The Italian Spear

[warspite1]

While we are talking about Sweden and Spain. Look at what Sweden did towards the end of the war about the Jews - and have a look at Spain. I would not call Spain actively anti-semitic but unlike Sweden they didn't actively help the situation. Raoul Wallenberg paid for his help with his life.

[Orm]

It can be argued that, unlike say WWI, the absolute need to rid the world of Hitler makes the actions of neutral countries - not sure of the word here? selfish? After all, why should certain countries get away scot free while others paid through the nose to rid the world of a hideous monster? But that is another question entirely...

Since I knew to little on this subject in regards of Spain I looked it up on wiki, and if that page is correct, it looks to me that Spain did something.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain_and ... r_refugees

[Orm]

Anyway. I am not sure why we are arguing or what we are arguing about. I feel we are mostly in agreement and, as far as I know, no one knows what went on in the main participants heads.

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With Vichy created it was a long shot to get Spain to join and AH was not interested anyway.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Orm

Anyway. I am not sure why we are arguing or what we are arguing about. I feel we are mostly in agreement and, as far as I know, no one knows what went on in the main participants heads.

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With Vichy created it was a long shot to get Spain to join and AH was not interested anyway.

warspite1

I didn't think we were arguing - just exchanging views.

[Orm]

Okie. [:)]

You might even have changed my view. [:D]

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Orm

It can be argued that, unlike say WWI, the absolute need to rid the world of Hitler makes the actions of neutral countries - not sure of the word here? selfish? After all, why should certain countries get away scot free while others paid through the nose to rid the world of a hideous monster? But that is another question entirely...

Since I knew to little on this subject in regards of Spain I looked it up on wiki, and if that page is correct, it looks to me that Spain did something.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain_and ... r_refugees

warspite1

Yes, Spain did something. In the context of what she could have done given her neutral status and given the Sephardic Jews situation, she could have done a whole lot more. And towards the end of the war, when Wallenberg was doing his stuff - the work done by "Spain" was actually done by a brave Italian named Giorgio Perlasca.

[Orm]

I really need to read up on the Spanish Civil War. It is just that the books on the subject that I have are so hard to read. [:(]

At the moment I need easy stuff. [:D]

The books you read about Vichy and Spain during WWII seems awesome but I suspect that it is heavy stuff. [:(] [:D]

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Orm

I really need to read up on the Spanish Civil War. It is just that the books on the subject that I have are so hard to read. [:(]

At the moment I need easy stuff. [:D]

The books you read about Vichy and Spain during WWII seems awesome but I suspect that it is heavy stuff. [:(] [:D]

warspite1

I don't know about you but I find some authors are just toooooo difficult to read.

I thoroughly recommend the Payne book. The Paxton book on Vichy was good - although was a bit of a hard slog at times. Next up its Operation Torch!

[brian brian]

ORIGINAL: Orm

I really need to read up on the Spanish Civil War. It is just that the books on the subject that I have are so hard to read. [:(]

At the moment I need easy stuff. [:D]

The books you read about Vichy and Spain during WWII seems awesome but I suspect that it is heavy stuff. [:(] [:D]

You could try Hemmingway's "For Whom the Bell Tolls" - it is a little lighter than non-fiction history, but heavier than some other fiction.




I read some of the basics of the Hendaye meeting the other day. I thought it was pretty telling that German approaches to Spain didn't start until later in September 1940 - after the Battle of Britain was lost. I think when considering the time frames of the diplomacy with Spain it is important to recall each military event in the conflict. I never get a sense that Hitler could figure out just what to do about the West opposing his desire to expand to the East. The defeat of France happened almost too fast for the Germans, and their loose cannon of an ally in Mussolini steadily muddied the picture. So Hitler fell back on his dream of The East but things only got worse in 1941 - who could dream that anyone in the West would take Stalin's side?

This occurs often in the game; players just start out, excited to set up and command all these interesting counters and to decide which ones to make more of. They know the basics of history and start to follow that a little, without enough focus on a decided strategy. When the Chaos of War inevitably happens, they flounder, even while all those interesting counters are still pretty strong, and start to play tactically, impulse by impulse, instead of strategically, year by year. Just like Hitler.

