The Gamiest Game in Town - EL (J) vs Rio Bravo (A)

[PaxMondo]

There are several AAR's on India ... Greyjoy went in in one of his, obvert did. rader did against greyjoy. usually players choose Oz or India. both have advantages, both pitfalls.

[PaxMondo]

Aircraft:

The fact you think you have been conservative to this point is not a bad thing. Most players go too wild IMO, too early.

This game is PDU ON and Realistic R&D ON.
What these means carefully and focus.
Have a very clear plan.

PDU ON means that you don't have to worry/wait until 1945 to upgrade those Nate groups, you can move them earlier and to different models. There are some limits though, so tracker is your friend. Particularly for Fighters, you want to figure out your model progression for each group. The fewer models the better as that means more focused research which means you get the models earlier.

Model selection: Key here is to realize that most late war fighter models are defensive. While you have the initiative you need offensive fighters. Difference? Range. You cannot be on the offensive with a range 5 fighter. You need range 10 (Helen) minimum, better more for the Netties. Short list of fighter that meet that and they are mostly unarmored, low DUR, and slow. That means high losses, so more groups have to be assigned training. Right?

Now that you have a plan for your model progression for each group, you can sum those all up and see what you need to build. Now take your RnD factories and assign to the models, you can now see WHEN you will get those models into production. Fiddle/adjust until you like the timing. It won't be perfect because of course you want all of them NOW. [:D]

Now that fighters are done, do the same with all the other types (LB's, TB, Recon, Patrol, etc.) Most of the rest are kinds no brainers, except for timing. Timing is handled by how many R&D factories you apply and since that is finite, some models just have to wait until they naturally appear. On a lot of models you will have NO RnD because you don't have enough. I never put less than 3x30 because less IMO is a waste. 3x30 roughly will advance you one month each month. with engine bonus, 2 months each month. that is progress. Anything else isn't.

Finally, you need to match up engines to your AC. Again, generally not that tough, but you do need to do it. I tend to overbuild engines a bit because there are so few factories, late war you can more easily lose all production on a model so a stockpile is a good thing.

Again, use here what you see fit. Just one players perspective and opinion.


Start building and shifting factories to your plan. Take at least one month to do this, watch your supply carefully. It will likely take longer.

[PaxMondo]

Last thoughts about defensive vs offensive. My best example is the Tojo. Don't get me wrong, I do build it, but it is clearly a defensive fighter and a good one. But in 42/43, I am not focused on defense. I need offense. Frank OTOH is still offensive as with DT it can make 10 hex. The Frank "B" model is a great offensive model at 11/13 if you can get it early enough. Tough choice though because to do it you have to commit a huge portion of your RnD ... Oscar IV of course is offensive ... and cheap to RnD ...choices. Key for me though is to focus. I don't think there are any bad plans, there are some that because of how the game actually plays out may not have been optimal, but any plan is better than no plan. Just me though ... and Mike. [;)]

[Mike Solli]

Hi there! I just saw this AAR and am going to follow closely. Should be interesting!

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: el lobo

obvert, I agree with no HI or LI expansion in the DEA and will study the areas you suggested. Also agree with infrastructure building and will look closely at that also.

First, let me say that I love obvert's input and advice. I've used it many times. But, I'd like to give a different argument for HI expansion on Java.

If you look at the HI, oil and refineries in Java, you'll see that there is a surplus of oil vs. refineries and HI is low. If you increase the refineries to match the oil output, you'll increase fuel and supply production and simplify movement out of Java. No longer do you have to move oil out, just fuel. Also, if you increase HI and ship resources from all the surrounding small resource producing bases to Java, you can save fuel there too. It's too fuel intensive to move those resources to the Home Islands. Just move them to Java and they'll get used by the HI there. There will still be excess fuel that can be either shipped out or used to support a fleet in the area. There will also be excess supply there that can be used in the area.

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: el lobo

Can someone please tell me what is happening at Muri?

The mouse-over on Dec 7, 1941 shows Oil and Refinery at 150 (150). All of the other Oil and Refineries show their number and a zero on mouse-over, xxx (0), except Brunei next door which also has a number in parenthesis.

