Kursk Campaign for v5.0??

victorhauser · Post by **victorhauser** » Mon Apr 02, 2001 12:29 am

I recently read The Battle of Kursk(David Glantz, 1999). I am thinking about doing a campaign when v5.0 comes out if enough people express interest.

The campaign would be designed to be played by the German player against the AI as the Soviets.

The German player will be given a core force taken from the SSLAH Division. This core kampfgruppe will consist of a reinforced Recon Battalion, a reinforced Tank Battalion (including Wittmann and his Tigers), and a reinforced Panzergrenadier Battalion, plus a variety of support and auxiliary forces from battle to battle.

Since the spearhead of SSLAH (you) historically penetrated about 40 kilometers from 5 July - 12 July and each SPWAW map is roughly 5 kilometers long, then the campaign will consist of approximately 8 battles, or one battle per day.

Does this sound interesting to you?

Fabs · Post by **Fabs** » Mon Apr 02, 2001 12:49 am

You bet it does!

skukko · Post by **skukko** » Mon Apr 02, 2001 12:53 am

Hi

If you have Tigers in your scenario, fame is quaranteed

Look at the 'North of Psel' and 'Moment of Thruth' scenarios. First is having great map of battle area (and is one of the greatest scenarios) and last named is Great stuff from WB.

mosh

And Kursk would be fine minicampaing...

Figmo · Post by **Figmo** » Mon Apr 02, 2001 1:12 am

Yes - I think I've messed up enough around here that I'm being sent to the Russian front - so it might as well be a campaign!!

Do I have to learn Russian? I'm having enough trouble with Italian!!

Figmo

Drex · Post by **Drex** » Mon Apr 02, 2001 2:18 am

It sounds like a winner to me!

K_Tiger · Post by **K_Tiger** » Mon Apr 02, 2001 2:27 am

Damn..Kursk was the biggest battle in History..why you r still here??..gogogo...made it..what a question..LoL

Wild Bill · Post by **Wild Bill** » Mon Apr 02, 2001 7:28 am

It is on our "must do" list, guys! It will happen. No dates, but we have too many EF gurus on staff to let this one go by.

It would be a disgrace with this fine game we have and all its tools to not include a campaign on Kursk! Absolutely!

Thanks Mosh! I've loved Moment of Truth since I first did it early on in the opening days of SPWAW.

I have the mine sweepers (German) replaced and fixed. Thanks for the heads up on that. You will get the updated version in 5.0

Plenty of EF coming out with the new version and more on the way!

Wild Bill

skukko · Post by **skukko** » Mon Apr 02, 2001 9:40 am

To WB: Minenrams !!! YES!!!

I was a bit worried, you know...

Funny thing is that Momenth of thruth still works as a great study of dealing with mines...

mosh

and sure Battle of Kursk is must a have

Fabio Prado · Post by **Fabio Prado** » Mon Apr 02, 2001 11:01 am

Hi, Victorhauser!

I am not only wanting this campaign like hell - I also want to post it in The ARMOR Site! A super campaign like this, with lots of Tigers, it sounds like a dream to me!

What do you think?

Kind regards,

Fab

David Roldan Castillo · Mon Apr 02, 2001 3:38 pm

Only a question, I think that Wittman was in Das Reich, no in Leibstandarte....

Charles2222 · Post by **Charles2222** » Mon Apr 02, 2001 5:11 pm

victorhauser: I'm a wee bit curious Victor. I recall you're one of those that have claimed the SS wasn't an elite force, or in any case that the Grossdeutschland division wasn't included in the game (it is just one division afterll, not an entire wing of the nation's forces, such as the Waffen SS) should be included as elite also. I was also thinking that you refused to play with SS units on a matter of principle or something. Have you changed your mind? Doesn't your prior thoughts conflict with doing what you propose here (though I know playing and creating isn't exactly the same thing)?

victorhauser · Post by **victorhauser** » Mon Apr 02, 2001 9:42 pm

Charles:
My thoughts concerning the SS have not changed. I still abhor them and what they stood for and what they did. And I still maintain that they were not the most elite combat troops in the German Army. However, I had to account for the historical reality as well as the "game".

The fact is that the II SS Panzer Korps made the only serious penetration into the Soviet defenses at Kursk and the LSSAH was the spearhead of that advance. So from a purely game perspective, the most "playable" campaign from the German perspective is to build upon that reality as a design framework. Also, since the AI is much better in defense than in attack, I ruled out a Kursk campaign from the Soviet perspective.

