Kursk Campaign for v5.0??

Warrior · Post by **Warrior** » Tue Apr 03, 2001 8:13 am

Go for it and ignore anybody who gets in the way.

Toey · Post by **Toey** » Tue Apr 03, 2001 10:22 am

Sounds like a great idea.

David Roldan Castillo · Tue Apr 03, 2001 3:59 pm

You are right victorhauser, Wittman was in Leibstandarte...

I think that SS are the best option for a campaign in Kursk (historical.

Saludos...

Charles2222 · Post by **Charles2222** » Tue Apr 03, 2001 7:18 pm

victorhauser: Glad to be of service. It's all sort of nitpicking anyway, but for me, I won't create any SS units, but if you had made the campaign, I MIGHT have played it, but as you rescind said campaign idea, you are doing what I would, in the sense that you withdraw creating SS units, though, perhaps, you might find yourself playing with some that someone else has created.

Sometimes it's just not easy to see how widespread our viewpoint should stretch, in order not to counter our beliefs.

adantas · Post by **adantas** » Tue Apr 03, 2001 9:02 pm

Hi folks,

The ideia of campaing covering the battle of Kursk sounds marvelous and I don't care if I'll play with an SS force or a Red Guard's one..Japanese, US or Brits...My opinion is if we have good scenarios and interesting campaigns.I'll play them all..I don't care with ideological or political bla bla bla..
I just care with a good battle of SPWAW

Go ahead!!! Panzer vorwarts!!!

--------------
Senta à Pua!!!

Gallo Rojo · Post by **Gallo Rojo** » Tue Apr 03, 2001 9:23 pm

I would love to see a Kursk campaign! Kursk was one of my always favorites military actions.

I have a question: as I understand this will be a designed campaign by you (not a mega campaign by Matrix team) ... but on a previous post you describe how the Core units will be compound. Including unit types and experience level ... How is this possible? You can’t give a player his core units, that’s something that each one do ...
So ... do you will give us 30.000 battle points and suggest how our core must be compound?

victorhauser · Post by **victorhauser** » Tue Apr 03, 2001 10:54 pm

Gallo:
Even though I'm no longer going to proceed with my earlier proposal, here is how I would do it...

Set up a "skeleton" campaign.
Buy a core force for that skeleton campaign.
Use the scenario editor to modify the core force.
Reset and now you have a preset core force already chosen for the players starting with turn 1 of the first game.

Coachace · Post by **Coachace** » Tue Apr 03, 2001 11:03 pm

Victorhauser:
I'm sorry to hear you rescind your proposal on a Kursk campaign. I hope you'll still offer maps or possibly work on other campaigns.

Tanks,
Coachace

Charles2222 · Post by **Charles2222** » Tue Apr 03, 2001 11:09 pm

victorhauser: I haven't played that many scenarios, but I've played enough to know that a scenario without preset objectives can be a disaster, since you were indeed talking about the player starting out on turn one. There seem to be a lot of non-CC suggested scenarios, and I don't see why CC should be a problem, if only the designers would remember to give all the formations objectives. True, the designer may come up with objectives the player won't want to use, but some objective is better than none.

victorhauser · Post by **victorhauser** » Tue Apr 03, 2001 11:26 pm

Charles:
Correct. I always play with Command/Control turned ON. Thus, I would've ensured that all formations would have a specified objective on turn 1.

El Che · Post by **El Che** » Wed Apr 04, 2001 1:07 am

Originally posted by victorhauser:
Charles:
.

My objection all along has been against those who would glorify the SS and those who willingly let themselves be seduced by the myths and legends that surround the SS like a dark cloud.

Perhaps you believe that my thoughts about setting up a Kursk campaign as I've proposed might lead to such glorification. If so, then I would like to hear more. Maybe mine wasn't a very good idea and maybe there are better alternatives for a Kursk campaign.

.

Victorhaussser:

I like huge scenarios, and I like eastern front, so a Kursk Campaign in terms that you describe its one that I would really like to play.