[Courtenay]

ORIGINAL: brian brian

ORIGINAL: Centuur

If Germany would have marched over the Tower Bridge in London or on the Red Square in Moscow

I've always wanted to be able to play the game with a dynamic political system for the Minor Countires during General War. Days of Decision made for some fascinating alternate starts to the 39ish-45 campaign game, but once General War starts, the status of most Minors is locked in place.

If one wants to have wildly different neutral actions, that is a different game; either Days of Decision or Totaler Krieg.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: brian brian

ORIGINAL: Orm

I really need to read up on the Spanish Civil War. It is just that the books on the subject that I have are so hard to read. [:(]

At the moment I need easy stuff. [:D]

The books you read about Vichy and Spain during WWII seems awesome but I suspect that it is heavy stuff. [:(] [:D]

I read some of the basics of the Hendaye meeting the other day. I thought it was pretty telling that German approaches to Spain didn't start until later in September 1940 - after the Battle of Britain was lost.

warspite1

This comes back to my earlier comment "If you are travelling from New York to Los Angeles, why fly via Buenos Aires?". If you want the UK out of the war, attack the UK....

I agree, the speed of the French collapse caught out everyone. When Hitler's "peace offer" in July was ignored by Britain, Hitler realised he had to take the UK out. But how? The obvious way was by defeating the UK directly - and the 'Fat One' told Hitler he would destroy the RAF within weeks - thus enabling a Sealion.

Only when this turned into something of a shambles and the Luftwaffe was seriously weakened, did Hitler show any interest in Franco's initial correspondence (started in June). Note for those who believe Franco was playing a game and never intended to join the Axis, it was Franco who started correspondence - not the other way around.

Mussolini was a complication - but Hitler is hardly blameless here. Mussolini wanted to fight his own parallel war* and Hitler, despite surely suspecting how poor the Italian armed forces were, was prepared for Italy to take care of its sphere - the Mediterranean. Whoops....

* Note the similarity with Franco. Franco was insistent that it was Spanish troops that would take Gibraltar.

[brian brian]

That all goes back to why World in Flames was designed to be a multi-player game, not a 2 player game. The devastating "Italian Luftwaffe dominates Barbarossa" strategy in the game would NEVER have happened in real life either. Ironic that the hypothetical conquest of a near Fascist client state might well have achieved Mussolini's war aims for the Italian Spear - linking the Italian colonies in Africa. If only he hadn't been so dumb as to try and throw the spear at two targets at the same time (Greece & Egypt). So much strategic FAIL in WWII.


Franco was lucky he was so far from Stalin...Stalin's first item of business at Potsdam was designing a punishing conquest of Spain for it's various Axis flirtations. Truman & Churchill refused any more war. And then the Cold War slowly worked to Franco's advantage.

[Centuur]

Of course Franco started the correspondence early june 1940. Look at what just happened in France. France wants peace, and Franco wants territory. However, when the talks really started, the CW had won the Battle of Britain, thus changing the scenery a lot. I bet Franco believed that Hitler would be visiting Buckingham Palace in september the moment he did write his first letter in june. He wasn't the only one in the world who thought that might be the case at that time.

And how could Franco stop supporting the two countries who did send so much aid to get him into power? It was in his darkest days, when Germany and Italy came to the rescue. So I understand completely why Spain continued to give aid to Germany far into 1944.

And yes: Spain could have done more for the Jews. However, that's something which could be said for more countries. Almost all western European countries closed their borders for refugees (mostly Jews) from Germany in 1938-1939. The Swiss kept their borders closed during most of the war for all refugees and did send Jews even back at the border...

The letter of the Portuguese Ambassador in Spain is correct. Spain would have joined the Axis, if they had been ready for war. However, Spain isn't ready and Franco knows it.

So, there are the demands. He knows that they are impossible for Germany to deliver (Equitorial Guinee). Conclusion: Spain stays out of the war...

[warspite1]

Okay, I think we shall agree to disagree on this one [:)].

I don't think that the Jewish situation in 1938-39 is comparable to what was known in 1945.

[Jagdtiger14]

Days of Decision 3 is an awesome game! I highly recommend it! The only problem with taking your position and going beyond it and into WiF is that unless you can hold everyone to it, most people will not take a disadvantaged position than what was historical.

[Jagdtiger14]

If this hypothetical discussion goes further, do the Germans reach Gibraltar by the end of August? And when they do, are the CW still there?

