The Italian Spear

[warspite1]

(cont. from Post 96)

While German troops are busy overrunning Vichy units in what remains of Metropolitan France, German troops earmarked for Operation Felix are heading at full speed for Spain. Hitler has ordered two Panzer Divisions, two Infantry Divisions, a Mountain Division, seven artillery regiments and an A.A regiment to the border for the purposes of taking the Rock and ensuring that any potential Allied encroachment in Portugal can be covered off. Luftwaffe units are on their way too.

Meanwhile the twenty-two badly equipped and understrength Spanish divisions are placed on high alert. Spanish artillery begin the task of shelling the British positions in Gibraltar; given the state of the Spanish rail system, it will be four weeks before the German units can reach the battlezone…..

In the air the Spanish air force launch a desultory raid - more for show - against ships in the harbour, but these are chased away for the loss of two aircraft by a squadron of Hurricanes.

In North Africa and elsewhere, the news of Hitler's betrayal is met with a mixture of anger and disbelief. Without exception the Vichy authorities - from Algeria to Syria, and from Tunisia to New Caledonia - declare war on Germany and allegiance, in line with Petain's wishes, to De Gaulle. Petain, Darlan and even Laval (who have now served their purpose to the Reich) are placed under arrest and are not seen again.

How will the British use the time available before the Germans arrive? How much of the French fleet will escape Toulon?

[Centuur]

In that case, it looks to me the Suner-Ribbentrop pact is again something which might happen, with Vichy still existing and French North Africa getting Spanish Peacekeepers after Mers-el-kebir...

I think that is a realistic situation directly after the British attack...

I don't see any reason, why Vichy would not agree to this at that very moment.

Of course, I don't believe Franco himself would ever have DoW'ed the Allies. He was highly intelligent and quite logical thinking. He didn't believe in an Axis victory from the start of WW II at all. He was interested in only one thing: to make sure that he stayed in power in Spain. He didn't do anything wrong there, did he?

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Centuur

In that case, it looks to me the Suner-Ribbentrop pact is again something which might happen, with Vichy still existing and French North Africa getting Spanish Peacekeepers after Mers-el-kebir...

I think that is a realistic situation directly after the British attack...

I don't see any reason, why Vichy would not agree to this at that very moment.

Of course, I don't believe Franco himself would ever have DoW'ed the Allies. He was highly intelligent and quite logical thinking. He didn't believe in an Axis victory from the start of WW II at all. He was interested in only one thing: to make sure that he stayed in power in Spain. He didn't do anything wrong there, did he?

warspite1

Well as always in life there are two schools of thought. But the evidence - speeches, writings, cabinet minutes and above all, actions, all point to the fact that Franco hoped for and firmly believed in a German victory from day 1. Indeed he only realistically gave up on the hope on D-Day!

Serrano signed the Protocol agreed at Hendaye and if Hitler had said yes Spain would have been in the war like a shot. It was only Hitler, needing to keep Vichy on side (and fearing the amount of reliance the Spanish would place on Germany), that stopped him agreeing to Franco's demands.

Have a look at what Spain did during 1939-44:

- Bases for refuelling and replenishment of U-boats
- Allowing companies to be set up to send supplies to North Africa under neutral flag
- Plans drawn up for the attack on Gibraltar
- The Spanish Blue Division
- Read his speech upon hearing of Barbarossa....
- Allowing re-supply missions for German troops cut off along the French coast as late as 1944
- Exports for vital material - Wolfram (Tungsten) chief amongst them, but also Iron ore and other important resources
- The setting up of intelligence facilities in Spain and Tangiers

Despite the fact that the British (and Americans) were providing the fuel and the food that actually stopped the country from starving, Franco continued to allow the things above.

Make no mistake, Franco was a fascist dictator who believed firmly that it was only a matter of choosing the right time for Spain to enter the war - not if they would enter. He hated France and Britain for perceived injustices of the past (and France for their emnity during the Civil War).

Franco wanted nothing more than to join the war.

One other point. Countries accepting 'Peace-Keepers'on their soil is a rare thing as in many cases - this being one - it would be obvious that they are anything but......

[Centuur]

Sure he did. No doubt about that. He did support his German and Italian friends. He did draw up plans. He did allow for a volunteer division to fight the Communists (for that should be eradicated if you are a good fascist dictator).

But all those actions comes back on one thing: he made his demands for entering the war on the Axis side absurdly high. I can't imagine that he thought that Germany would ever agree to those terms. And if so: I don't believe for a minute that he thought that Germany and Italy would be able to conquer all territories he asked for joining the war.

He was very, very smart. He always supported the Axis, because it was what was expected from a fascist government. Expected not only by Germany and Italy, but also by his own clique in Madrid and the population of the country. Expected even by the CW and the USA, I believe.
On the other hand, he bribed the CW and the US by sending him the necessary supplies so that he wasn't going to DoW the CW.