On Dec 19,1941 is shows 151 (150) for Oil and Refinery. Is Muri building or is this FOW?

I was about to pull the trigger on Muri but if it is building at his expense I will let it build-out before I take it.

Thanks.

Not sure if someone will explain this, so disregard if they already have. Miri's oilfield starts at 150(150), which means that half of the oilfield is damaged. It'll need 150k supply to repair (and take 5 months), but it's definitely worth it. Same with Brunei, but the number is far lower at 10(10).

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: el lobo


As mentioned above, I am working on pilot training and I have a couple of questions.

What is a reasonable criteria in respect to the number or percentage of pilots you should have in training at any one time?

I have read that you should have one in three or four of your air groups training. For this to be a logical criteria you must assume that all groups are the same size and therefore you would have twenty-five to thirty-three percent of your pilots in training.

My Navy pilot training set-up is about complete. At the present time in my game there are ~2741 total Navy pilots and I have ~1112 in semi-permanent training, about 40%. I say semi because this includes the air groups off of the Akagi and they will go back on duty at some point in time.

Is this reasonable?

I need to check further on what percentage of my existing pilots are adequately trained. If it takes three months to fully train, then in six months, ~eighty percent of my replacement pilots will be trained plus what ever were already at an acceptable level. That should be close to 100% of all my flying and reserve pool at that point in time. I know this will have to be adjusted as we go along but I have no idea as to how much.

I know that someone has had to do the numbers. My search did not produce anything and I have not read that many AARs. If someone could provide the numbers and/or a link it would be appreciated.

I want to have enough training but not too much as I am sure there is a point of diminishing returns.

Thanks for any help.

For me, once fatigue is <=5 and morale is at 99, I set training to 100%, range 0 and at 5-6k feet. Just check them 1-2 times a month. I pull them out when experience is >50 and skill(s) are 70+ and replace them with more rookies. Op losses are minimal.

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

I generally don't pull fuel from asia, but its a player decision.

I definitely pull resources from asia though. I would get some convoys setup from Fusan. See if you can get that going at this stage. 50/50 it will work.

I agree with Pax here. I don't pull any fuel (I'll send a convoy in 1-2 times a year as needed). I pull oil but am careful not to pull too much. It'll screw up the refineries at Pt. Arthur messing up everything. I suck as many resources as I can get.

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: el lobo

Hi GetAssista,

I am going to be selective. For example, Changsha has Resources 10(70), HI 8(52), LI 18(142) and has supply at twenty (and this base was taken un-opposed, go figure). I am not going to repair Resources or HI, for now, as I have plenty and I understand that there will be a three year payback on the LI but I think that is one base that I will control to the end, hopefully. Hengyang is similar. Regardless, many of my units are low on supplies.

I am dumping ~25k each at Hankow and Wuchang in hopes it filters out to the needed units and bases. I may fly some into Sain which has sat at twenty since I captured it.

This is argued until the cows come home.
If you think that you can hold and keep allied bombers from Changsha until '45 then repairing the LI can have some payback. Otherwise, all you do is consume supply today that you need for a return that may never occur.

Ditto what Pax just said. I track production of all commodities in C/M/K (China/Manchuoko/Korea) and often repair damaged HI there. It's all what you think is right. Pax's first sentence is particularly appropriate. [:)]

[GetAssista]

El Lobo, lucky you, look who came to your thread [:)] Now you are in good hands wrt all your industry planning needs

Couple words about plane R&D in addition to Pax's, who is the treasure trove of knowledge (have I mentioned already that you are lucky here with outside advice?).
- There is quite a bit of available R&D factories, and there are diminishing returns from adding more factories to the research of a particular plane model. So you can and should research more than a dozen models. 30 is the best size, unless you want to turn the factory to production later. All sizes repair with same proportional speed (that is will be fully repaired approximately at the same time)
- There is not much additional benefit in putting more than 5-6 R&D factories on a model (e.g. 0->5 R&D factories on A7M2 since 1941 gives you ~10 months advance while 5->10 adds only 3 more months).
- A lot of non-massproduced but useful planes (Judy-C, Norm, nightfighters, transports) benefit from only 1 R&D factory. You will get some advancements especially if engine pool is there AND you will also get a ready-to-go factory when them become available.
- Try to get engine bonuses earlier. Ha-35 is desirable in spring 1942 if you not rush your fighter production needlessly.
- Fighter R&D chains are very useful especially with engine bonus. Oscar is satisfying to R&D and good escort fodder through all war. Not all chains are needed with PDU ON, and not all frames in a chain are needed. E.g. you can pick either Tojo or Tony and research the hell out. Dunno if later Zeros after A6M5c are useful as to spend R&D on them (I switch to Sam), but then I have scant PBEM experience.

