Gamey play

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: rroberson

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


Then your opinion is misinformed and wrong.

You'd be surprised just how many "exploits" within the game are actually just players without the flexibility to respond to novel circumstances and rely on house rules as a crutch.

The best example is stratosweeps. I'm sure you'd rather just house rule it up so that you don't have to do any hard thinking; for me, I enjoy trying to set up my fighter groups so as to beat the stratosweep. It can be done

If you feel I am calling him a cheater, that's how you feel. I don't think I have openly said anyone was cheating.

Post #81, you say "Call it what you like. He [Loka] is cheating..."

By their intent they are cheating...if Lok or you are feeling guilty...perhaps a strong look in the mirror is in order.

Hardly.

After playing with HR's and switching to no HR's, the latter is the future. You should perhaps try it before you judge, but that might be asking a bit much.

No. Strato sweeps are the perfect example of broken game design being exploited. It is why people create house rules around them. Same with 4Es pounding naval targets below 10K. A lot of people have been playing this game now for a decade....there is a reason that there are some pretty standard house rules. Not having them breaks the game and then you find yourself playing an ahistorical mess. Now that might be fun for you and yours, but it certainly isn't fun for one hell of a lot of players who are seeking WITPAE game here.

Stratosweeps are not a broken aspect of the engine. People created house rules because they lacked enough understanding of the air model. The dive bonus is a nice bonus, but it is not all powerful - there is more to the air model in this game than the maximum altitude of an aircraft, and you can make that work for you, if you know how.

Keep in mind that I once though that stratosweeps are broken - experience has taught me that they are not.

House rules regarding aircraft altitudes are one of the crutches that were mentioned earlier in this thread - it's a clear indication that some people don't understand anything about the air model beyond the dive bonus.

I am far from the only voice in the wilderness in this respect: it is endemic in the PBEM community to place too much emphasis on altitude and the dive bonus.

If you want an example, here's one from my last turn:

Morning Air attack on Dili , at 71,115

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid detected at 32 NM, estimated altitude 42,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 6 minutes

Japanese aircraft
J2M2 Jack x 14
N1K2-J George x 2
Ki-45 KAIc Nick x 2
Ki-84a Frank x 12

Allied aircraft
Spitfire VIII x 21

Japanese aircraft losses
J2M2 Jack: 3 destroyed
Ki-84a Frank: 2 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Spitfire VIII: 5 destroyed

CAP engaged:
802 Ku S-1/A with N1K2-J George (2 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(2 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 20000.
Raid is overhead
5th Sentai with Ki-45 KAIc Nick (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(2 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 2 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 7000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 7000.
Raid is overhead
S-601 Hikotai with J2M2 Jack (0 airborne, 7 on standby, 4 scrambling)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 15000 and 37450.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 22 minutes
64th Sentai with Ki-84a Frank (0 airborne, 5 on standby, 5 scrambling)
5 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 2 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 34000 , scrambling fighters between 34000 and 34440.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 19 minutes

Imagine that: the all powerful stratosweep only broke even! But those Japanese planes were below the max altitude? What sorcery is this?

Don't panic, rroberson, you too can learn to walk, if you first put the crutches aside!

[witpqs]

+1. When it comes to fighter to fighter combat it is better to look at the altitudes as conveying relative advantages and disadvantages rather than little planes actually flying at those altitudes.

[HMSWarspite]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

ORIGINAL: rroberson

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


Then your opinion is misinformed and wrong.

You'd be surprised just how many "exploits" within the game are actually just players without the flexibility to respond to novel circumstances and rely on house rules as a crutch.

The best example is stratosweeps. I'm sure you'd rather just house rule it up so that you don't have to do any hard thinking; for me, I enjoy trying to set up my fighter groups so as to beat the stratosweep. It can be done



Post #81, you say "Call it what you like. He [Loka] is cheating..."



Hardly.