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

If this hypothetical discussion goes further, do the Germans reach Gibraltar by the end of August? And when they do, are the CW still there?

warspite1

The German troops required to take The Rock will be there in early August. The aircraft can be there sooner. Does Franco realise the reality of the situation i.e. that his troops cannot conquer Gibraltar on their own and that they need German help? How quickly can the Luftwaffe be up and running?

Once German units and aircraft are in place, I would think Gibraltar falls pretty quickly, but given Franco's stated plan - that Spanish units take The Rock, does he go off all premature pending the Germans getting there and giving the British some morale boosting early victories?

[Jagdtiger14]

I think its critical that CW destroy everything possible before German ground troops get there...including land and sea mines, booby traps, etc... I wouldn't put the mistake (in my opinion) of victory disease on the CW after they spank the Spanish, which is what would happen.

Would Franco attack Gibraltar? How can he not know that he doesn't have the tools? Your write up on the RAF slapping the Spanish air would be what would have happened, after that it would at least dawn on Franco that he needs the Germans...and the Germans would advise Franco to not to do it, and forget about the Luftwaffe assisting the Spanish going in all half-cocked. Does Franco listen?...what would his personality tell us he would do?

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

I think its critical that CW destroy everything possible before German ground troops get there...including land and sea mines, booby traps, etc... I wouldn't put the mistake (in my opinion) of victory disease on the CW after they spank the Spanish, which is what would happen.

Would Franco attack Gibraltar? How can he not know that he doesn't have the tools? Your write up on the RAF slapping the Spanish air would be what would have happened, after that it would at least dawn on Franco that he needs the Germans...and the Germans would advise Franco to not to do it, and forget about the Luftwaffe assisting the Spanish going in all half-cocked. Does Franco listen?...what would his personality tell us he would do?

warspite1

How could Mussolini not know he had nothing like the tools required to invade Egypt or Greece? how could Churchill not realise the force he sent to Norway was grossly inadequate? how could Stalin not know the plan for Finland was junk? How did Yammamoto not know the 'plan' for Midway was total and utter toilet?

Sometimes ideas seem like good ones at the time, sometimes hubris gets in the way, sometimes desperation takes over, sometimes people are just elevated to the wrong positions, sometimes the capabilities of your enemy get dismissed.

Re Franco as a military leader? I know the Germans were critical of everyone - the Italians, the Romanians etc. But the reports that came back during the Civil War were to the effect that the guy was out of his depth at large-scale operations - he was a battalion commander!

Beevor states in the Battle for Spain, that Franco did not so much win the war, the Republicans lost it.

Add military shortcomings to national pride and......

[brian brian]

If you make the Germans nimble enough to enter Spain in July 1940 and put them in front of Gibraltar in early August, the place is toast and the exact details are a little irrelevant to the grand strategy of WWII. Spain may have been in a rickety situation but the Germans had experience fighting in the country and Spain had plenty of people with a serious hatred for England, both in the government and in military command. A few desultory Spanish attacks not working before the Luftwaffe shows up wouldn't really change anything. But Stukas and Me-109s in range of the Straits closes them definitively.

The Germans held the initiative in July, pretty dramatically. The British were scrambling to re-arm enough soldiers to patrol the beaches of Kent and working feverishly to prevent another Rotterdam in London or elsewhere.

More important is that Italy didn't invade Egypt until September nor Greece until late October. But Mers-el-Kebir would have already happened. Give the Axis Gibraltar in August or September 1940 and I don't think anything much happens as a result until 1941. The Kriegsmarine is just ramping up to exploit access to Brittany; access to Spain in 1940 wouldn't gain them much for several months I would think. A great deal of diplomatic confusion on what relations the curious new country of 'Vichy France' will have with all of the warring countries, definitely. The Royal Navy would have to make a snap decision on where to send the nascent units of what would soon become Force H - the Flag Officer at Gibraltar at this time was eventually sacked for allowing a squadron of Vichy cruisers to transit the straits on their way to West Africa = confusion on the British side as well.

Luftwaffe deployments into southern Spain would weaken resources available for a Battle of Britain, definitely = The RAF still wins it. What would the Axis attempt after such a dramatic coup as this? That's why we play the game.