Do we support the research on application of industrial violence?

[Af1352pasha]

Thewood1,

let look at the subject with another eyes.

let us do the war here and in the games environment,and don't worry about effect of his simulation on real world of military science. If someones like to spend money for research there are too many other possible ways to trust.

In recent years the games advance in many subjects because gamer demand needs for more realistic material, we cant go back to 1980 with simple ball shooting games!!

[thewood1]

I have no idea what you are getting at...

[mikmykWS]

Burroughs if you'd like to have a frank honest discussion of who we are and what we do pm me. Looking at what you've written I think you don't have a good understanding of the business and the people involved.

In general pro business will only benefit the entertainment side but they are two separate products with some distinct requirements. We may have the same programmers assigned but the resources are different.

In terms of moral implications this is a very deep subject but at the end of the day what you design something to do and what it's used to do may not be the same. We hope that people use it to learn something about modern warfare and in the case of the entertainment product that folks have fun. It's up to the end users to make the decision to pursue that.

As an aside could you post what you do online? I'd then like to post my opinion on the moral implications of it and then ask the mob to judge. I'll then ask you how it feels.

Try and suck the fun and soul out of this all you like.

Mike

[Sensei.Tokugawa]

Fair enough, as long as you take at face value that I don't mean to judge anybody and provoke intellectual stir rather than emotional if any at all. I have been an ELT - English language teacher - for about 15 years now if that is what you are after, I am not a native speaker of English as you may easily infer. But I was also a construction worker, a shop assistant, worked at a local radio station as a DJ and moderator, then at local newspapers ( yeah, rotten media - they are even on a local level so I am off that business for the same fifteen years). Where there was still a compulsory military service - draft that is - here I was given a ticket to be a paratrooper in the 6th Abn Bde, but I chose to go to college then the compulsory military service was scrapped. I didn't like the opportunity a bit though. I have had two faculties under my belt so far ( yeah, a rotten intellectual / bookworm - I am indeed, some thirty books in reading simultaneously just on my e-book reader ... ). Yes, I commute every day some 25 clicks each way, by car and think of the world my daughter is going to inherit or just live in,on top of lots of other things but I've not much choice, job shortages and the public transport deficiencies combined. Yes, I had Korean toys as a child which might have been produced in concentration camps and I wear Chinese clothing which may be produced in force labour camps - as a side note; I happen to have a friend who ordered an original m-65 jacket in the U.S. I was with him when the parcel arrived - the label read it was made in China.

I will tell you what it feels like when you ask the question, but let me repeat; nothing here was meant to be personal. And I will buy Northern Inferno as soon as it gets released unless my pre-paid credit cared doesn't arrive on time. There you have me.

Finally, anyone who objects the idea of this thread - please don't participate if you don't refer to the very thing I meant to discuss here and indeed let the moderators here decide to intervene or not. But in the case the thread gets closed or removed this way or another let's not make the final judgement out of it - it's not the case of the good and the bad guys and who's right or wrong.

[renders]

Actually, burroughs you write very well, write something useful, so.
And stop this.
As you already mentioned, "they've got you"
I've got a citation for you : "Children shut up and go to bed" citation: my dad when we started whining as you do. There are plenty of places where to troll.
go there, this is a genuine aggregation place that stands around a magnificient "Encyclopedia of war" like Command it is.(IMO).

P.s. Sorry for my poor english

[LordFlashheart]

Its an interesting question.

Perhaps one justification or moral argument might be made that in putting high-fidelity simulation tools in the hands of military/defence industrial professionals - is it in fact the case that full-on high-intensity, state on state war might be less likely - after gaming the virtual carnage that results?

Ie: if you were to purchase X no of copies for your staff college/naval/air force academy and then your students found that your shiny airforce/navy could be wiped out in a few hours by todays precision weapons - would that make for a generation of leaders who as well as knowing the human cost of war, would also have more statistics/evidence on hand to say one day: "Mr/Madame President/Prime Minister - I really don't think that is a good idea. And I can prove it".

[mikmykWS]

We're not going to do anything with this. Reading your last post tells me it probably isn't our business what your problems are.

My suggestion to others is to stop responding.

Mike

[Sensei.Tokugawa]

I guess that wasn't the answer you counted on perhaps, but that's another story. In fact I wasn't going to discuss ANY of MY problems, but raise a problem I see and get to know what people think. Judging by sheer volume of emotions involved and the like it seems like theere is something on the point no matter how hard we try to skip that.

@ LordFlashheart - you're making an interesting contribution and I guess that would be a scenario to follow, but it doesn't take Kubrick and "Dr. Strangelove" to know that the military and the politicians alike have their own agenda which is not often governed by reason and by calculation rather quite often and when the result is not what it's supposed to be it gets disregarded. I mean Cuban Crisis ending was the victory of reason to a certain extent, in case of the Vietnam War the reason didn't prevail. After I read Hughes' "Fleet Tactics" now I am reading about the operational level of the naval warfare and in the current chapter the author describes how the WWI lessons were completely forgotten by the Brits, Americans and the Japanese - but not by the Germans.