Now, I call that the acts of a very smart and intelligent man.

If Germany would have marched over the Tower Bridge in London or on the Red Square in Moscow, I think Franco would have entered the war at that moment. But not before (unless the German would give him all territories and the goods he needed, which is questionable due to the enormous territory he asked for).

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Centuur

Sure he did. No doubt about that. He did support his German and Italian friends. He did draw up plans. He did allow for a volunteer division to fight the Communists (for that should be eradicated if you are a good fascist dictator).

But all those actions comes back on one thing: he made his demands for entering the war on the Axis side absurdly high. I can't imagine that he thought that Germany would ever agree to those terms. And if so: I don't believe for a minute that he thought that Germany and Italy would be able to conquer all territories he asked for joining the war.

He was very, very smart. He always supported the Axis, because it was what was expected from a fascist government. Expected not only by Germany and Italy, but also by his own clique in Madrid and the population of the country. Expected even by the CW and the USA, I believe.
On the other hand, he bribed the CW and the US by sending him the necessary supplies so that he wasn't going to DoW the CW.

Now, I call that the acts of a very smart and intelligent man.

Now, if Germany would have marched over the Tower Bridge in London or on the Red Square in Moscow, I think Franco would have entered the war at that moment. But not before (unless the German would give him all territories and the goods he needed, which is questionable due to the enormous territory he asked for).

warspite1

They were not absurdly high. I think the position of Spain post the Civil War is not really appreciated.

The country was absolutely $%^&ed.

The requests were not high as in greedy - they were high as in genuine:

- WE GENUINELY HAVE NO FOOD!
- WE HAVE NO AIR FORCE, WE HAVE NO NAVY WORTH THE NAME, WE HAVE NO ARMOURED VEHICLES, WE HAVE FEW HEAVY WEAPONS, WE HAVE NO TANKS
- WE HAVE NO OIL

Now, if I am to sell a war (that I am itching for) to a people that have been involved in brutal war for the last 3-years, I am going to:

a) ensure I can fight back if the Allies land in Portugal or Spanish Morocco
b) I am going to ensure my people don't starve
c) like any self respecting dictator I am going to get what I can in territorial gains first (unlike that prize schmuck Mussolini)

The only territory that the Germans/Spanish would not be able to reach quickly would be in Equitorial Africa. If he did not believe that Hitler could not take Gibraltar, and then, with control of the straits, cross to French Morocco and Algeria, then he wasn't joining the Axis anyway. The fact that Hitler tells Petain its all over is all the proof he needs that Hitler is for real.

Note: if I stick to the letter of Franco's demands then EVEN THIS scenario doesn't work as the demands were up front. May be now we can see why Hitler took the action he did in real life [:)]

[warspite1]

Not sure I agree on the 'Franco was smart' idea either.

He was a bit of a thicky really.

Apparently he was desperate - even in 1944 - for a German victory as he did not think he and his regime could survive a German defeat. This shows a distinct lack of intelligence bearing in mind he had let Hitler down by not joining the war.

One thing that does appear certain was that he and his regime would not have survived a German victory; Hitler would have him replaced at the earliest opportunity - and Franco was too dim to see this.....

[brian brian]

ORIGINAL: Centuur

If Germany would have marched over the Tower Bridge in London or on the Red Square in Moscow

I've always wanted to be able to play the game with a dynamic political system for the Minor Countires during General War. Days of Decision made for some fascinating alternate starts to the 39ish-45 campaign game, but once General War starts, the status of most Minors is locked in place.

An obvious way to do that would depend on the changing control of objective hexes in the game.

The last Annual from ADG had the beginnings of such a system, but it seemed like it just allowed a few more options to be played into the first year or so of General War and trailed off a little after that, if I recall correctly. My copy ended up at a house with the space to set up World in Flames and I haven't seen it in many years.

[rkr1958]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Not sure I agree on the 'Franco was smart' idea either.

He was a bit of a thicky really.

Apparently he was desperate - even in 1944 - for a German victory as he did not think he and his regime could survive a German defeat. This shows a distinct lack of intelligence bearing in mind he had let Hitler down by not joining the war.

One thing that does appear certain was that he and his regime would not have survived a German victory; Hitler would have him replaced at the earliest opportunity - and Franco was too dim to see this.....

As a teenager I remember the SNL skits by Chevy Chase on Generalissimo Franco. Here's the one announcing his death. I remember watching this skit live ...

https://screen.yahoo.com/death-franco-000000128.html

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: rkr1958

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Not sure I agree on the 'Franco was smart' idea either.

He was a bit of a thicky really.

