Wrangling Loki - Mind_Messing (J) vs Lokasenna (A)

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: tiemanj

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

ORIGINAL: tiemanj

Sorry, a little late here:
what kind of prep did he bring here? Did he bring in any dedicated bombardments, and / or did he embed any heavies with the amphibs?

Destroyer task forces bombarded Wake for about three consecutive turns beforehand. I didn't see anything larger than a destroyer in any of the replays, and the largest warship I can find from looking through the combat report is a CVE (that ran into a mine).

No preparatory air attacks, no battleship bombardment, either separate or embedded with the amphibs.

Wow - really? I don't agree with Joc above that some minimum time of bombardments is necessary (just gives away your target) - but when you go you need BBs and tanks. DDs are fine for shooting at parked A/C, but aren't going to cause the disruption necessary to take a moderately defended fort.

To my mind, there's two ways to take an atoll. The first is the slow, deliberate approach, where you spend weeks bombing and bombarding before you land your troops. The second way is the intensive approach, where you turn up one day and hit the defenders with anything that can shoot or fly before you land your troops.

Loka tried something in-between, but his preparations were neither long enough nor intensive enough to disrupt more than a single unit.

The lack of preparatory bombardment and the high level of forts accounts for why my adjusted AV was just shy of 300. What really saved Wake was the disruption(-) and fatigue(-) rolls for the Allies at the shock attack.

[tiemanjw]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

ORIGINAL: tiemanj

ORIGINAL: mind_messing




Destroyer task forces bombarded Wake for about three consecutive turns beforehand. I didn't see anything larger than a destroyer in any of the replays, and the largest warship I can find from looking through the combat report is a CVE (that ran into a mine).

No preparatory air attacks, no battleship bombardment, either separate or embedded with the amphibs.

Wow - really? I don't agree with Joc above that some minimum time of bombardments is necessary (just gives away your target) - but when you go you need BBs and tanks. DDs are fine for shooting at parked A/C, but aren't going to cause the disruption necessary to take a moderately defended fort.

To my mind, there's two ways to take an atoll. The first is the slow, deliberate approach, where you spend weeks bombing and bombarding before you land your troops. The second way is the intensive approach, where you turn up one day and hit the defenders with anything that can shoot or fly before you land your troops.

Loka tried something in-between, but his preparations were neither long enough nor intensive enough to disrupt more than a single unit.

The lack of preparatory bombardment and the high level of forts accounts for why my adjusted AV was just shy of 300. What really saved Wake was the disruption(-) and fatigue(-) rolls for the Allies at the shock attack.

agreed - either way is viable, but if you go big and fast it needs to be big and fast.

I think the disruption is always there in an atoll invasion (ie it wasn't bad luck he got them on his combat report). That is way it is so important to make sure the defenders disruption is worse. Hence the need to go heavy.

Keep up the good work. It seems he is stalled in multiple areas and in 1944 no less.

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: tiemanj

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

ORIGINAL: tiemanj




Wow - really? I don't agree with Joc above that some minimum time of bombardments is necessary (just gives away your target) - but when you go you need BBs and tanks. DDs are fine for shooting at parked A/C, but aren't going to cause the disruption necessary to take a moderately defended fort.

To my mind, there's two ways to take an atoll. The first is the slow, deliberate approach, where you spend weeks bombing and bombarding before you land your troops. The second way is the intensive approach, where you turn up one day and hit the defenders with anything that can shoot or fly before you land your troops.

Loka tried something in-between, but his preparations were neither long enough nor intensive enough to disrupt more than a single unit.

The lack of preparatory bombardment and the high level of forts accounts for why my adjusted AV was just shy of 300. What really saved Wake was the disruption(-) and fatigue(-) rolls for the Allies at the shock attack.

agreed - either way is viable, but if you go big and fast it needs to be big and fast.

I think the disruption is always there in an atoll invasion (ie it wasn't bad luck he got them on his combat report). That is way it is so important to make sure the defenders disruption is worse. Hence the need to go heavy.

Keep up the good work. It seems he is stalled in multiple areas and in 1944 no less.

Loka is only "stalled" for as long as it takes the troops for his next invasion to get to 100 prep. I've gotten lucky. He suffered a reverse at Wake, he's held up at Saumlaki, Kusaie and Latuem and Burma is a static front, but that's just a few patches in a leaky, leaky Japanese boat.

I'm fixated on Latuem now in the hope of actually killing off some of his strength. 1944 affords few chances for Japan to counter-attack, and I want to make the most of it.

[mind_messing]

Burma, Again

So, the RTA has about 110 days left until it withdraws. That gives me to August '44.

