Thread for DB3000 database problems, updates or issues

[Hongjian]

Speaking about nukes.

While testing the effectiveness of the US national ABM against a Chinese nuclear attack, I've discovered that China actually has no nukes capable of reaching the continental US from the RL positions of the DF-5A/B silos in inner and northern China, even though the DF-5 series is among China's longest ranged liquid fueled ICBM. A look in the DB reveals that the DF-5 series of ICBM only gets 4200nmi range (~7700km), which is quite a bit shorter than widely cited range of 12.000 (DF-5A) to 15.000km (DF-5B). [&:]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DF-5

[Dysta]

ORIGINAL: Hongjian

Speaking about nukes.

While testing the effectiveness of the US national ABM against a Chinese nuclear attack, I've discovered that China actually has no nukes capable of reaching the continental US from the RL positions of the DF-5A/B silos in inner and northern China, even though the DF-5 series is among China's longest ranged liquid fueled ICBM. A look in the DB reveals that the DF-5 series of ICBM only gets 4200nmi range (~7700km), which is quite a bit shorter than widely cited range of 12.000 (DF-5A) to 15.000km (DF-5B). [&:]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DF-5

I believe it's due to the lower fuel mass of liquid-fuel ICBM than solid fuel in same size. It may looks like a massive tube that looks bigger than commercial rocket for orbiting a satellite, but remember, size means weight and air friction as well.

If US speculators believe DF-5 series won't give a damn to US continents, then it's more likely by the easier interception under the US' ABM capability, rather than the inability to reach to the window of White House by range (since nobody can actually give a pinpointing range to ballistic weaponries). But think again, huge tube with liquid fuel is really a 70s tech of propulsion, and wouldn't do much of improvement with newer engines. So giving the same range of DF-5 is forgiving, but also little unrealistic.

So you may expect why many medias wouldn't give as much 'threat alarming' to DF-5 series than 'carrier killers', which is smaller, but solid-fuel propelled and much agile ASBMs.

TO DB3000 developers: I understand your numerous database enrichments and tweakings cost you lots of time, and nobody can expect it to be both realistic and perfect. However, at least giving a little in-depth of data checking before just adding into DB3000. If improved DF-5 won't give any extra range, then enlighten us with descriptions.

[Hongjian]

I believe it's due to the lower fuel mass of liquid-fuel ICBM than solid fuel in same size. It may looks like a massive tube that looks bigger than commercial rocket for orbiting a satellite, but remember, size means weight and air friction as well.

Actually, liquid-fuel usually has higher energy than solid fuel, giving you more range with the same mass. Solid fuel has the advantage that it can be stored within the missile, making it ready to launch at any time, while liquid fuel missiles take some time to be fueled, lowering their response time.

Well, and the reason why the DF-5 isnt hyped up is because it is in the Chinese nuclear arsenal since the mid 80s. Seriously, this rocket is larger than the Minuteman III and called "the Chinese SS-18 Satan". Generally, nuclear ICBM deterrence isnt hyped up, since everyone knows that noone is going to use them. The US never hyped up the DF-31/A solid-fuel road-mobile ICBM as well, even though it is a much larger leap for the PLA 2nd Artillery in terms of range and deterrence factor than the ASBMs are.

People are only hyping up the ASBM, because it is a conventional tactical weapon that is not aimed at strategic deterrence, but made for actual warfighting purposes.

Anyway, the 4200nmi range for the SS-18-sized 32m long DF-5A/B liquid fueled ICBM is severely understated, no matter how you look at it.

[Dysta]

ORIGINAL: Hongjian

I believe it's due to the lower fuel mass of liquid-fuel ICBM than solid fuel in same size. It may looks like a massive tube that looks bigger than commercial rocket for orbiting a satellite, but remember, size means weight and air friction as well.

Actually, liquid-fuel usually has higher energy than solid fuel, giving you more range with the same mass. Solid fuel has the advantage that it can be stored within the missile, making it ready to launch at any time, while liquid fuel missiles take some time to be fueled, lowering their response time.