After playing with HR's and switching to no HR's, the latter is the future. You should perhaps try it before you judge, but that might be asking a bit much.

No. Strato sweeps are the perfect example of broken game design being exploited. It is why people create house rules around them. Same with 4Es pounding naval targets below 10K. A lot of people have been playing this game now for a decade....there is a reason that there are some pretty standard house rules. Not having them breaks the game and then you find yourself playing an ahistorical mess. Now that might be fun for you and yours, but it certainly isn't fun for one hell of a lot of players who are seeking WITPAE game here.

Stratosweeps are not a broken aspect of the engine. People created house rules because they lacked enough understanding of the air model. The dive bonus is a nice bonus, but it is not all powerful - there is more to the air model in this game than the maximum altitude of an aircraft, and you can make that work for you, if you know how.

Keep in mind that I once though that stratosweeps are broken - experience has taught me that they are not.

House rules regarding aircraft altitudes are one of the crutches that were mentioned earlier in this thread - it's a clear indication that some people don't understand anything about the air model beyond the dive bonus.

I am far from the only voice in the wilderness in this respect: it is endemic in the PBEM community to place too much emphasis on altitude and the dive bonus.

If you want an example, here's one from my last turn:

Morning Air attack on Dili , at 71,115

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid detected at 32 NM, estimated altitude 42,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 6 minutes

Japanese aircraft
J2M2 Jack x 14
N1K2-J George x 2
Ki-45 KAIc Nick x 2
Ki-84a Frank x 12

Allied aircraft
Spitfire VIII x 21

Japanese aircraft losses
J2M2 Jack: 3 destroyed
Ki-84a Frank: 2 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Spitfire VIII: 5 destroyed

CAP engaged:
802 Ku S-1/A with N1K2-J George (2 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(2 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 20000.
Raid is overhead
5th Sentai with Ki-45 KAIc Nick (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(2 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 2 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 7000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 7000.
Raid is overhead
S-601 Hikotai with J2M2 Jack (0 airborne, 7 on standby, 4 scrambling)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 15000 and 37450.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 22 minutes
64th Sentai with Ki-84a Frank (0 airborne, 5 on standby, 5 scrambling)
5 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 2 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 34000 , scrambling fighters between 34000 and 34440.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 19 minutes

Imagine that: the all powerful stratosweep only broke even! But those Japanese planes were below the max altitude? What sorcery is this?

Don't panic, rroberson, you too can learn to walk, if you first put the crutches aside!

My problem with this sort of thing is air combat at much above 30k is completely unhistorical. But then I am a history player, and the game does not reflect the real difficulties of flying these aircraft at these altitudes, let alone fighting them. Thus I would HR it. But I HR solely because it is not possible in RL, not because of the effect on the game balance.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: HMSWarspite

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

ORIGINAL: rroberson





No. Strato sweeps are the perfect example of broken game design being exploited. It is why people create house rules around them. Same with 4Es pounding naval targets below 10K. A lot of people have been playing this game now for a decade....there is a reason that there are some pretty standard house rules. Not having them breaks the game and then you find yourself playing an ahistorical mess. Now that might be fun for you and yours, but it certainly isn't fun for one hell of a lot of players who are seeking WITPAE game here.

Stratosweeps are not a broken aspect of the engine. People created house rules because they lacked enough understanding of the air model. The dive bonus is a nice bonus, but it is not all powerful - there is more to the air model in this game than the maximum altitude of an aircraft, and you can make that work for you, if you know how.

Keep in mind that I once though that stratosweeps are broken - experience has taught me that they are not.

House rules regarding aircraft altitudes are one of the crutches that were mentioned earlier in this thread - it's a clear indication that some people don't understand anything about the air model beyond the dive bonus.

I am far from the only voice in the wilderness in this respect: it is endemic in the PBEM community to place too much emphasis on altitude and the dive bonus.