I'm torn as to what to do in regards to Burma. In the words of the Clash, should I stay or should I go?

Advantages

- Much shorter frontlines in Thailand and the Burma panhandle.
- Closer to the major supply bases of Bangkok and Singapore.
- Much easier to supply.
- Ability to pick the best terrain for the defense.
- Much more difficult for the Allies to get that "Inchon" landing in Burma/Thailand/Sumatra.

Disadvantages

- I'll be giving up good terrain already, as well as the forts I've built. I'd leave behind rear-guards, but they don't really get the full advantage from forts.
- Giving up Rangoon essentially for nothing and lets the Allies use it as a B-29 base to burn the oil.
- Giving up Rangoon essentially for nothing and lets the Allies use it to supply a massive overland push into Thailand.
- Free base VP's for the Allies.

I think August will be my cut-off date for Burma. After that, I'd like to be able to send troops elsewhere, namely Sumatra and Malaya, and the easiest way to do that is to withdraw to Thailand and rail the excess troops south.

What does the gallery think?

[tiemanjw]

Loka is only "stalled" for as long as it takes the troops for his next invasion to get to 100 prep. I've gotten lucky. He suffered a reverse at Wake, he's held up at Saumlaki, Kusaie and Latuem and Burma is a static front, but that's just a few patches in a leaky, leaky Japanese boat. I'm fixated on Latuem now in the hope of actually killing off some of his strength. 1944 affords few chances for Japan to counter-attack, and I want to make the most of it.

Don't sell yourself short. 1944 for the allies can be an embarrassment of riches at times. He is stalled in centpac, DEI, and Burma. The next level in (Marianas, PI) are strong (or so it appears from here). He isn't making it up in China or Norpac (or Sopac as far as I can tell). Where else is there?

Of course it can all come crashing down in a hurry if he lands where you are weak, but that is the major accomplishment you have made - you keep forcing him to fight your strength thus far.

[tiemanjw]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Burma, Again

So, the RTA has about 110 days left until it withdraws. That gives me to August '44.

I'm torn as to what to do in regards to Burma. In the words of the Clash, should I stay or should I go?

Advantages

- Much shorter frontlines in Thailand and the Burma panhandle.
- Closer to the major supply bases of Bangkok and Singapore.
- Much easier to supply.
- Ability to pick the best terrain for the defense.
- Much more difficult for the Allies to get that "Inchon" landing in Burma/Thailand/Sumatra.

Disadvantages

- I'll be giving up good terrain already, as well as the forts I've built. I'd leave behind rear-guards, but they don't really get the full advantage from forts.
- Giving up Rangoon essentially for nothing and lets the Allies use it as a B-29 base to burn the oil.
- Giving up Rangoon essentially for nothing and lets the Allies use it to supply a massive overland push into Thailand.
- Free base VP's for the Allies.

I think August will be my cut-off date for Burma. After that, I'd like to be able to send troops elsewhere, namely Sumatra and Malaya, and the easiest way to do that is to withdraw to Thailand and rail the excess troops south.

What does the gallery think?

Singapore is at the extreme end of B29 range from Rangoon. P-Bang is not in range. Medan is in range, but it isn't THAT big. And none of them are anywhere near close enough for fighters to accompany the bombers. Rangoon is vulnerable to CA gunfire. Rangoon to Bangkok (the next real supply base) is a loooong way through some of the worst terrain on the map.
I don't think it is really that critical to hold. True it is worth a lot of points for the allies - but by the time AV is on the table, Rangoon will be long gone. Rangoon is of limited value in supplying an offensive unless he has a SLOC. Moulmein and Port Blair would need to be neutralized for him to get significant use out of it (the pipe between India and Burma is a straw).

Personally, since he hasn't committed enough to Burma to take it, I'd leave some force behind in Burma and not just withdraw whole hog. But I'd get most (and the most important) units back.

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Industry Data as of 3/3/44

HI: 194,000 (surplus of 1463 per turn)
Supply Total: 5,524,000
Supply Total Home Islands: 3,354,000
Fuel Total Home Islands: 1,793,000
Oil Total Home Islands: 1,157,000
Resource Total Home Islands: 13,666,000

Fuel is down a bit, but that is due to the E-class escort ships undergoing upgrades. Once they're back in action the spice...er...oil and fuel...will start to flow again.

Armaments: 334,000
Vehicles: 41,000

Naval and Merchant shipyards are at 0, my production is perfectly balanced to demand at present, but I have a few carriers away in a few weeks that should free bucketloads of points up.