As you said AI is much better on the defense than on the attack. That’s why I joy much more offensive campaigns. So I agree that the best way to play Kursk would be from

I also agree about LSHA, attached to the IInd SS Pz Corps, is the most playable perspective from a German side campaigns. The reasons are the same that you give: IIdn PzCorps was the only German Corps that made a serious penetration and the only which was near to made a break in soviet defenses (that ends in Prokhorovka battle).

Now: My mother was Jew, my wife was Jew. I have lived some years in Israel. And I have left-radical political beliefs.

With such background you can be sure that I don’t have much sympathy for Nazis.

I subscribe to what you said about abhor SS for what they was and what they did.
The SS was criminal organizations and the nazi regime was a criminal regime.

And of course I don’t like people who glamorize them. Actually, “don’t like” is a soft expression for what I feel about them.

Now: if you do a Kursk campaign, based on LSHA (Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler, let say it whit all their letters) ... I not only will NOT consider it as an offence or a SS glorification, but also I will download, play and joy it!

Because this is a GAME!!

You’re talking about an historical recreation about a military confrontation in which some SS formation had a relevant participation.

Is not a morbid recreation of SS or Nazi crimes. You’re doing nor a campaign about those killer groups that had followed nazi advance killing Jewish and political adversaries neither something about concentration camps.

If you want to avoid any mistrust about this, just write some about what you think about SS, what they did and what they was.
As an example of this take a glance of “North of Psel” scenario introduction:

“Today you command a large portion of the 3rd SS Panzergrendier division, known by the name "Totenkopf." It was a very experienced and effective unit throughout the second world war, and was also guilty of several atrocities against humanity”

Best regards

Toey · Post by **Toey** » Wed Apr 04, 2001 2:25 am

So we're missing out on what sounded like a great campaign, because it's wrong to us the SS in a computer wargame?

That just doesn't seem right.....

Grumble · Post by **Grumble** » Wed Apr 04, 2001 2:38 am

I note that Japanese Atrocities against the Chinese and others haven't stopped the use of Japanese soldiers in scenarios...
If one believes that wargaming "glorifies" the German military machine of the Second World War-specifically one part of it Waffen SS (which IMHO don't believe it does), then one shouldn't be involved in it.
However, because Mr Hauser in good conscience doesn't think he should design, certainly does not stop others who wish to proceed.

Akmatov · Post by **Akmatov** » Wed Apr 04, 2001 2:50 am

I'd like to express my support for the view point expressed by El Che. The Nazi regime and the SS, be they Allgemeine, Waffen-SS or Totenkopfen, were morally repugnant. This fact is pretty obvious after a little serious historical investigation.

However, what we are about here is the recreation of historical military events - not the furtherance of any political adgenda. From the point of view of military historical interest the Battle of Kursk is very interesting, regardless of one's stance on the ideologies of either side.

Frankly, the Soviet Union possessed very little if any superior moral standing over the Reich. Since the archives have been opened Russian historians have suggested that the Communists killed about one million people, mostly Russian citizens, for each of their 70 years in power. This is on a par with the Reich's 'score', the Nazi's were just in power a shorter time. Therefore East Front battles can be view with a fine moral distance as two nasty ideologies fighting each other. Of course, if you think about the poor bastards actually involved its pretty ugly, as usual.

Ideology be damn, full speed ahead Kursk!

Grumble · Post by **Grumble** » Wed Apr 04, 2001 2:54 am

Shack!!!

Sgt Popov · Post by **Sgt Popov** » Wed Apr 04, 2001 3:48 am

I would LOVE to play a Kursk Campaign!. I am of Russian descent and many of my relatives were in the Soviet Army. Read any East front book worth its salt, and you will see numerous commanders named Popov. Needless to say, I am not a fan of the untermunsch mentality that was brainwashed into Hitlers fanatical SS units.However, I am very much into military history, and nobody can deny the fact that it was the biggest tank battle in history! (Probably for all time)Also, nobody can deny that the SS units were quite impressive in their military prowess and elan, contributing a large share of the largest gains. I see people here bringing political beliefs into this forum, and I am astounded.