If you want an example, here's one from my last turn:

Morning Air attack on Dili , at 71,115

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid detected at 32 NM, estimated altitude 42,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 6 minutes

Japanese aircraft
J2M2 Jack x 14
N1K2-J George x 2
Ki-45 KAIc Nick x 2
Ki-84a Frank x 12

Allied aircraft
Spitfire VIII x 21

Japanese aircraft losses
J2M2 Jack: 3 destroyed
Ki-84a Frank: 2 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Spitfire VIII: 5 destroyed

CAP engaged:
802 Ku S-1/A with N1K2-J George (2 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(2 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 20000.
Raid is overhead
5th Sentai with Ki-45 KAIc Nick (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(2 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 2 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 7000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 7000.
Raid is overhead
S-601 Hikotai with J2M2 Jack (0 airborne, 7 on standby, 4 scrambling)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 15000 and 37450.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 22 minutes
64th Sentai with Ki-84a Frank (0 airborne, 5 on standby, 5 scrambling)
5 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 2 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 34000 , scrambling fighters between 34000 and 34440.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 19 minutes

Imagine that: the all powerful stratosweep only broke even! But those Japanese planes were below the max altitude? What sorcery is this?

Don't panic, rroberson, you too can learn to walk, if you first put the crutches aside!

My problem with this sort of thing is air combat at much above 30k is completely unhistorical. But then I am a history player, and the game does not reflect the real difficulties of flying these aircraft at these altitudes, let alone fighting them. Thus I would HR it. But I HR solely because it is not possible in RL, not because of the effect on the game balance.

Quoting myself (if I may do so myself! [:D]):

ORIGINAL: witpqs

+1. When it comes to fighter to fighter combat it is better to look at the altitudes as conveying relative advantages and disadvantages rather than little planes actually flying at those altitudes.

[BJStone]

Sigh - here's your sign...

[AW1Steve]

ORIGINAL: pontiouspilot

my goodness...this threatens to be a gossip column. Don't forget the old adage: "When people quit bitchin about you....you know you are dead".

Thank you for your imput. It's a big help. It certainly will smooth things over. [8|] Anything else you'd like to contribute? [:(]

[AW1Steve]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

ORIGINAL: rroberson

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


Then your opinion is misinformed and wrong.

You'd be surprised just how many "exploits" within the game are actually just players without the flexibility to respond to novel circumstances and rely on house rules as a crutch.

The best example is stratosweeps. I'm sure you'd rather just house rule it up so that you don't have to do any hard thinking; for me, I enjoy trying to set up my fighter groups so as to beat the stratosweep. It can be done



Post #81, you say "Call it what you like. He [Loka] is cheating..."



Hardly.

After playing with HR's and switching to no HR's, the latter is the future. You should perhaps try it before you judge, but that might be asking a bit much.

No. Strato sweeps are the perfect example of broken game design being exploited. It is why people create house rules around them. Same with 4Es pounding naval targets below 10K. A lot of people have been playing this game now for a decade....there is a reason that there are some pretty standard house rules. Not having them breaks the game and then you find yourself playing an ahistorical mess. Now that might be fun for you and yours, but it certainly isn't fun for one hell of a lot of players who are seeking WITPAE game here.

Stratosweeps are not a broken aspect of the engine. People created house rules because they lacked enough understanding of the air model. The dive bonus is a nice bonus, but it is not all powerful - there is more to the air model in this game than the maximum altitude of an aircraft, and you can make that work for you, if you know how.

Keep in mind that I once though that stratosweeps are broken - experience has taught me that they are not.

House rules regarding aircraft altitudes are one of the crutches that were mentioned earlier in this thread - it's a clear indication that some people don't understand anything about the air model beyond the dive bonus.

I am far from the only voice in the wilderness in this respect: it is endemic in the PBEM community to place too much emphasis on altitude and the dive bonus.