Questions to those that are good at the Japanese industry game:

- HI. Do I have enough?
- Armaments and Vehicles: Do I have too much?
- Supply. Do I have enough?
- My thinking is hopefully to expand production to match HI output, so that I only produce a small surplus. Is 2m HI points enough of a fallback to last through till '45?

Hi Mind_Messing. Been reading your AAR and am up to page 18. I feel I can finally say something that might actually be relevant now (I think, you might be a year ahead of this). Anyway, when you increase airframe/engine production, look at it in perspective. For every 30 you increase your total engine production, it costs you 18 HI per day. For every 30 you increase your airframe production, it costs you 18 or 36 or 72 HI per day depending on the number of engines that airframe uses. Then subtract that from your daily HI surplus and you'll see how much it costs you. Also keep in mind that every 30 increase of engines or airframes costs you 33000 supply. Finally, you need to consider your opponent when increasing them. A very aggressive opponent will require you to increase your production more than a conservative opponent. I consider Lokasenna to be pretty aggressive. Given the numbers you posted above, I'd increase your 1E fighter production by a total of 300 per month each in airframes and engines. That will cost you 360 HI a day. It looks like you need more Ha-45 engines too. Mine is increasing to 660 and I'm only in mid-1943. Then again, my game is very different than yours.

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Industry Data as of 3/3/44

HI: 194,000 (surplus of 1463 per turn)
Supply Total: 5,524,000
Supply Total Home Islands: 3,354,000
Fuel Total Home Islands: 1,793,000
Oil Total Home Islands: 1,157,000
Resource Total Home Islands: 13,666,000

Fuel is down a bit, but that is due to the E-class escort ships undergoing upgrades. Once they're back in action the spice...er...oil and fuel...will start to flow again.

Armaments: 334,000
Vehicles: 41,000

Naval and Merchant shipyards are at 0, my production is perfectly balanced to demand at present, but I have a few carriers away in a few weeks that should free bucketloads of points up.

Questions to those that are good at the Japanese industry game:

- HI. Do I have enough?
- Armaments and Vehicles: Do I have too much?
- Supply. Do I have enough?
- My thinking is hopefully to expand production to match HI output, so that I only produce a small surplus. Is 2m HI points enough of a fallback to last through till '45?

Hi Mind_Messing. Been reading your AAR and am up to page 18. I feel I can finally say something that might actually be relevant now (I think, you might be a year ahead of this). Anyway, when you increase airframe/engine production, look at it in perspective. For every 30 you increase your total engine production, it costs you 18 HI per day. For every 30 you increase your airframe production, it costs you 18 or 36 or 72 HI per day depending on the number of engines that airframe uses. Then subtract that from your daily HI surplus and you'll see how much it costs you. Also keep in mind that every 30 increase of engines or airframes costs you 33000 supply. Finally, you need to consider your opponent when increasing them. A very aggressive opponent will require you to increase your production more than a conservative opponent. I consider Lokasenna to be pretty aggressive. Given the numbers you posted above, I'd increase your 1E fighter production by a total of 300 per month each in airframes and engines. That will cost you 360 HI a day. It looks like you need more Ha-45 engines too. Mine is increasing to 660 and I'm only in mid-1943. Then again, my game is very different than yours.

Yeah, I went through a fairly big industry expansion towards the bottom of page 18. I had been coasting along massively under-producing in terms of aircraft for the latter half of '43 and all of '44. That seems to be at an end now, as my current production levels seem just about perfect - enough to keep pace with losses and upgrade a squadron or two every month or so.

The upside to me coming out of such hard times in terms of the aircraft pools is that my squadron deployment is just about optimium. The second rate airframes are doing second rate jobs and the frontline fighters are on the frontline.

My word of advice is as follows: you can never have enough fighter aircraft, nor can you ever have enough IJN 2E torpedo bombers.

ORIGINAL: tiemanj

Loka is only "stalled" for as long as it takes the troops for his next invasion to get to 100 prep. I've gotten lucky. He suffered a reverse at Wake, he's held up at Saumlaki, Kusaie and Latuem and Burma is a static front, but that's just a few patches in a leaky, leaky Japanese boat. I'm fixated on Latuem now in the hope of actually killing off some of his strength. 1944 affords few chances for Japan to counter-attack, and I want to make the most of it.

Don't sell yourself short. 1944 for the allies can be an embarrassment of riches at times. He is stalled in centpac, DEI, and Burma. The next level in (Marianas, PI) are strong (or so it appears from here). He isn't making it up in China or Norpac (or Sopac as far as I can tell). Where else is there?

