Opinion on Fighters that "Could Have" entered service earlier

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: wdolson

These things are so dependent on so many factors there are very few examples of aircraft that could have been realistically advanced.

Bill

+1

(on the allied side in general, US specifically)

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: wdolson

Grumman considered a super Hellcat but didn't propose it to the Navy because it would have competed with the F8F. It would have had performance approaching the FG-2.

There was no perceived need for the F8F until 1943. The Long Island was an experiment without much of a real role when it was built. Then the Battle of the Atlantic demonstrated a need for air cover for convoys which led to the mass construction of CVEs. Initially CVEs were intended to escort convoys outside the range of most enemy aircraft. Most aircraft convoys encountered in the Atlantic were long range aircraft without fighter escort and Wildcats were completely suitable for that job.

Only when the idea came up to use CVEs to cover invasion TFs in the Pacific did Wildcats' obsolescence come to the fore. As a stopgap the FM-2 was built which gave the old Wildcat a bit more capability and then the F8F program was launched as a longer term solution.

The Navy didn't really realize it needed the F8F until shortly before the program started.

These things are so dependent on so many factors there are very few examples of aircraft that could have been realistically advanced.

Bill

Bill, I still think that the F8F could have been accelerated faster / sooner than it was IRL. If there was a perceived need (and there was) and a logistics champion (which there probably wasn't) it could have happened. Note emphasis. It's not too far a leap to envision this fighter being brought forward 6-12 months or so.

The first designs were completed in August 1943. The first prototypes didn't fly until August 1944. First deliveries in May 1945. Roughly 18 months-in the middle of the war? That's an eternity compared to some of the other products that were quicker to make it to the end users with largely off-the-shelf components.

Like so many other models of late-war ship classes, planes, armaments, and so forth, there wasn't a screaming need for them. Our central planners of the time saw the parabolic arc of the war effort descending and cancelled or did not develop many of the products they'd envisioned earlier in the war.

Could we have built the F8F faster / sooner? Yes. Was there the perceived need / demand? Probably not. We seemed to be "getting by" with what we had at that stage on the CVEs. That seemed to be good enough.

[Dili]

ORIGINAL: bartrat

TBF Avenger was at Midway [land based]. Could it have entered service earlier. But how much earlier is a good question. If you are doing a what if then having more TBF production in say April/May/June '42 is IMHO reasonable.
For the Japanese I would say having the Nakajima L2D Tabby DC-3 earlier would be reasonable, perhaps as having some pre 12/1941 production.

There was pre war prodution of Tabby if wiki is to be believed

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Showa/Nakajima_L2D

And in use on several units

[bomccarthy]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: wdolson

Grumman considered a super Hellcat but didn't propose it to the Navy because it would have competed with the F8F. It would have had performance approaching the FG-2.

There was no perceived need for the F8F until 1943. The Long Island was an experiment without much of a real role when it was built. Then the Battle of the Atlantic demonstrated a need for air cover for convoys which led to the mass construction of CVEs. Initially CVEs were intended to escort convoys outside the range of most enemy aircraft. Most aircraft convoys encountered in the Atlantic were long range aircraft without fighter escort and Wildcats were completely suitable for that job.

Only when the idea came up to use CVEs to cover invasion TFs in the Pacific did Wildcats' obsolescence come to the fore. As a stopgap the FM-2 was built which gave the old Wildcat a bit more capability and then the F8F program was launched as a longer term solution.

The Navy didn't really realize it needed the F8F until shortly before the program started.

These things are so dependent on so many factors there are very few examples of aircraft that could have been realistically advanced.

Bill

Bill, I still think that the F8F could have been accelerated faster / sooner than it was IRL. If there was a perceived need (and there was) and a logistics champion (which there probably wasn't) it could have happened. Note emphasis. It's not too far a leap to envision this fighter being brought forward 6-12 months or so.

The first designs were completed in August 1943. The first prototypes didn't fly until August 1944. First deliveries in May 1945. Roughly 18 months-in the middle of the war? That's an eternity compared to some of the other products that were quicker to make it to the end users with largely off-the-shelf components.

Like so many other models of late-war ship classes, planes, armaments, and so forth, there wasn't a screaming need for them. Our central planners of the time saw the parabolic arc of the war effort descending and cancelled or did not develop many of the products they'd envisioned earlier in the war.