If you want an example, here's one from my last turn:

Morning Air attack on Dili , at 71,115

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid detected at 32 NM, estimated altitude 42,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 6 minutes

Japanese aircraft
J2M2 Jack x 14
N1K2-J George x 2
Ki-45 KAIc Nick x 2
Ki-84a Frank x 12

Allied aircraft
Spitfire VIII x 21

Japanese aircraft losses
J2M2 Jack: 3 destroyed
Ki-84a Frank: 2 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Spitfire VIII: 5 destroyed

CAP engaged:
802 Ku S-1/A with N1K2-J George (2 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(2 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 20000.
Raid is overhead
5th Sentai with Ki-45 KAIc Nick (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(2 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 2 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 7000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 7000.
Raid is overhead
S-601 Hikotai with J2M2 Jack (0 airborne, 7 on standby, 4 scrambling)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 15000 and 37450.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 22 minutes
64th Sentai with Ki-84a Frank (0 airborne, 5 on standby, 5 scrambling)
5 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 2 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 34000 , scrambling fighters between 34000 and 34440.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 19 minutes

Imagine that: the all powerful stratosweep only broke even! But those Japanese planes were below the max altitude? What sorcery is this?

Don't panic, rroberson, you too can learn to walk, if you first put the crutches aside!

I'm probably the biggest proponent of "minimum rules" that there is on this forum. That said , I've also said that I'll accept any house rule that a member of the dev team says is needed without question. THIS is one of those rules. Why? Because The Elf (remember him?) SAYS that it is. It's a rare thing to get someone with standing to say "we need this". That's enough for me.

Now mr "Mind messing" , did you really feel the need for that comment about "learning to play?". Bill has already admonished everyone for their comments. Do you really NEED to throw gasoline (petrol to you) on a dying fire? [:-]

[AW1Steve]

ORIGINAL: BJStone

Sigh - here's your sign...

Oh that's a big help! You must feel really clever! [:-] Let's stay on subject and discuss this like adults.

[AW1Steve]

So far all this thread has done is 1) horrify me with the inventive ways some "players" will come up with to get a leg up on their opponent. 2) It's helped me compile a pretty long list of people that I'll never play against! (Unsurprisingly 2 were already on my "green button list". And there are only 3 names on it).

When I grew up in that little town from Maine that I hail from , there were a couple of small merchants who were known as "sharp". Now some people mean that to be "well dressed". In Maine it meant they would always "take the sharp end of the law". They'd never break the law , but ride "the sharp edge of the law". They would ALWAYS follow the letter of the law , but never the intent. And people who knew them would avoid them like venereal disease.

I haven't thought about such practices for a long, long time. Now they tell me NEVER to play someone without references and a through grasp of that persons ethics (or lack there-of).

I never realized how many ways to "take the edge" of this game existed. Guess I've just been playing with the right people. I've been lucky , and trusting. [X(][8|][:(]

[BJStone]

Oh no!!!! Tell me you did not just wag you finger and point at me.... [;)]

In truth, all I can do is...

[AW1Steve]

ORIGINAL: BJStone

Oh no!!!! Tell me you did not just wag you finger and point at me.... [;)]

In truth, all I can do is...

Yes I did. You are a relatively infrequent visitor to this forum. If you come around more often you'll see that people take this game seriously. One player has raised a serious issue of great concern. Others have answered him. We've tried to be adults here and discuss our concerns. Your "cutesy" sign does not advance that goal. In insulting and demeaning a person in his legitimate concern , you demean ALL of us trying to resolve this issue. I don't know if the others are insulted, but I am. Please respect our trying to air our differences and come to consensus. [:)]

[rroberson]

ORIGINAL: HMSWarspite



My problem with this sort of thing is air combat at much above 30k is completely unhistorical. But then I am a history player, and the game does not reflect the real difficulties of flying these aircraft at these altitudes, let alone fighting them. Thus I would HR it. But I HR solely because it is not possible in RL, not because of the effect on the game balance.

That was my problem with it until I ran into an opponent who had all his fighters sweeping at max alt while mine couldn't go above 15K or so.