Of course it can all come crashing down in a hurry if he lands where you are weak, but that is the major accomplishment you have made - you keep forcing him to fight your strength thus far.

Yeah, the Marianas are a string of nice little fortresses (abet one without much of a roof seeing as the fighters are in the DEI), though Luzon is on the backburner at present in terms of troops until I get the Kuriles secure.

At this stage, I'm counting every week where the Allies don't make more landings as a blessing. These weeks add up...

ORIGINAL: tiemanj

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Burma, Again

So, the RTA has about 110 days left until it withdraws. That gives me to August '44.

I'm torn as to what to do in regards to Burma. In the words of the Clash, should I stay or should I go?

Advantages

- Much shorter frontlines in Thailand and the Burma panhandle.
- Closer to the major supply bases of Bangkok and Singapore.
- Much easier to supply.
- Ability to pick the best terrain for the defense.
- Much more difficult for the Allies to get that "Inchon" landing in Burma/Thailand/Sumatra.

Disadvantages

- I'll be giving up good terrain already, as well as the forts I've built. I'd leave behind rear-guards, but they don't really get the full advantage from forts.
- Giving up Rangoon essentially for nothing and lets the Allies use it as a B-29 base to burn the oil.
- Giving up Rangoon essentially for nothing and lets the Allies use it to supply a massive overland push into Thailand.
- Free base VP's for the Allies.

I think August will be my cut-off date for Burma. After that, I'd like to be able to send troops elsewhere, namely Sumatra and Malaya, and the easiest way to do that is to withdraw to Thailand and rail the excess troops south.

What does the gallery think?

Singapore is at the extreme end of B29 range from Rangoon. P-Bang is not in range. Medan is in range, but it isn't THAT big. And none of them are anywhere near close enough for fighters to accompany the bombers. Rangoon is vulnerable to CA gunfire. Rangoon to Bangkok (the next real supply base) is a loooong way through some of the worst terrain on the map.
I don't think it is really that critical to hold. True it is worth a lot of points for the allies - but by the time AV is on the table, Rangoon will be long gone. Rangoon is of limited value in supplying an offensive unless he has a SLOC. Moulmein and Port Blair would need to be neutralized for him to get significant use out of it (the pipe between India and Burma is a straw).

Personally, since he hasn't committed enough to Burma to take it, I'd leave some force behind in Burma and not just withdraw whole hog. But I'd get most (and the most important) units back.

I like the idea of cherrypicking the units to withdraw from Burma. The only problem is that nearly all the IJA units in this theater are absolute monsters with 90+ EXP - I'd hate to leave them behind to die. Still, I'm going to see what work can be done in terms of pulling troops out.

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: tiemanj
Wow - really? I don't agree with Joc above that some minimum time of bombardments is necessary (just gives away your target) - but when you go you need BBs and tanks. DDs are fine for shooting at parked A/C, but aren't going to cause the disruption necessary to take a moderately defended fort.

My experience from Atolls have taught me they cannot be taken quickly. Not when sufficiently defended with a good number of forts (4+). Especially true on small (6000 SL) atolls.

I tried that in my game with Erik using -44 marines, Shermans and combat engineers. Everything perfectly set up and preceded by 2 BB bombardments. Was up against a NavG unit and some armored cars behind level 6 forts. I was wrecked and had to pull out.

Show me an example of a "smash and grab" atoll (properly defended) invasion that worked and I´ll admit I´m wrong! [;)]

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

ORIGINAL: tiemanj
Wow - really? I don't agree with Joc above that some minimum time of bombardments is necessary (just gives away your target) - but when you go you need BBs and tanks. DDs are fine for shooting at parked A/C, but aren't going to cause the disruption necessary to take a moderately defended fort.

Show me an example of a "smash and grab" atoll (properly defended) invasion that worked and I´ll admit I´m wrong! [;)]

Well, that's it. I had Wake as much of a fortress as I could. The only way it would have been harder to take would be if I'd left the CD guns there and built forts to level 6.

Loka should have landed at the dot hex south-east of Wake. Alright, you can build anything on it, but tenders and floatplanes can still use it. It's not much, but at this stage of the game the Allies can get a lot of distance out of dot hexes even before they dump engineer regiments on them.

[tiemanjw]

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

ORIGINAL: tiemanj
Wow - really? I don't agree with Joc above that some minimum time of bombardments is necessary (just gives away your target) - but when you go you need BBs and tanks. DDs are fine for shooting at parked A/C, but aren't going to cause the disruption necessary to take a moderately defended fort.

My experience from Atolls have taught me they cannot be taken quickly. Not when sufficiently defended with a good number of forts (4+). Especially true on small (6000 SL) atolls.