It is have higher thrust with liquid-fuel than the solid one, but again, it's the lower mass and easier combustion made it initially have higher speed, but not as much at mid-course when ran out of fuel faster than solid fuel.

Whatever it is, DB3000's next update will be late as they're finalizing v1.09 first. This may take time, but I surely hope they will make them have more reasonable range.

[butch4343]

Hi
Wondered if it would be possible to consider adding the conventional version of the submarine launched SS-N-21 Sampson SLCM?

The weapon is in used as a conventional land attack missile broadly comparable to the Tomahawk TLAM.

I have attached what I hope is a useable template, but in reality the nuclear granat is already in the database therefore its really just changing the warhead to an HE one.

Cheers

[ComDev]

The reason we don't have a conventional SS-N-21 is because there is no info that confirms such a weapo actually exists. Only rumors and speculation [8D]

[ComDev]

I'm sorry for not responding as frequently to database requests. I'm busy working on code for 1.10 [8D] Will return to database stuff when the new features are ready for testing.

[Dysta]

ORIGINAL: emsoy

The reason we don't have a conventional SS-N-21 is because there is no info that confirms such a weapo actually exists. Only rumors and speculation [8D]

Looks like a lengthy research from lots of websites is required.

[butch4343]

[ADDED DB v441]

ORIGINAL: emsoy

The reason we don't have a conventional SS-N-21 is because there is no info that confirms such a weapo actually exists. Only rumors and speculation [8D]

Thanks for the reply Emsoy, I appreciate that your busy with other things

Could I ask that it be looked as a adding a hypothetical loadout?

There is a precedence for adding hypothetical weapons to CMANO (AIM152 and the YAL-1 Airborne Laser), further to this it wouldn’t be a unrealistic system, given that the AS-15 Kent was successfully fielded with both conventional and nuclear warheads.

Cheers

[DESRON420]

[UPDATED DB v441]

Russia Facility #2443 - Radar (Big Bird D [91N6]) has Big Bird C [64N6] instead.

[AlanChan]

read this 东风五号甲洲际导弹研制纪实
this was written by former deputy of second art. Read between the lines, expecially, about what DF-5A was aimed to reach.

[Zaslon]

[ADDED DB v441]

Russian loadouts in Syria.

In spanish but the photos are very clear.

Su-34 with a pair of KAB-500S from the same source.

[mikmykWS]

ORIGINAL: Dysta

ORIGINAL: Hongjian

Speaking about nukes.

While testing the effectiveness of the US national ABM against a Chinese nuclear attack, I've discovered that China actually has no nukes capable of reaching the continental US from the RL positions of the DF-5A/B silos in inner and northern China, even though the DF-5 series is among China's longest ranged liquid fueled ICBM. A look in the DB reveals that the DF-5 series of ICBM only gets 4200nmi range (~7700km), which is quite a bit shorter than widely cited range of 12.000 (DF-5A) to 15.000km (DF-5B). [&:]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DF-5

I believe it's due to the lower fuel mass of liquid-fuel ICBM than solid fuel in same size. It may looks like a massive tube that looks bigger than commercial rocket for orbiting a satellite, but remember, size means weight and air friction as well.

If US speculators believe DF-5 series won't give a damn to US continents, then it's more likely by the easier interception under the US' ABM capability, rather than the inability to reach to the window of White House by range (since nobody can actually give a pinpointing range to ballistic weaponries). But think again, huge tube with liquid fuel is really a 70s tech of propulsion, and wouldn't do much of improvement with newer engines. So giving the same range of DF-5 is forgiving, but also little unrealistic.

So you may expect why many medias wouldn't give as much 'threat alarming' to DF-5 series than 'carrier killers', which is smaller, but solid-fuel propelled and much agile ASBMs.