@renders - here's something for you; "Jurassic Park", Dennis Nedry to John Hammond yet before the dino crisis:

" - Thanks dad."

Did you learn everythig from your papa? - the question Beavis & Butthead from the MTV show were once asked by a fellow cartoon character. A childish example, a childish reply.

@Mikmyk - honestly thank you. Whatever.

[mikmykWS]

He has not responded to my offer of a pm and he's dismissing anybody's response that actually works in the business.

We won't demand it but it would be great if you could take responses private. There is no evidence he wants this to be constructive.

Thanks

Mike

[thewood1]

That was my point from the beginning. Did anyone really thing this would end differently. There is a reason there is a general discussion and political discussions are frowned upon. This forum is one of the few wargaming forum that hasn't devolved into political bickering. Go do that crap on the general forum.

[Sensei.Tokugawa]

Alright, so now I have become "him", typical techique of silencing the discourse and I know what I am saying as I have studied that and did a research on critical discourse analysis. It does apply apparently.

@mikmyk - you asked me about my job career, I have answered in a great lenght, much greater than I allow myself in the net for a couple of obvious reasons only to get to know that "my problems are not your problems" like I hadn't known that. I guess the answer wasn't the one you counted on indeed.

What would I need to discuss with you in private? I am not interested in the corporate approach since the reasons for which people do this or that for money and / or because they like are quite the same all the time - the money and / or because they like it. Much the way I don't know or care or am interested in who the company employees are in private and personally. Would you reply my inquiry then anyway? I don't think you give me a fair judgement.

What I was interested in was the community opinion on the subject I described in the initial post and a few people I can point to did manage to answer to that - without ranting & raving and attaching any negative emotional value then carrying on to look down on me.

Finally - being constructive is sticking to the point here so where's that evidence? See - that's the point; the discussion is being turned into a discussion about discussion, contrary to my intentions. That is not constructive indeed so I have been avoiding that. I wasn't even using any moral labels like "moral", "ethical". I was asking thewood1 if he's corporate not because I was interested in a corporate answer, but because being a corporate dictates the answer to a great degree, even in private. Again - CDA; critical discourse analysis principles.

@thewood1 - in language everything is political as each statement is made because of a certain point of view. The lack of an answer is often an answer itself just like there is verbal and non-verbal communication - certain reactions tell more than mere words, fierce opposition that is surfacing here is quite verbal anyway which makes me think there is something on the subject raised. You have suddenlly acquired courage to reply, but no nothing new to add unfortunately.

[mikmykWS]

ORIGINAL: burroughs

Alright, so now I have become "him", typical techique of silencing the discourse and I know what I am saying as I have studied that and did a research on critical discourse analysis. It does apply apparently.

There is no him or anybody out to silence discourse. There are just people on here that like to talk about the game they play and develop because it's fun. My experience is they push back when they find a topic not fun or annoying. If I had any ill will I would have gladly invited everybody to take a swing [:D]

@mikmyk - you asked me about my job career, I have answered in a great lenght, much greater than I allow myself in the net for a couple of obvious reasons only to get to know that "my problems are not your problems" like I hadn't known that. I guess the answer wasn't the one you counted on indeed.

What would I need to discuss with you in private? I am not interested in the corporate approach since the reasons for which people do this or that for money and / or because they like are quite the same all the time - the money and / or because they like it. Much the way I don't know or care or am interested in who the company employees are in private and personally. Would you reply my inquiry then anyway? I don't think you give me a fair judgement.

War game developers and companies don't tend to have a typical suit and tie corporate culture and it is not all about the money although it's fair to say they want a return on their investment in time and effort. To a large extent developing war games is a skill job that does require a lot of creativity. I would dare claim it is an art. So I think the picture you're painting of us is misinformed.

What I was interested in was the community opinion on the subject I described in the initial post and a few people I can point to did manage to answer to that - without ranting & raving and attaching any negative emotional value then carrying on to look down on me.

Nobody is looking down on you. They just don't agree with you.

Finally - being constructive is sticking to the point here so where's that evidence? See - that's the point; the discussion is being turned into a discussion about discussion, contrary to my intentions. That is not constructive indeed so I have been avoiding that. I wasn't even using any moral labels like "moral", "ethical". I was asking thewood1 if he's corporate not because I was interested in a corporate answer, but because being a corporate dictates the answer to a great degree, even in private. Again - CDA; critical discourse analysis principles.

You seem very preoccupied with a corporate culture that to my knowledge doesn't really exist in the war game niche.

I would suggest pursuing this somewhere else where people will be more engaged. My guess is the wood is here to have fun and talk about Command. That is likely the goal of most of other posters as well.