[PaxMondo]

GA,

I think you overlooked that this is a Realistic R&D = ON game.

Code: Select all

 2.4.8 REALISTIC R&D
 This switch controls whether the Japanese player can convert the production of factories which
 are producing currently available aircraft into ones researching future aircraft, and vice versa.
 If the switch is set to the “on” position, and the Japanese player wishes to change the aircraft
 type being produced by a factory, the choice of aircraft to convert to will be restricted in
 the following manner: When switching from an aircraft that is currently available and in
 production, only other aircraft that are also in production can be selected. Similarly, when that
 the Japanese player wishes to change the aircraft type of a factory that is performing research
 (see section 13.5), only other aircraft that are also being researched (that is – not yet available
 for production) can be selected. This represents the differences between mass production
 factories and research and development centers. In reality these are two different things, and
 freely swapping between them is not realistic.
 If the switch is set to the “off” position, no such restrictions apply. This will allow the Japanese
 player a greater ability to switch production of their factories to any aircraft type, regardless of
 whether those factories are representing aircraft production or R&D facilities.
 The default position for this switch is “on”, as this is a more realistic representation of the
 Japanese aircraft industry. 

[Lowpe]

Just a word on fighter research for Japan. You need to counter the Allied fighters in some way shape or manner.

Basically, that can be summed up as this:

Lightning sweeps in mid 42-43.

Jugs sweeps in 43 to 44.

Sometimes it is worth adding five more r&d factories to get a plane 3 more months early. YMMV.[;)]

[el lobo]

Grasshopper reporting for duty.

Welcome Mike. I thought the title of this AAR alone would keep you away. [:)]

GetAssista, you are absolutely correct. I am indeed honored.

Many thanks for all of you input but you will all have to excuse me for a few days as it is a lot to digest. I can see that I need to modify my a/c production SS straight-away and I already have some questions.

But here is something for you guys to contemplate. The screen-shot at the bottom is my convoys at Fusan on 3/8/42 after I rearranged the convoy system as per Pax's suggestions. Some of them have been loading and some newly arrived as you can see. I think the numbers at Fusan and PA on 3/11/42 says it all. We have not yet to draw from Singers but as it is many hexes away it probably needs some more time.

I have been trying to track the round-trip time of the convoys but it is too inconsistent but some of them are turning around in four days. My total resource capacity is 93139 and oil is 78500 (I don't know how that little 1250 tanker snuck in there but she will be used elsewhere.) Mike, your comment about watching the oil at PA is noted.

The important thing is that my resources on the HI have stopped falling. I am down to 1.63 M, twenty days. I have been working on my convoys from Hokkaido and Sakhalin since day two but I really got behind the power-curve there. I think it is OK now but I will keep tweaking.

[PaxMondo]

Well, as I read your numbers, your are clearly pulling from Shanghai. HK to Shanghai is tough as there is no direct RR nor are the roads all that good.
Unless you are unloading there, and I would use Cam Ranh or Hanoi or Shanghai to unload, you shouldn't pile up much as the LI/HI and resources are fairly balanced in the area.
If you own the RR through to Saigon, you should start seeing the Resources pull all the way from there soon. Fusan is clearly acting as a sink now.

[GetAssista]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo
GA,
I think you overlooked that this is a Realistic R&D = ON game.

No, why? There are 77 R&D factories at start in stock scenario 1 so quite a lot of research infrastructure is available to pursue a lot of planes at once. Not as many as starting settings imply of course. And realistic R&D only means that you can't switch factories from production to R&D, so you can't get more R&D factories and with time will get fewer as some will switch to production.