Turn after turn the results were devastating. I finally reached the point where I just wouldn't cap anything he was interested in.

After that I was a true believe of the evils of the stratosweep.

[rroberson]

ORIGINAL: BJStone

Sigh - here's your sign...

Interesting...the moderator says stop with the personal jabs and you double down.

I admire your courage.

[BJStone]

Bite me. Rrobinson took over a game from someone else and impinged the previous player because he has a different style of game play? That's foul.

Re-read Bill's post (wdolson). Please chill. If you want to play a sim find someone that wants to play a sim. If you want to work the "edge" than find someone that does the same. And if you can't take a bit of a joke (in other words Bill's post to chill with the finger pointing) and see some humor in a high horse for finger pointing then go soak yourself. Apparently we all seem to have some differences in our sense of humor. Go figure.

I've been around for some time too. Your mine's-bigger-than-yours crap about post counts is just that: crap. We all have opinions about this subject. No one asked you to get in the middle and try to make everyone play nice. Sure - maybe I lurk much more than you do but this forum is for all of us - not just those with 13000+ posts.

And if you're insulted then that's on you. You have control over your emotions and thoughts - not me. Nobody in this thread is coming to any type of consensus to what is gamey - we all have different opinions. You and Rroberson should find people who play like you do and enjoy the game. Quit crapping on mind_messing, Lokasenna, and those that play the game differently.

[rroberson]

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

So far all this thread has done is 1) horrify me with the inventive ways some "players" will come up with to get a leg up on their opponent. 2) It's helped me compile a pretty long list of people that I'll never play against! (Unsurprisingly 2 were already on my "green button list". And there are only 3 names on it).

When I grew up in that little town from Maine that I hail from , there were a couple of small merchants who were known as "sharp". Now some people mean that to be "well dressed". In Maine it meant they would always "take the sharp end of the law". They'd never break the law , but ride "the sharp edge of the law". They would ALWAYS follow the letter of the law , but never the intent. And people who knew them would avoid them like venereal disease.

I haven't thought about such practices for a long, long time. Now they tell me NEVER to play someone without references and a through grasp of that persons ethics (or lack there-of).

I never realized how many ways to "take the edge" of this game existed. Guess I've just been playing with the right people. I've been lucky , and trusting. [X(][8|][:(]

What is this green button list everyone refers to?

And yes this. I think the thing is, I started this seeking information where the fun was from gaming the game rather then playing the opponent. I have actually learned more ways that people game the design which is good and something I can watch for when I am screen future opponents. But it also disappointing as well because I would like to play the game with anyone who up for it. Wargaming is already fairly niche and the few serious wargamers out there are few and far between. Apparently they are fewer then even I had realized.

[rroberson]

ORIGINAL: BJStone

Bite me. Rrobinson took over a game from someone else and impinged the previous player because he has a different style of game play? That's foul.

Re-read Bill's post (wdolson). Please chill. If you want to play a sim find someone that wants to play a sim. If you want to work the "edge" than find someone that does the same. And if you can't take a bit of a joke (in other words Bill's post to chill with the finger pointing) and see some humor in a high horse for finger pointing then go soak yourself. Apparently we all seem to have some differences in our sense of humor. Go figure.

I've been around for some time too. Your mine's-bigger-than-yours crap about post counts is just that: crap. We all have opinions about this subject. No one asked you to get in the middle and try to make everyone play nice. Sure - maybe I lurk much more than you do but this forum is for all of us - not just those with 13000+ posts.

And if you're insulted then that's on you. You have control over your emotions and thoughts - not me. Nobody in this thread is coming to any type of consensus to what is gamey - we all have different opinions. You and Rroberson should find people who play like you do and enjoy the game. Quit crapping on mind_messing, Lokasenna, and those that play the game differently.

Interesting...you double down on the personal attacks and then act like you are being funny. Hope it works out for you.