TO DB3000 developers: I understand your numerous database enrichments and tweakings cost you lots of time, and nobody can expect it to be both realistic and perfect. However, at least giving a little in-depth of data checking before just adding into DB3000. If improved DF-5 won't give any extra range, then enlighten us with descriptions.

Ah the things people say over the internet that they'd never say face to face.

Thanks for the report. We'll definitely address this in a future update.

MIke

[mikmykWS]

ORIGINAL: Dysta

ORIGINAL: Hongjian

I believe it's due to the lower fuel mass of liquid-fuel ICBM than solid fuel in same size. It may looks like a massive tube that looks bigger than commercial rocket for orbiting a satellite, but remember, size means weight and air friction as well.

Actually, liquid-fuel usually has higher energy than solid fuel, giving you more range with the same mass. Solid fuel has the advantage that it can be stored within the missile, making it ready to launch at any time, while liquid fuel missiles take some time to be fueled, lowering their response time.

It is have higher thrust with liquid-fuel than the solid one, but again, it's the lower mass and easier combustion made it initially have higher speed, but not as much at mid-course when ran out of fuel faster than solid fuel.

Whatever it is, DB3000's next update will be late as they're finalizing v1.09 first. This may take time, but I surely hope they will make them have more reasonable range.

Much better. Yes[:)]

[ComDev]

ORIGINAL: Dysta

TO DB3000 developers: I understand your numerous database enrichments and tweakings cost you lots of time, and nobody can expect it to be both realistic and perfect. However, at least giving a little in-depth of data checking before just adding into DB3000. If improved DF-5 won't give any extra range, then enlighten us with descriptions.

For brand new systems, stats are educated guessimations at best. We've been doing this for 20 years and experience tells us it is smart to use sober values at first. This avoids cases where scenarios are being built around platforms with initially over-optimistic stats that are later scaled back, ruining the scenarios. Are many examples where this has happened.

If you have detailed & reliable stats on the above systems, please post up [8D]

[ComDev]

By the way, I've added the SS-N-30 [3M14 Kalibr] cruise missile [8D]

ORIGINAL: butch4343

ORIGINAL: emsoy

The reason we don't have a conventional SS-N-21 is because there is no info that confirms such a weapo actually exists. Only rumors and speculation [8D]

Thanks for the reply Emsoy, I appreciate that your busy with other things

Could I ask that it be looked as a adding a hypothetical loadout?

There is a precedence for adding hypothetical weapons to CMANO (AIM152 and the YAL-1 Airborne Laser), further to this it wouldn’t be a unrealistic system, given that the AS-15 Kent was successfully fielded with both conventional and nuclear warheads.

Cheers

[Dysta]

I do searching for a while, but you are right, it is not an easy task at all. My apology for hasty response about range issue.

Keep it up devs, you all are doing great and I am still content in this game.

[ComDev]

Thanks [8D] Toned down my post a bit hehe.

[Stratos_MatrixForum]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DEVELOPER'S NOTE: Database development slow-down!

Hey guys,

Just wanted to let you know that I have now re-directed my limited Command time (which is squeezed inbetween family life, day-job, workout, and various other interests) to write code. My code contributions have been rather limited lately and I need to add several new features and fix a few bugs before I can start working on the Advanced Strike Planner.

This means I will only fix reported errors/inaccuracies in existing platforms and only make critical additions, i.e. units needed for a scenario currently under construction. Nice-to-have stuff (that no-one will ever use in a scenario anyway haha) will not be added.

If there is anything you consider extremely important (...enough to justify spending time on adding / fixing, rather than having me working on code) then feel feee to post. If not then you'll find me burried deep down in the Command game engine.

Thanks! [:D]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------




[ADDED DB v441]

Ok, a couple of platforms for Uruguay.

First the Pilatus Pc-7. the Uruguayan Pilatus were received in 1992 for a total of 6 machines. Working in dual role for trainer/light attack they were usually armed with 2x7.62 MAG MG pods + 2 LAU rocket pods with 7 2'75" rockets each. Can carry drop tanks as well

[/img]

The Ia-58 Pucarà, armed the same as they argentinian brothers with the usual mix of mg pods, rockets and bombs, received in late 1980. 6 in number.