I tried that in my game with Erik using -44 marines, Shermans and combat engineers. Everything perfectly set up and preceded by 2 BB bombardments. Was up against a NavG unit and some armored cars behind level 6 forts. I was wrecked and had to pull out.

Show me an example of a "smash and grab" atoll (properly defended) invasion that worked and I´ll admit I´m wrong! [;)]

Maybe true - but this is where intel comes into the game. It is very expensive for the Japanese to defend and develop all of those atolls. So one could argue that if all atolls are defended to such a degree, was the cost in supply (to build forts and maintain forces) and fuel (to transport the supply) worth it. I really don't know, but I would think those resources would be better spent on the inner ring. Much smarter to "hit him where he aint", rather then going for the best airfield, port, or geography.

I don't know of any smash and grab jobs at any "properly defended" atolls. Most of my quick invasions happened against forts around size 3 and varying levels of resistance - all of which I brought much more to the party. My Wake (ironically enough) invasion was the only one that didn't fit this mold, but that was the one case I didn't bring overwhelming force (as it was preparing for the next jump). Even then (with a combat report remarkably similar) I was able to win the day. It just took more time and commitment of reserves.

[tiemanjw]

Loka should have landed at the dot hex south-east of Wake. Alright, you can build anything on it, but tenders and floatplanes can still use it. It's not much, but at this stage of the game the Allies can get a lot of distance out of dot hexes even before they dump engineer regiments on them.

I'll disagree with you here. Allied float planes are only good for search and in the right conditions, ASW. Tenders can't project power and don't have any staying power.

Taking one of those dot bases could be useful as part of a larger operation to provide search cover and a FARP for the navy. But it would be a means to an end. If he didn't have another real target to move onto, it is too much effort only to expose valuable forces where they can't be protected.

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: tiemanj

Loka should have landed at the dot hex south-east of Wake. Alright, you can build anything on it, but tenders and floatplanes can still use it. It's not much, but at this stage of the game the Allies can get a lot of distance out of dot hexes even before they dump engineer regiments on them.

I'll disagree with you here. Allied float planes are only good for search and in the right conditions, ASW. Tenders can't project power and don't have any staying power.

Taking one of those dot bases could be useful as part of a larger operation to provide search cover and a FARP for the navy. But it would be a means to an end. If he didn't have another real target to move onto, it is too much effort only to expose valuable forces where they can't be protected.

In that area of the map, there really doesn't take much to project power. The Allies can do a lot with a dot hex.

Drop an AD down and you can easily supply a hoard of Fletchers to give you sea control. Drop an AG or and AGP and you can have some PT boats to protect your docked tenders.

There's limited options for me to hit back. No fighters in range, so the Allies can park a CVE in the hex to provide CAP, or even have some Kingfishers pretend to be fighters to keep long-range bombers away.

To remove something like that would require a fair bit of effort on my part - at least heavy crusiers, and at that point your risking IJN capital ships for a dot hex, which is not a good bet. In return for this investment (which in terms of overall Allied resources, in minimal) they get a nice base close to the frontline to base Fletchers from, as well as a nice forward platform for deep naval search and recon...

[mind_messing]

April 7th to May 7th

A whole month without an update, and what a month it has been.

North Pacific


...except up here. Still nothing.

The Northeast Area Fleet units are starting to arrive. The Kuriles are nicely occupied, so I'll likely end up leaving most of these units on Hokkaido, with a few of the weaker units being sent to Sakhilin.

Central Pacific

Allied probes into the Marshalls are increasing. Regular bombing runs are now supplemented with a few bombardments of Mili. I've been mounting a pretty decent rearguard action with a whole fifty fighters. Behind the scenes, my ships and planes are moving all the support troops out of this theater, and it's being redistributed between the Philippines and the Bonins. The Allies seem blissfully unawares - this theater looks like it is being left to wither on the vine until it's too much of a hassle to Allied logistics.

South-West Pacific

Quiet now, though it was not always so.

Small scale combat at Manokwari - Japanese paratroopers and SNLF's are trying to dislodge a mixed bag of Allied sub-landed units. Nothing looks set to change here, but I've a Mixed Brigade en-route from Japan to recapture this base.

The KB is now based at Manado, ready to pounce on any Allied move up towards Biak or beyond, or any movements towards Ceram.

DEI

Cocos is nicely suppressed. An attempted resupply convoy was scared off by IJN surface raiders and submarines, as well as the Mini-KB sortieing. The base is now a holding pen for some 30k Allied troops, but it's tying down a great deal of assets keeping it so.