As far as impinging on the previous player. I came into this not understanding how anyone could possible enjoy the style of play he was using. He didn't fight his opponent...He took every single unit he could load up and ran. He divided all his transports into single ship units and sent them to off map locations....the list goes on and on and on. The kicker was he dropped the game because he objected the his opponents mass bombing campaign.

Impinging...sure okay...more like questioning the the game style.

[AW1Steve]

ORIGINAL: BJStone

Bite me. Rrobinson took over a game from someone else and impinged the previous player because he has a different style of game play? That's foul.

Re-read Bill's post (wdolson). Please chill. If you want to play a sim find someone that wants to play a sim. If you want to work the "edge" than find someone that does the same. And if you can't take a bit of a joke (in other words Bill's post to chill with the finger pointing) and see some humor in a high horse for finger pointing then go soak yourself. Apparently we all seem to have some differences in our sense of humor. Go figure.

I've been around for some time too. Your mine's-bigger-than-yours crap about post counts is just that: crap. We all have opinions about this subject. No one asked you to get in the middle and try to make everyone play nice. Sure - maybe I lurk much more than you do but this forum is for all of us - not just those with 13000+ posts.

And if you're insulted then that's on you. You have control over your emotions and thoughts - not me. Nobody in this thread is coming to any type of consensus to what is gamey - we all have different opinions. You and Rroberson should find people who play like you do and enjoy the game. Quit crapping on mind_messing, Lokasenna, and those that play the game differently.

OK I've re-read Bill's post. Have you? Some how I don't see him endorsing the phrase "bite me" as trying resolve the problem. If you really don't care about the problem , and can't be respectful to those seriously discussing the issue , why are you here? Outside of antagonizing people, and stirring the "crap pot" , what exactly do you hope to achieve? Apparently nothing constructive. Think about it.

Matrix has informed us again and again , NO PERSONAL ATTACKS. Please consider that in your next post. And I never bite squirrels (even "Rambo-squirrels"). They carry rabies and other diseases. [:D]

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

Now mr "Mind messing" , did you really feel the need for that comment about "learning to play?". Bill has already admonished everyone for their comments. Do you really NEED to throw gasoline (petrol to you) on a dying fire? [:-]

Well, it's fairly obvious that rroberson is making judgments based on insufficient information considering the below quote:

ORIGINAL: rroberson

ORIGINAL: HMSWarspite



My problem with this sort of thing is air combat at much above 30k is completely unhistorical. But then I am a history player, and the game does not reflect the real difficulties of flying these aircraft at these altitudes, let alone fighting them. Thus I would HR it. But I HR solely because it is not possible in RL, not because of the effect on the game balance.

That was my problem with it until I ran into an opponent who had all his fighters sweeping at max alt while mine couldn't go above 15K or so.

Turn after turn the results were devastating. I finally reached the point where I just wouldn't cap anything he was interested in.

After that I was a true believe of the evils of the stratosweep.

Then your CAP was set up wrong.

Others have beat the stratosweep. I have beat the stratosweep.

Just because you were incapable of layering your CAP doesn't make the game engine faulty.

If you want a better authority than me, then speak to Alfred about it.

ORIGINAL: rroberson

ORIGINAL: BJStone

Bite me. Rrobinson took over a game from someone else and impinged the previous player because he has a different style of game play? That's foul.

Re-read Bill's post (wdolson). Please chill. If you want to play a sim find someone that wants to play a sim. If you want to work the "edge" than find someone that does the same. And if you can't take a bit of a joke (in other words Bill's post to chill with the finger pointing) and see some humor in a high horse for finger pointing then go soak yourself. Apparently we all seem to have some differences in our sense of humor. Go figure.

I've been around for some time too. Your mine's-bigger-than-yours crap about post counts is just that: crap. We all have opinions about this subject. No one asked you to get in the middle and try to make everyone play nice. Sure - maybe I lurk much more than you do but this forum is for all of us - not just those with 13000+ posts.