Which by the way means that switching should be done carefully as there will be no turning back, and for mid-war planes it's better to have one production factory of desired size, with size probably set already at research phase. OTOH late war planes, especially fighters, should have many factories, distributed into different cities to make production less vulnerable to bombing.

[el lobo]

OK, first question re a/c R&D. (Date 3/12/42)

I am going through the Zero line via the A6M2-N Rufe, (A6M5, A6M5b, A6M5c, A6M8.) I an not going to produce the Rufe but I have 5x30 R&D factories for it. The Rufe is available 4/1/42 so obviously these R&D factories will not accelerate their availability. They were not intended to that. They are intended to fully repair which they will be before 4/1/42. Two already have and the other three are close.

As I understand it, I can move them up the model line all in the same turn with-out damage to the factories. So the question is, do I move them up the line one at a time to R&D the next model and then wait until just before that model goes into production to move to the next model etc., or, should I just go directly to the A6M8 and hope to really accelerate that model? Or a combination. Either way I will not let them go into production until they get to the M8.

As a side note to that question, if you accelerate the first model in the line, does that accelerate the whole line or just that model?

I will have the 500 engines in about six weeks.

Thanks.

[PaxMondo]

You only move the model you research by one month, no other models are impacted.

Going straight for the A6M8 is your choice and depends upon why are you going for it.

[GetAssista]

ORIGINAL: el lobo
As I understand it, I can move them up the model line all in the same turn with-out damage to the factories.

No need for all in the same turn. Switch each exactly on the turn it fully repairs individually, research for the desired model will start right away. Also, think carefully which later model in the chain you would research. Later is usually better, but it also comes later. You can get stuck through some time with A6M2 which gradually loses its shine. With 5 factories and engine bonus for Ha-33 (harder to get than for Ha-35 early) you will get A6M8 somewhere late spring 1943. Or you can get A6M5 somewhere late summer 1942, it is a good plane, and later ones are questionably better trading range for protection hence having more trouble with escorting your longer CV attacks, not to mention Netties. On the other hand later A6Ms are definintely better on CAP. Your call

I've seen some guys ditching A6M research entirely after A6M5 is available and switching to Sam acceleration

[el lobo]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

You only move the model you research by one month, no other models are impacted.

Going straight for the A6M8 is your choice and depends upon why are you going for it.

Sorry for not making my question more clear but this was an R&D question and I agree with your point about the M8. I should have left the “For example” I originally had at the top of the post. I think all of us newbies start-off with a huge wish-list but then the realities of production set-in. The pruning shears are out.

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

ORIGINAL: el lobo
As I understand it, I can move them up the model line all in the same turn with-out damage to the factories.

No need for all in the same turn. Switch each exactly on the turn it fully repairs individually, research for the desired model will start right away. Also, think carefully which later model in the chain you would research. Later is usually better, but it also comes later. You can get stuck through some time with A6M2 which gradually loses its shine. With 5 factories and engine bonus for Ha-33 (harder to get than for Ha-35 early) you will get A6M8 somewhere late spring 1943. Or you can get A6M5 somewhere late summer 1942, it is a good plane, and later ones are questionably better trading range for protection hence having more trouble with escorting your longer CV attacks, not to mention Netties. On the other hand later A6Ms are definintely better on CAP. Your call

I've seen some guys ditching A6M research entirely after A6M5 is available and switching to Sam acceleration

Poor wording on my part. I meant that, as I understand it, you can move a factory up the entire model line the same turn, going one model at a time, not skipping one, with-out factory damage.

I am doing as you say, moving them as soon as they repair. I also have in my notes about the Sam and will probably go that route.

This whole question is kind of non-sequitur considering all I have to do, but these factories are blue and I want to make sure I do the right thing with them before they attempt to go into production.

Thanks all.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: el lobo
I think all of us newbies start-off with a huge wish-list but then the realities of production set-in. The pruning shears are out.

Ha! EVERYONE starts out wishing for the world! [:D]

Then you have to figure out what your plan is, and in particular when will you cede initiative. This is prolly the most critical decision because it impacts model choices, in particular fighters.


Example: While I have the initiative, I'm forced to fly unarmored Oscar fighters because I need the range for a long time ... way past getting Tojo.