On Timor, we're preparing for another big push to drive the Allies into the sea. Raw Allied AV is down to 600 or so against 1600 Japanese AV. Supply situation is unknown, but the Allies have been using subs to funnel supplies into the base, and there's little I can do about it. The upside is that these subs are not shooting tankers or battleships.

Saumlaki finally falls after the Allies land another division on the base. A spirited resistance in the true spirit of Bushido. Cadres of units defending the island have already been flown out and are rebuilding before their redeployment to Java.

An Australian division lands on Kei-eilanden. The Japanese garrison of a regiment and a naval guard should be strong enough to stalemate the defenses for the time being. I'm debating moving in additional troops here via Bolea, but that will depend on the circumstances and reinforcements.

At sea, we suffer a big setback when an Allied carrier sortie catches a bombardment force out of position - two cruisers and a battleship are sunk, and several more ships damaged. Most of the damaged ships are quickly put back into action, but I'm now chronically short of capital ships.

Three fast battleships and a half-dozen heavy cruisers are the only combat-ready IJN surface warships. To that end, I'm focusing all my surface assets in the Eastern DEI. One fast battleship and the Musashi are repairing in Japan, and all of the slow battleships are either sunk or tied up undergoing lengthy repairs - I see this as a small blessing, they'll be kept out of the way in case I need them later in the war.

Burma

With the RTA units withdrawing in three months and the Allied strength growing daily, I'm bugging out of Burma.

The decision was prompted by the impending Thai surrender and the lack of good units defending Sumatra and Malaya. Plus, I've a god-awful fear of Loka pulling a Inchon on the Burmese panhandle. So far, I think I fought the Burmese theater exceptionally well, but I've no desire to push my luck.

We've already made a clean disengagement from every Allied stack, and I've left roadblocking units behind to delay the Allied pursuit. Around 8000 AV of Japanese units is converging on Moulmein. About 5000 AV will stay to defend this shorter frontline, and the remaining 3000 AV will be distributed between Northern Thailand and Malaya.

The new frontline will be centered around the Moulmein-Raheng axis. I intend to keep the panhandle occupied by a strong force. The Japanese air units in the region will be withdrawn to new bases on the Thai rail network. It is my hope that this move will make the prospect of a landing in Malaya or Sumatra a 1945 proposition for the Allies.

China

Allied strategic bombing of Chinese cities has intensified. I make no response other than to boost CAP over Chungking and Chengtu. I've gotten two good years from China - if the Allies want to burn it down they can feel free.

In the northern deserts, I've a division en-route to drive the Allies out. Should probably have did that a long time ago, but hopefully the Allies have moved a fair bit of stuff in.

[Lowpe]

I have become a disciple of no free strategic bombing runs for the Allies, if you can help it. By that I mean get some 8cm guns on the industry in China that is rail or port linked and or very likely to be bombed...some of the smaller AA can be flown around.

Local AA does destroy some planes eventually, it cause the damage to be less by spoiling the aim of the bombers making the Allies bombing program take longer to execute. And that there is the key. [:)]

I am glad you retreated from Burma...getting kneecapped there would ruin an otherwise great game.[:)]

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

I have become a disciple of no free strategic bombing runs for the Allies, if you can help it. By that I mean get some 8cm guns on the industry in China that is rail or port linked and or very likely to be bombed...some of the smaller AA can be flown around.

Local AA does destroy some planes eventually, it cause the damage to be less by spoiling the aim of the bombers making the Allies bombing program take longer to execute. And that there is the key. [:)]

I am glad you retreated from Burma...getting kneecapped there would ruin an otherwise great game.[:)]

My attitude is that every strategic bombing raid that isn't attacking either an oilfield or Japan is a bombing raid wasted.

The problem with China is the dispersal of the industry. Besides Chungking and Chengtu, most of the industry in western China is 20 LI dotted about here and there. I will move some flak from Manchuria to the bigger industrial centers, and I'll likely see if I can scrape up some of the smaller squadrons for minimal CAP over them.

With Japanese flak so anemic, especially against 4E bombers, you need to concentrate it to make it deadly. The logistics of China make that very difficult.

As for Burma, yeah, it was time to go. The strategic value of Rangoon was negligible once I withdrew from the oil fields, and hopefully I'll have an important head-start in stopping Loka's moves on the western side of the map.

[Bullwinkle58]

Saved from Nearly Page Three.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Industry question:

What is the point in the game when the Japanese should start running an HI deficit in order to use their stockpiled points up before the end of the game?