And if you're insulted then that's on you. You have control over your emotions and thoughts - not me. Nobody in this thread is coming to any type of consensus to what is gamey - we all have different opinions. You and Rroberson should find people who play like you do and enjoy the game. Quit crapping on mind_messing, Lokasenna, and those that play the game differently.

Interesting...you double down on the personal attacks and then act like you are being funny. Hope it works out for you.

As far as impinging on the previous player. I came into this not understanding how anyone could possible enjoy the style of play he was using. He didn't fight his opponent...He took every single unit he could load up and ran. He divided all his transports into single ship units and sent them to off map locations....the list goes on and on and on. The kicker was he dropped the game because he objected the his opponents mass bombing campaign.

Impinging...sure okay...more like questioning the the game style.

I really don't understand you rroberson.

Post #81 you accuse someone of cheating. Suddenly you're just questioning the game style?

ORIGINAL: rroberson

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

So far all this thread has done is 1) horrify me with the inventive ways some "players" will come up with to get a leg up on their opponent. 2) It's helped me compile a pretty long list of people that I'll never play against! (Unsurprisingly 2 were already on my "green button list". And there are only 3 names on it).

When I grew up in that little town from Maine that I hail from , there were a couple of small merchants who were known as "sharp". Now some people mean that to be "well dressed". In Maine it meant they would always "take the sharp end of the law". They'd never break the law , but ride "the sharp edge of the law". They would ALWAYS follow the letter of the law , but never the intent. And people who knew them would avoid them like venereal disease.

I haven't thought about such practices for a long, long time. Now they tell me NEVER to play someone without references and a through grasp of that persons ethics (or lack there-of).

I never realized how many ways to "take the edge" of this game existed. Guess I've just been playing with the right people. I've been lucky , and trusting. [X(][8|][:(]

What is this green button list everyone refers to?

And yes this. I think the thing is, I started this seeking information where the fun was from gaming the game rather then playing the opponent. I have actually learned more ways that people game the design which is good and something I can watch for when I am screen future opponents. But it also disappointing as well because I would like to play the game with anyone who up for it. Wargaming is already fairly niche and the few serious wargamers out there are few and far between. Apparently they are fewer then even I had realized.

So, how do you "game the design"?

I'm genuinely curious as to how you make the distinction between normal play and "gaming the design". I don't see how it could be anything other than arbitrary.

Why can I use 2E bombers at any altitude I want for naval attacks, but when I use planes with two more engines, I'm suddenly gaming the system?

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

So far all this thread has done is 1) horrify me with the inventive ways some "players" will come up with to get a leg up on their opponent. 2) It's helped me compile a pretty long list of people that I'll never play against! (Unsurprisingly 2 were already on my "green button list". And there are only 3 names on it).

Yes, yes, I get it. I'm rotten to the core blah blah blah.

Not that I will change your mind, but -

- Everything I have ever done in any PBEM has been permitted by the game design.
- Nothing constitutes a "leg up", in that my opponent can do the same, or counter it.

[paradigmblue]

To the topic at hand - I think it's absurd to suggest that you can judge someone's moral code by the way that they play a game. Impugning someone's character because they choose to buy out a LCU more efficiently? That's out of line.

Offtopic, if someone could message me with this strategy on how to defeat strato-sweeps, I'd be grateful. I'm being absolutely torn apart in two of my PBEMs by 30k+ sweeps, and a counter to them would be really helpful. That being said, I don't bare any ill-will to my opponents for using the strategy. I believe in playing the game to the fullest, and I don't want to play knowing that I have handicapped my opponent by forcing them to not use effective tactics. The entire point of the game is to use effective tactics.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: BJStone

Sigh - here's your sign...

Thanks. If I weren't in the middle of moving with no real internet... there would have been some really creative language from me. Still forum appropriate, mind you, hence the need to be creative. What an arse.

Yours Truly,
The Biggest Cheater Ever


What a f'ing joke.