Apparently he was desperate - even in 1944 - for a German victory as he did not think he and his regime could survive a German defeat. This shows a distinct lack of intelligence bearing in mind he had let Hitler down by not joining the war.

One thing that does appear certain was that he and his regime would not have survived a German victory; Hitler would have him replaced at the earliest opportunity - and Franco was too dim to see this.....

As a teenager I remember the SNL skits by Chevy Chase on Generalissimo Franco. Here's the one announcing his death. I remember watching this skit live ...

https://screen.yahoo.com/death-franco-000000128.html

warspite1

Not available [:(]

[Orm]

I have no idea how smart Franco was or not. But so far I have thought that Franco, and the Spanish leadership, wanted to keep Spain out of the war without making AH pissed. So saying "no" to AH was out of the question.

I further think that Spain expected a US entry into the war and that Spain really wanted to avoid a war with US.

So in order to stay out Spain had to say 'no' to Germany without saying no. They had to show enough support for Axis so that they were not attacked but not so much so that they were seen as part of the Axis. Not an easy task.

[rkr1958]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: rkr1958

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Not sure I agree on the 'Franco was smart' idea either.

He was a bit of a thicky really.

Apparently he was desperate - even in 1944 - for a German victory as he did not think he and his regime could survive a German defeat. This shows a distinct lack of intelligence bearing in mind he had let Hitler down by not joining the war.

One thing that does appear certain was that he and his regime would not have survived a German victory; Hitler would have him replaced at the earliest opportunity - and Franco was too dim to see this.....

As a teenager I remember the SNL skits by Chevy Chase on Generalissimo Franco. Here's the one announcing his death. I remember watching this skit live ...

https://screen.yahoo.com/death-franco-000000128.html

warspite1

Not available [:(]

Uhm ... the link works for me when I click on it?

[warspite1]

You may be right but if so then a) Franco had the most remarkable foresight and b) he was a very peculiar type of fascist dictator.
Taking these in reverse order:

Franco believed in a resurgent Spain – a Spain restored to its rightful place as the first ranking power it had been around the 15th and 16th Centuries. For this, as with Mussolini’s Italy, Hitler provided the perfect opportunity of a quick win with little effort. The idea that Franco made a conscious decision to pass up on such a golden chance of expanding Spain’s empire is difficult to believe given the other evidence.

Personally, I set more store by the words of Pedro Teotonio Pereira, who was close to the action as the Portuguese Ambassador to Spain. In 1940 he wrote to Prime Minister Salazar:

Beyond doubt Spain continues to hate the Allies. There are few who rise above this resentment…..sadly things are working out in such a way that it is not easy to convince them that Germany will not win this war. When one talks to reasonable people about the advantages of neutrality they will always mutter “Yes, we cannot make war, we are ill prepared”. Therefore they do not judge the war to be infamous, but judge themselves in a bad position to take part. If your excellency were to ask me how many sense the danger of German hegemony, I would have to answer they are rarer than a four leaf clover. In such regard, the instinct for survival, Catholic faith or Latin spirit is drowned by hatred for England and for France.

Franco was worried about US involvement - that is true. But who realistically was seeing anything but a German victory with each passing month: Poland, Norway, Denmark, Holland, Belgium – and of course the big one - the total defeat of France in six weeks and the ejection of the British Army (minus its equipment) from the continent.

I could buy the ‘Franco was playing a game to appease Hitler and keep Spain out of the war’ line if it was supported by the facts but:

- Franco did not ask the impossible of Germany. Those requests were in the power of Hitler to give (less Equitorial Guinea). The point is Franco only asked what he needed AND what Hitler could have agreed.
- Franco’s attitude toward America (in particular) and the UK was not in line with someone playing a clever game, the evidence does not support this, i.e. long after Germany had no chance of winning the war, long after Hitler had no chance of attacking Spain, Franco continued to provide assistance to the Germans.
- This assistance came at the price of risking an embargo by the US. One thing practically guaranteed for him to be overthrown was a famine of his causing. Every cessation of help for Germany was like pulling teeth.
- This stance - that made less sense as German defeat followed German defeat, with the Allies landing in North Africa, with Italy out of the war – was potentially disastrous for Franco as every Allied power started to break off relations. Why would he do that?

Therefore I firmly believe Franco wanted nothing more than to join the war, but was genuinely in need of assistance to do so. If that assistance had been granted, Spain would have put the secret protocol into effect and joined the Axis as a full ally.

Franco was saved thanks to the Cold War and the need for an anti-communist Spain. The myth was thus created about how Franco kept Hitler at bay and did the Allies such a massive favour. The truth, at least in my mind, is very different……

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: rkr1958

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: rkr1958



As a teenager I remember the SNL skits by Chevy Chase on Generalissimo Franco. Here's the one announcing his death. I remember watching this skit live ...

https://screen.yahoo.com/death-franco-000000128.html

warspite1

Not available [:(]

Uhm ... the link works for me when I click on it?

warspite1

Yes but you are not in the UK.....