This is a game and thats all it is. I personally respect the German engineering and craftmanship of their (for the most part) superior AFVs.Ease up, and enjoy this great game Matrix has been kind enough to develop!

Joaquim · Post by **Joaquim** » Wed Apr 04, 2001 4:24 am

All this is more a question of grade, than anything else... should I stop playing any game portaing US subs? You know, I read in a US mag that a US sub commander (in WWII) received a medal, after sending down a jap cargo ship... the weird thing is that he received the medal because after that he emerged the sub to shoot the crew of the cargo... yes, the medal was for the crew, not the cargo..
if I stoped playing any game for the SS, then I would also forbid my kids from playing Age of Empires, or any wargame for what matters...
Well, from the strick concern post here, I guess I could let them play with «space» wargames... even if I wonder if none of these portais a «space race» wich actually exists somewhere...

Victor, I know my opinion is... well, frankly worthless. Anyway, I give (why everybody gives his opinion? but even knowing the valour of it?!?

): do it for yourself! Don't tell more about it, don't distribute it - just give it a try and enjoy... this way you don't get involved in this kind of stuff...

I hope to hear somehing after you played it!!..

Daniel Oskar · Post by **Daniel Oskar** » Wed Apr 04, 2001 4:58 am

If there is so much objection to depicting the SS at Kursk, how about tackling it from the angle of the Grossdeutschland division's assault on the left of the II SS. Their penetration wasn't quite as deep, but no less bloody or challenging. And there is the added bonus of getting to use the new Pzkw V
of the 10th Pz Bde attacking with them as a part of the XLVIII Pz Corps.

Grenadier · Post by **Grenadier** » Wed Apr 04, 2001 5:03 am

Does everyone realize that there were about 130 Tigers in Zitadelle? Model had 30 and Manstein had about 100 divided among 7 panzer divisions.

Originally posted by Fabio Prado:
Hi, Victorhauser!

I am not only wanting this campaign like hell - I also want to post it in The ARMOR Site! A super campaign like this, with lots of Tigers, it sounds like a dream to me!

What do you think?

Kind regards,

Fab

victorhauser · Post by **victorhauser** » Wed Apr 04, 2001 11:14 pm

Upon even further reflection, a Kursk campaign will be extraordinarily difficult to design and play no matter what force is chosen to represent the core.

For instance, Model's 9th Army penetrated approximately 15km into the Soviet defenses in 6 days (at which point his offensive collapsed from exhaustion after losing 400 tanks and 50,000 troops). 6 days to go only 15km!

Given the daylight conditions of high summer at that latitude (about 18 hours of daylight per day), that means that in 108 hours of daylight, Model's forces advanced about 0.15km per hour (which is about 3.25 hexes per hour in SPWaW terms). Now since each SPWaW turn is around 5-10 minutes (guessing here) that means a 30-turn scenario could represent up to 5 hours of combat or so. Thus, a 30-turn scenario would yield an historical penetration of 16-17 hexes. Now, what player wants to subject himself to the torture of advancing 1/6 the way across an SPWaW map against the most brutal defenses imagineable, for battle after battle after battle?

I have gained a much greater appreciation for the real-life hell that must've been Kursk!

Even the best rate of advance (that of the II SS Panzer Korps) gained only 40km in 8 days which yields an average advance rate of just over 6 SPWaW hexes per hour (or about 31 SPWaW hexes per 30-turn battle).

What this tells me is that the battles of any Kursk campaign will definitely NOT be elegant battles of maneuver. Instead they will be vicious slugfests of carnage. And for players to do as well as their historical counterparts (assuming a German perspective here) means that they lose. If they do better than that then they get a draw. If they do much better then they get a marginal. And if they do fantastically better (fantastically can be interpreted here to mean "pure fantasy") then they get a decisive.

Even if I was somehow able to come up with a way to make a Kursk campaign work, who on earth would want to play it knowing ahead of time what they would be getting into??