1 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 45

No Japanese losses

Allied Ships
MTB 27, Shell hits 7
MTB 26, Shell hits 5
MTB 7, Shell hits 2, heavy damage
MTB 9
MTB 12, Shell hits 3
MTB 11

Aircraft Attacking:
45 x A6M2 Zero bombing from 100 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 60 kg GP Bomb

Why so ineffective this time? [8|]

It is about what you would expect from 100 planes strafing two old DDs and a bunch of motor launches. They would have very little AA to speak of and be easily shot up by 20 mm fire and light bombs. Now set up four modern American light cruisers with four Fletcher DDs and try the same experiment.

[Yaab]

How would you account for great differences in the effectiveness of attacks above? Same weather, pilots, ships, and the second attack is a joke, even if one takes into account the reduced number of the attacking aircraft. Can AI disband a TF in the morning phase and recreate in the afternoon phase to reduce the DL of PTs? Maybe the pilots gained 10 fatigue point from the AM attack and it is the fatigue that matters most? Wish I knew.

[Shark7]

This may be a dumb question, but...

Has anyone tried to run this test with planes that have 0 load capacity and there for can't carry any ordnance? Might get a better idea of exactly what is going on if the test could eliminate all possible non-gun hits.

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: Yaab

How would you account for great differences in the effectiveness of attacks above? Same weather, pilots, ships, and the second attack is a joke, even if one takes into account the reduced number of the attacking aircraft. Can AI disband a TF in the morning phase and recreate in the afternoon phase to reduce the DL of PTs? Maybe the pilots gained 10 fatigue point from the AM attack and it is the fatigue that matters most? Wish I knew.

No two attacks are the same. There are so many random variables that can change the results. If it was the same attacking planes then yes, fatigue was probably a factor but there can be many more factors.

If you are running a test then you really need to repeat the test a whole lot of times. I did a lot of strafing testing years ago and was running the tests in groups of twenty. Wish I had kept my results but if you search the forum you might find them....

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Shark7

This may be a dumb question, but...

Has anyone tried to run this test with planes that have 0 load capacity and there for can't carry any ordnance? Might get a better idea of exactly what is going on if the test could eliminate all possible non-gun hits.

Any fighter that has no ordnance defined should fit the bill, like the early P-40 models.

[Yaab]

I did several tests today. All tests were conducted with modified fighter aircraft ( I edited out the bombs), so only MG and cannons hit ships.

Basically strafing works, but in a strange way.

First, you cannot count on strafing to suppress or destroy AA mounts - EVER. No matter if your fighters unload 12 x 0303MGs or six 20mm cannons on a ship, the chance to hit an AA mount is like 1:100. The chance to actually damage or destroy an AA mount is like 1:1000. 99% of hits are soaked by upperworks/superstructure/ship side container. Solution: ALWAYS use bombs for AA destruction.

Second, bring bigger guns. If the ship has 12.7cm-10cm-8cm-25mm AA/DP guns it will disrupt your targeting to dismal levels, no matter how experienced or skilled your pilots are. But if the ship has 100 x 13.2mm guns then you are golden, provided you strafe her with 20mm cannons. So PTs, MTBs, LBs - anything that has no gun bigger than 13.2mm is ripe for strafing. The ships will accumulate system damage from strafing, albeit slowly, but if you are lucky, a *Severe damage to control parties* message will mean fires have started. In a test, I have registered 49 shell hits with 20mm shells on an big xAK which resulted in 54 sys damage, 6 engine and 20 fires.

Third, attack ships that carry troops. In one of the tests, a group of 12 Hurricanes attacked an xAK bound for Port Moresby. The Hurries scored only 17 hits with their 0303 MGs, but disabled 4 combat squads, DESTROYED 4 non-combat squads, disabled 4 non-combat squad and DESTROYED one gun. Thus, you can unleash hell on barges carrying troops even with the lousiest fighters. Of course, since troops unload faster than supplies/equipment, then you would need a long range strafer like a Beau to find the target well away from its destination, before it unloads the soldiers. Very tricky.

Fourth, anybody can be a strafer. If you set dive bombers/torpedo bombers at 1000 feet they will not strafe but bomb. If you set them at 100 feet, they will strafe and bomb.

So, strafing has its uses provided you attack small craft/small escort ship which have lousy AA weapons. For anything else bring bombs. It will save you LOTS of time and frustration.

[Yaab]

On more thing. If a bomber drops a bomb and misses, you see a splash in the combat animation. However , if a pure strafer strafes and misses, you get no visual cue about it in the combat animation. So there are several strafing runs when 10 aircraft strafe and score no hits, and you keeps asking yourself where the bullets go. There is no mini-splash for a 20mm round that went astray. Annoying.

[geofflambert]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

ORIGINAL: Yaab

Speaking of magazine explosion, do small craft like PT actually have any interior compartments represented in the game? They were shot multiple time with 20mm cannons and nothing, they just accumulate system damage. With them it is either obliteration by an air bomb or ship shell, or a numbing shooting contest.

Can ammo explode on a PT? A 20mm could at least hit a torpedo on a PT or something.

Water tight? No. PT's have "bulkheads" made of plywood. About as durable as a wall in your wooden house.

Yeahbut, it was MAHOGANY plywood! [:)]

I recently read that Mr. Higgins of Higgins boat fame, saw what was coming and in 1939 bought up the entire years production of Philipine luaun, eventually making his boats out of that.

[Rusty1961]

Not over-kill.

[Yaab]

ORIGINAL: Yaab

Third, attack ships that carry troops. In one of the tests, a group of 12 Hurricanes attacked an xAK bound for Port Moresby. The Hurries scored only 17 hits with their 0303 MGs, but disabled 4 combat squads, DESTROYED 4 non-combat squads, disabled 4 non-combat squad and DESTROYED one gun. Thus, you can unleash hell on barges carrying troops even with the lousiest fighters. Of course, since troops unload faster than supplies/equipment, then you would need a long range strafer like a Beau to find the target well away from its destination, before it unloads the soldiers. Very tricky.

I am coming to believe that whenever the game reports a 7.7mm, .303 or 12.7mm AAMG hit on ship, be it from aircraft or another ship, the hit does not represent a single bullet hit, but rather a spray of bullets. Otherwise, how would you explain the above?