And finally the Westland Wessex received during the 90's. Cannot found the exact number, but can be six AFAIK of HC.2 version for both the navy and air force users, there's one in action still in the navy.

[skjold89]

[ADDED / UPDATED DB v441, GROUND STUFF ASSIGNED TO MIKE]

I am aware that little work is done on adding new things to the DB, but i think that the top two naval additions and the TOW capable helicopter would add alot to the Swedish scenarios (out of which i am building several for public release). This represents an alternative universe where our swedish goverment actually cares about the armed forces and put SAM's on the Visby class. I also added some less important additions, such as ground units. Apparantly i can't post links here becouse i am new, which is quite the problem so i can't provide proper source links.

Visby class corvette
I want to mount the cancelled 8x (1 cell) Umkhonto SAM's on the Visby (2013) class missile frigate as a hypothetical unit. The Umkhonto SAM system is already in-game on the 2009 version of the finnish Hamina PCFG and the 2009 version of the Hämeenmaa ML.

Sources & Justification

"Swedish Navy: The Swedish government has expressed interest in the Umkhonto-IR Block 2 system for five Visby class corvettes for at total cost of about 1 bn SEK. Due to budgetary constraints a decision was taken in 2008 to delete the SAM requirement." - Wikipedia

"8 × Umkhonto SAM(cancelled)" - Wikipedia

"The Visbys will not initially be fitted with an air-defence missile system. But space has been allocated for Surface-to-Air Missiles (SAM)." - Kockums Official PDF (Naval Yard)

"Forecast International reports external link that Sweden has decided to equip its 5 Visby Class stealth corvettes external link with Denel’s Umkhonto-IR external link anti-aircraft missile system at a total cost of about SEK 1 billion (currently about $149.6 million)." - Defence Industry Daily

Bevakningsbåt typ 80 (Tapper class patrol boat) 1993-present 12x
Length: 23 m
Width: 5,4 m
Draught: 1,8 m
Top Speed: 25 knots
Displacement: 62 tons
Crew: 8 men
Engine: 2 x Deutz MWM 1200 HP Diesel Engines.
Weaponry: 6x depth charges, 4x ASW Grenade launchers with 36 grenades total, 2x HMG 12.7mm.


Hkp 10 (Eurocopter AS332 Super Puma) 12x 1988-present
Almost exclusivly SAR duty.

Hkp 9A (MBB BO 105 CB-3) 20x 1987-
Armed with 4x TOW missiles, local designation Rb 55.

Hkp 3C (Bell 204B) 24x
15x Army (transport), 9x Air Force (SAR)

Hkp 6A (Bell 206A Jetranger)
22x Army (transport)

Hkp 6B (Bell 206A Jetranger)
10x Navy (ASW) Armed with 1x ASW Tp 451

Sources: Swedish Armed Forces official website & Soldf, a veteran community.

Ground Forces
On the backburner, i would also like to request these things: (Note, not very important at all due to the limited simulation of ground forces but thought i'd ask)

[*]Add the Swedish Armored Plt Centurion from the Cold War DB to DB300. (Used until mid 1990s activly, also their designation should be Strv 104 judging by it having rangefinder.)
[*]Add Bkan 1C self propelled artillery piece. 155 mm. (1980s-2003)
[*]Add Strv 103C tank, 105 mm with laser rangefinder and 3x GMG. (1980s-1997)
[*]Add Pbv 302 Mech Inf Plt, 4x Pbv 302 with 1x Hispano 20mm, (1966 to 1990s, would fit CW DB aswell.)

Note: The Swedish CV90 Mech Inf Plt seems to be the only one in the game with infantry weapons somewhat modelled, seems weird.

This would essentially complete Sweden as a faction entirly, and would make me a very happy bunny. [&o]
Thanks for reading.