So, I am keeping this on a strictly gaming level and my own ideological and political views out of it.

On With The Show...
As of now I see the German Core as follows:
One company of Tiger I
Two companies of Pz IVG
One company of Pz IIIL
One battery of Stg III
Three companies of Armored Recon
One company of Panzer Pioneers
Three companies of SS Panzergrenadiers
One battery of Hummel
Two batteries of Wespe
One platoon of Nashorn
One platoon of Brumbaer
One platoon of Flammpanzer III
One battery of 88mm AA
Two batteries of 20mm AA
One battery of 20mm Flakvierling AA
Plus miscellaneous transport and support units

This is 330+ units in about 80 formations.

Since these are supposed to be the best troops in the division (and since they have had several months to rest, refit, and prepare), they will all be experience 90 and above.

The total True Troop Cost of the core is more than 30,000 points based on v4.5 prices.

Since I work for the University of Texas, I have access to detailed topographical maps of the region (dated 1942 and 1943). I've started work on the maps and will begin work on the units after v5.0 is released. However, if you guys think it will not be worth the time and effort, then please let me know.

Charles2222 · Post by **Charles2222** » Mon Apr 02, 2001 10:21 pm

victorhauser:

So, I am keeping this on a strictly gaming level and my own ideological and political views out of it.

Well then, apparently you understand how someone could desire to use Waffen-SS units and not have a problem with it, as their reasoning is much along the same lines; same for the SS recruitment soldier's picture this game uses which I believe you objected to most persistently.

victorhauser · Post by **victorhauser** » Mon Apr 02, 2001 10:52 pm

Charles:
I wasn't the person objecting to the SS poster as part of the SPWaW logo (even though I'm not real thrilled about it)... I'm not sure who that was although I do remember somebody did complain about it.

My objection all along has been against those who would glorify the SS and those who willingly let themselves be seduced by the myths and legends that surround the SS like a dark cloud.

Perhaps you believe that my thoughts about setting up a Kursk campaign as I've proposed might lead to such glorification. If so, then I would like to hear more. Maybe mine wasn't a very good idea and maybe there are better alternatives for a Kursk campaign.

Gamael:
At Kursk Wittmann commanded a Tiger platoon of the LSSAH Tiger company. He had been a part of Leibstandarte since the start of the war. Check out George Parada's "Actung Panzer!" website for more information.

Charles2222 · Post by **Charles2222** » Tue Apr 03, 2001 12:34 am

victorhauser: What you propose is fine by me, it's just that I thought for the stance you took it's quite inconsistent. I'm not sure I would play it, but I am slightly opposed to 'creating' SS units on my own (I don't do it, IOW), in my cores.

victorhauser · Post by **victorhauser** » Tue Apr 03, 2001 3:16 am

Charles:

Several days ago when the thought of a Kursk campaign first began percolating in my head, and even though I was uncomfortable with the thought, I reached the conclusion that the LSSAH was the logical HISTORICAL choice from which to start. I didn't like it but there it was. Was it hypocritical of me to suggest such a campaign to the SPWaW gaming community? I think anybody who knows me also knows that I would certainly not portray the SS in a glorified way, especially in a campaign that the Germans LOST, I might add.

If this were a Battle of the Bulge campaign I was proposing, then it would be easy for me to choose a core kampfgruppe from either 2nd Panzer or Panzer Lehr since they were the divisions that ultimately made the deepest penetrations into the US defenses. Thus, I could avoid the taint of association with the SS altogether.

Unfortunately for me, at Kursk both the XLVIII and the III Panzer Korps were stifled almost from the very beginning and neither even came close to accomplishing their intended missions. And in the North, ALL of Model's Wehrmacht units made even less progress against defenses that were even more formidable than those in the South.

Would history have been different if the XLVIII and the II SS Panzer Korps had switched places? Perhaps. But since it didn't happen that way, I now am placed in the uncomfortable situation of either being labled a hypocrit if I proceed, or of having to "invent history" by designing a "what-if" campaign centered on a kampfgruppe from one of the Wehrmacht divisions.

I am definitely open to suggestion here.