I ask, as based on what I've read elsewhere (looking at you, Lowpe), I'm debating the value of starting to expand my factories to produce large numbers of my late-war airframes, mainly fighters. My thinking is that expanding now while I still have supply and safe factories might be the best option - the aircraft pool can't be bombed out.

Plane - Planned production numbers - current production numbers

A6M chain - 200 - 190 (all to be converted once A7M comes online)
N1K chain - 200- 165
J2M chain - 200 - 150
Ki-100 - 200 - 150
Ki-43 - 200 - 72
Ki-84 - 200 - 120


For those with more experiance, is 600 IJN and 600 IJA fighters a month too excessive for the late-war, or right on track?

I'm unsure at present, seeing as the first few months of '44 have been bad for Japan in terms of air losses, so I can't tell if my pools are low because of a bad run of events or because I'm not building enough...

Any advice welcome!

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Industry Data as of 3/3/44

HI: 194,000 (surplus of 1463 per turn)
Supply Total: 5,524,000
Supply Total Home Islands: 3,354,000
Fuel Total Home Islands: 1,793,000
Oil Total Home Islands: 1,157,000
Resource Total Home Islands: 13,666,000

Fuel is down a bit, but that is due to the E-class escort ships undergoing upgrades. Once they're back in action the spice...er...oil and fuel...will start to flow again.

Armaments: 334,000
Vehicles: 41,000

Naval and Merchant shipyards are at 0, my production is perfectly balanced to demand at present, but I have a few carriers away in a few weeks that should free bucketloads of points up.

Questions to those that are good at the Japanese industry game:

- HI. Do I have enough?
- Armaments and Vehicles: Do I have too much?
- Supply. Do I have enough?
- My thinking is hopefully to expand production to match HI output, so that I only produce a small surplus. Is 2m HI points enough of a fallback to last through till '45?

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

OK, sure I will give you my thoughts.

First, consider that you have far more IJA than IJN fighter groups. Your production needs to reflect that. 2nd, your IJA groups on average tend to be fighting more. Your KB groups only see action when the KB does, whereas your IJA groups are every day …
Result is that you should see a need of almost 2:1 IJA fighters to IJN. In ’45, I want to build at least 1200 fighters/month and then another 400 – 600 bombers et. al. At that point you are burning HI faster than you make it for sure. I plan to have 4M HI banked by 6/44. If I do, I can support my ac build plan which is +20,000 AC per year for the last 18 months of the war.
Next: You have mostly 2nd gen fighters in your mix. For ’45 you need to get those 3rd gen in place and then build those like crazy.
For IJN: Sam and Shinden. Shinden is about your best defender overall once you learn how to use it. Fast and heavily armed, it knocks down anything. 4x30mm CL are just amazing. These will keep all 4E attacks at night once you have enough groups equipped. Especially as I note you are oversizing the groups.
For IJA: Ki-94, Ki-83, Ki-84r. pick 2 of those 3 and build. The 94 is 1E, the 83 is 2E but good range for counter strikes. In lieu of the 83, you can use the Oscar IV if you choose not to build it.

Night fighters: Once you have the Shinden and stop the day light bombing runs, you have to be able to stop the night runs. Ki-102c Randy is it. The IJN really doesn’t have anything that comes close. Choose one of course to build, but they all have issues. I generally choose the Myrt only because it is 1E and doesn’t cost as much when they are shot down.

Now to economy:
My targets for 6/44:
HI=+4,000,000
ARM= +100,000
VEH=+50,000
Supply=12,000,000

I don’t have targets for the rest, but your numbers look ok to me. However, note the huge gaps on two key ones above: HI and supply.
The lack of supply is going to handicap you with respect to how many AC factories you will be able to build now. Given your current supply, I’m not sure you can invest in any new aircraft (meaning the ones you currently have is what you will end the war with) and you will have to be very careful in expanding them. 45 and 46 consume supply at an amazing rate. So many of your LCU’s are in combat every day that your supply consumption just soars. You build something like 30K per day, but in late ’45 I’m frequently using 70K/day prolly averaging 50K/day. That 20K/day differential eats up 1M supply in 50 days. Ergo, my 12M target covers 500 days and still gives me 2M for factory repair.

The lack of HI means when after you lose the DEI and that source of oil, when you run out of fuel your economy crashes. Literally. You will not have any HI to build ac or ARM or VEH. The large pool I target allows me to run the economy full tilt for 12 months after I run out of fuel or more commonly, when I simply turn off my HI to conserve fuel for the IJN.

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

Saved from Nearly Page Three.

I'll take some time out tomorrow to do a big update; I've not had much time with all that has been happening.