Could we have built the F8F faster / sooner? Yes. Was there the perceived need / demand? Probably not. We seemed to be "getting by" with what we had at that stage on the CVEs. That seemed to be good enough.

12 months from design to prototype test flight is about as fast as you would ever see in the aviation industry. And the Navy was not about to award production orders until some flight tests were completed. Even after the first production orders were awarded in Oct 44, a crash of one of the prototypes in late 44 required a redesign of the vertical fin, fuselage and wings, and hurried changes to the new production tooling at Grumman's two plants in Bethpage. When VF-19 began receiving its airplanes in May 45, it received a mix of prototype trials aircraft and production aircraft. From a corporate manufacturing resources standpoint, Grumman was tapped out with production of the F6F and F7F (GM had long ago taken over production of the Avenger and Wildcat, but was also slated to begin producing F8Fs once the tooling was available). In all of this, tooling was the key - it takes time for the tool companies to translate the industrial plans into the thousands of dies, jigs, etc. designed specifically for the F8F, and for Grumman/GM to modify their production facilities and install the tooling. Until that happens, the aircraft would have to be handbuilt.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: bomccarthy

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: wdolson

Grumman considered a super Hellcat but didn't propose it to the Navy because it would have competed with the F8F. It would have had performance approaching the FG-2.

There was no perceived need for the F8F until 1943. The Long Island was an experiment without much of a real role when it was built. Then the Battle of the Atlantic demonstrated a need for air cover for convoys which led to the mass construction of CVEs. Initially CVEs were intended to escort convoys outside the range of most enemy aircraft. Most aircraft convoys encountered in the Atlantic were long range aircraft without fighter escort and Wildcats were completely suitable for that job.

Only when the idea came up to use CVEs to cover invasion TFs in the Pacific did Wildcats' obsolescence come to the fore. As a stopgap the FM-2 was built which gave the old Wildcat a bit more capability and then the F8F program was launched as a longer term solution.

The Navy didn't really realize it needed the F8F until shortly before the program started.

These things are so dependent on so many factors there are very few examples of aircraft that could have been realistically advanced.

Bill

Bill, I still think that the F8F could have been accelerated faster / sooner than it was IRL. If there was a perceived need (and there was) and a logistics champion (which there probably wasn't) it could have happened. Note emphasis. It's not too far a leap to envision this fighter being brought forward 6-12 months or so.

The first designs were completed in August 1943. The first prototypes didn't fly until August 1944. First deliveries in May 1945. Roughly 18 months-in the middle of the war? That's an eternity compared to some of the other products that were quicker to make it to the end users with largely off-the-shelf components.

Like so many other models of late-war ship classes, planes, armaments, and so forth, there wasn't a screaming need for them. Our central planners of the time saw the parabolic arc of the war effort descending and cancelled or did not develop many of the products they'd envisioned earlier in the war.

Could we have built the F8F faster / sooner? Yes. Was there the perceived need / demand? Probably not. We seemed to be "getting by" with what we had at that stage on the CVEs. That seemed to be good enough.

12 months from design to prototype test flight is about as fast as you would ever see in the aviation industry. And the Navy was not about to award production orders until some flight tests were completed. Even after the first production orders were awarded in Oct 44, a crash of one of the prototypes in late 44 required a redesign of the vertical fin, fuselage and wings, and hurried changes to the new production tooling at Grumman's two plants in Bethpage. When VF-19 began receiving its airplanes in May 45, it received a mix of prototype trials aircraft and production aircraft. From a corporate manufacturing resources standpoint, Grumman was tapped out with production of the F6F and F7F (GM had long ago taken over production of the Avenger and Wildcat, but was also slated to begin producing F8Fs once the tooling was available). In all of this, tooling was the key - it takes time for the tool companies to translate the industrial plans into the thousands of dies, jigs, etc. designed specifically for the F8F, and for Grumman/GM to modify their production facilities and install the tooling. Until that happens, the aircraft would have to be handbuilt.

Agreed. I can't recall any model coming online faster .... if there was, I'd love to know about it. This is in the era of artisan hand made first prototypes. 12 months to hand fabricate all of the parts of an entire aircraft and then assemble and custom fit each piece all by hand speaks to a lot focus.