Joaquim · Post by **Joaquim** » Tue Apr 03, 2001 4:21 am

victorhauser, Charles_22 ,

I don't see any problem with the Waffen SS... if it was the SS...
But my point is that I don't see why making a game will be... how to say? political incorrect? Then will any wargame be «political correct»? I doubt...
Even if you go to Napoleonics (and such more «civilized» wars)... well, you can tell about the honour, and respect by civilians in those armies by the speed at wich the opinion on Napoleon changed in the «liberted» countries...
Well, in any war, at least one side can say that it is «political incorrect» to wargame it... but,at least with Panzer General I knew that there were lots of brits using panzers to invade UK, french «biltzkrieing» France, russians storming Moscow, even germans taking Berlin... and, in my opinion, they didn't blame much, and don't become worst people by doing such things - in my opinion it is more the other way around...
In my opinion if someone stops playing a game on the Waffen SS... well, perhaps then even Chess could be questionable!.!...

And, you, Charles_22,

Stop disturbing someone who should be already working!!!!

Yours,

Joaquim T. Duarte

Note: I'm not saying that the Waffen SS were as all time armies were/are... I don't even want to enter such polemic (even if it could be a gooood one

) - I could have said that the Waffen SS were so smaller than this game (probably ofending someone...

), or that every army in the world has killed civilians - not counting accidents.. but all I want to say is: go on, victorhauser, THIS time, at least, they were in a military action!! If you don't want them to look as super, just make them with less experience... after all they were just men, sometimes in a hard situation...

I remember a joke (do not read):

A boy was allways in the bar, telling about his fights and how he beated the others down, every week he had one or two stories to tell in the bar...
Someone asked him: You win allways? Never get beated down?

- Yes, but these fights it's they who go tell in their's bar!!

(As allways, sorry for the english... and in this case, sorry also for the confusing ideias - this would sound confunsing in portuguese...)

ruxius · Post by **ruxius** » Tue Apr 03, 2001 4:26 am

As for me I would be happy if the campaign will be based on historical databases instead of ideological ones...
the fact that political beliefs are showed here make me feel the fear that SPWAW can be used for a sort of personal propaganda..
I hope there is not people here who consider for true the contents of any SPWAW scenario txt or campaign while it's clear that trying to be hystorical pertinent is an added value to the campaign itself .
At least in fact everybody can always take a book and look for some comparisons .
I think Mr. Charles22 is right when he points that promoting a campaign of that subject from a person who clearly has declared to be hostile to the employment of SS-units in the game (as there could be any confusion between a game and reality) is quite
dubious...
on the other hand I am glad that Victorhauser expressed his intention to be accurate beyond his personal beliefs..

however at least he did not made in my opinion a good advertising to his campaign

As for me I think that SPWAW has to be considered a game out from being stained by politics...
I think it's quite funny that I have to attest my antifascism if I decide to play
the Italians..at the same time I find that
abhorring the SS and so playing only as a Us player against SS in SPWAW is out of context...better avoid the whole SPWAW conception if someone have this dependencies ...a game should be always and only considered a game..

Charles2222 · Post by **Charles2222** » Tue Apr 03, 2001 5:40 am

Joaquim: Hey dude, I'm trying to figure out why he would make such a big deal about the SS earlier, while now it doesn't seem so much front and center.

victorhauser: I don't know Victor, with as much fuss as you made about the SS, it seems to me there's jillions of 8 day battles you could pick instead. Do you think we just a have fixation on Kursk that has to be cured? Forgive me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that this is the first time you've proposed a scenario or campaign, and it's bittersweetly ironic that you would pick one that forces your hand towards the SS, as you say. Is that weird or what? If nothing else it at least gives me a laugh.

Were you also the one who was complaining that the wargame industry is way too fixated on WWII Germany, to the point of glorification?

Again, don't take this as a 'no' vote on your idea, but I am amazed at the turn of events.

victorhauser · Post by **victorhauser** » Tue Apr 03, 2001 7:52 am

Charles:

You are correct. I have maintained for 30 years (ever since PanzerBlitz) that the wargaming industry has been slanted towards the glorification of German military prowess, especially towards the Waffen SS. {As an aside, though, my other major complaint about the SPWaW German OOB, way back when this was being discussed, was that there were elite Wehrmacht troop types that were being ignored in favor of the SS.)

My father (a German Jew), if he were here today, would be appalled at the proposal I made for a Kursk campaign. Therefore, I retract my earlier proposal.

Thank you for helping me come to my senses, Charles.