[Orm]

- Franco did not ask the impossible of Germany

Asking the impossible would be almost the same as telling AH to go and drown himself. Pretty suicidal if you ask me.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Orm

- Franco did not ask the impossible of Germany

Asking the impossible would be almost the same as telling AH to go and drown himself. Pretty suicidal if you ask me.

warspite1

There is asking the impossible and asking the impossible. He could have inflated the request far more so as to be, for all intents and purposes, impossible. Asking what he did, ran the risk of Hitler simply saying okay - and where was his 'great game plan' then?

But if this was Franco's 'great game' then why the action to the detriment of the Allies long after Hitler was effectively defeated?

Franco had no certainty that instead of historic Torch, the Allies would choose Spanish Torch? He was playing with fire and the more he wilfully choose to hack off the US, the more chance Spain stood of being invaded. Why take that chance?

[Orm]

-Spain, and Franco, had a mixed relation to US. It was not that long ago that Spain had lost a war with US. But after that the relations had improved and the US trade was important to Spain.

-US had also provided important support for the Nationalists in the Civil War. "without American petroleum and American trucks, and American credit, we could never have won the Civil War." - José María Doussinague

I think that Franco had little to gain from joining the war with Spain and would have risked much. Also, Franco had just witnessed how AH 'rewarded' Italy for joining the war.

Later on the US ambassador in Spain also seem to have played a significant part in keeping Spain out of the war.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Orm

-Spain, and Franco, had a mixed relation to US. It was not that long ago that Spain had lost a war with US. But after that the relations had improved and the US trade was important to Spain.

-US had also provided important support for the Nationalists in the Civil War. "without American petroleum and American trucks, and American credit, we could never have won the Civil War." - José María Doussinague

I think that Franco had little to gain from joining the war with Spain and would have risked much. Also, Franco had just witnessed how AH 'rewarded' Italy for joining the war.

Later on the US ambassador in Spain also seem to have played a significant part in keeping Spain out of the war.

warspite1

Exactly my point!

So the question remains. If Franco is playing a 'game' to keep out of the war, but keep Hitler on side why is he:

- continuing assistance for Hitler - to the detriment of the Allies - long after Hitler is an irrelevance?

- why is he running the risk that the US embargoes Spain?

- Why is he running the risk that, in order to stop this assistance (and at the same time launch a second front) the Allies invade Spain?

His actions do not make sense.

[Orm]

During this discussion I can not help to think about the Swedish position during the war and what actions that were taken. Many today claim that much of what was done was in order to help Axis and that Swedish leaders wanted Germany to win. Personally I think that is hogwash and that the Swedish leaders did what they had to do in order to stay out of it. That might be the reason why I think as I do about the Spanish position.

Sweden had to juggle Stalin, AH and the Western Allies at the same time. Quite a balance act if you ask me.

[Orm]

- continuing assistance for Hitler - to the detriment of the Allies - long after Hitler is an irrelevance?

I do not know how long that Spain perceived AH as a threat. But Sweden saw AH as a threat until sometime during '44.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Orm

During this discussion I can not help to think about the Swedish position during the war and what actions that were taken. Many today claim that much of what was done was in order to help Axis and that Swedish leaders wanted Germany to win. Personally I think that is hogwash and that the Swedish leaders did what they had to do in order to stay out of it. That might be the reason why I think as I do about the Spanish position.

Sweden had to juggle Stalin, AH and the Western Allies at the same time. Quite a balance act if you ask me.

warspite1

I quite agree - and its easy to make pronouncements on smaller countries that did what they could to stay out of the war from our comfy 21st century armchairs.

But I would not consider the actions of Sweden comparable to Spain. Spain was not a fascist dictatorship. Sweden, as far as I am aware, did not have claims on other country's territory, did not harbour designs for empire, did not slaughter over 55,000 of its citizens it didn't like, its government did not make speeches praising the Nazis and Hitler, did not make obvious to the world which side they wanted to win the war. Not to mention of course, they never stated to Hitler, if you give us X we will join the war on your side. I do not think the two are in any way shape or form comparable. With Norway and Denmark occupied by the Germans, and with Finland menaced by the Soviet Union, and with Germany all powerful, Sweden can be forgiven for playing a careful game.

It can be argued that, unlike say WWI, the absolute need to rid the world of Hitler makes the actions of neutral countries - not sure of the word here? selfish? After all, why should certain countries get away scot free while others paid through the nose to rid the world of a hideous monster? But that is another question entirely...