Some good news, some bad news, but on the whole Japan's doing fine.

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo


OK, sure I will give you my thoughts.

First, consider that you have far more IJA than IJN fighter groups. Your production needs to reflect that. 2nd, your IJA groups on average tend to be fighting more. Your KB groups only see action when the KB does, whereas your IJA groups are every day …
Result is that you should see a need of almost 2:1 IJA fighters to IJN. In ’45, I want to build at least 1200 fighters/month and then another 400 – 600 bombers et. al. At that point you are burning HI faster than you make it for sure. I plan to have 4M HI banked by 6/44. If I do, I can support my ac build plan which is +20,000 AC per year for the last 18 months of the war.

That's not the case here, with my re-sizing of most IJN fighter groups to 81 planes. It's at the point where most of the resized IJN groups are used for training purposes because I don't have enough Jacks, Georges and Zeros to progressively upgrade.

That's not a problem in itself, as it means overall IJN pilot quality can increase (better ratio of training planes vs combat planes), but it isn't ideal.

For IJN: Sam and Shinden. Shinden is about your best defender overall once you learn how to use it. Fast and heavily armed, it knocks down anything. 4x30mm CL are just amazing. These will keep all 4E attacks at night once you have enough groups equipped. Especially as I note you are oversizing the groups.

Sam and Shinden are already being worked on. I've put a fair bit into the Sam, as I think it may well give the edge in any late war carrier engagements.

For IJA: Ki-94, Ki-83, Ki-84r. pick 2 of those 3 and build. The 94 is 1E, the 83 is 2E but good range for counter strikes. In lieu of the 83, you can use the Oscar IV if you choose not to build it.

I'm doing all 3. It seems to be that these three air-frames co-operate quite well together. The 94 provides that all important protection against the stratosweep, the 84r can handle itself lower down and the 83 exists for those long-range sweeps of death.

Night fighters: Once you have the Shinden and stop the day light bombing runs, you have to be able to stop the night runs. Ki-102c Randy is it. The IJN really doesn’t have anything that comes close. Choose one of course to build, but they all have issues. I generally choose the Myrt only because it is 1E and doesn’t cost as much when they are shot down.

I'm producing a little bit of everything in terms of night fighters, simply to diversify my pools. The Irving is crap, but I've had it for several months and I've a good pool. The Zero NF is crap, but it has a low service rating and only needs a single engine. The Nick NF is also crap, but it's the only IJA night fighter I can get early enough to have a good pool.

Plus, IIRC the IJN get lots more night fighter groups than the IJA do, at least until the later stages of the war.

Ideally, I want the Denko and Randy c as my main night fighters, but it's the practicality of getting them into action. I'll settle for having sub-optimal production of sub-optimal planes if it means I have a good pool of night fighters when the raids do come.

From my experience, fighting the night raids has been an overwhelming case of simply having night fighters on station to drive up fatigue and drop the morale and accuracy of the attacking squadrons.

Now to economy:
My targets for 6/44:
HI=+4,000,000
ARM= +100,000
VEH=+50,000
Supply=12,000,000

I don’t have targets for the rest, but your numbers look ok to me. However, note the huge gaps on two key ones above: HI and supply.
The lack of supply is going to handicap you with respect to how many AC factories you will be able to build now. Given your current supply, I’m not sure you can invest in any new aircraft (meaning the ones you currently have is what you will end the war with) and you will have to be very careful in expanding them. 45 and 46 consume supply at an amazing rate. So many of your LCU’s are in combat every day that your supply consumption just soars. You build something like 30K per day, but in late ’45 I’m frequently using 70K/day prolly averaging 50K/day. That 20K/day differential eats up 1M supply in 50 days. Ergo, my 12M target covers 500 days and still gives me 2M for factory repair.

The lack of HI means when after you lose the DEI and that source of oil, when you run out of fuel your economy crashes. Literally. You will not have any HI to build ac or ARM or VEH. The large pool I target allows me to run the economy full tilt for 12 months after I run out of fuel or more commonly, when I simply turn off my HI to conserve fuel for the IJN.

I'm just off 6/44 in game time at present. I'll post the tracker data tomorrow, and I don't look forward to doing it. I've been playing the game in automatic mode for the past month or so simply because of RL constraints, so I've no doubt my handling of the economy has slipped somewhat. I doubt I've crashed it, yet, anyways, but I won't be anywhere near your numbers.

Still, I'll take a good, long look at things tomorrow.

There's plenty of drastic measures I can take
- resource stockpiles should be such that I can turn off resource convoys soon and live off China and Manchuria till the game ends. That's a lot of fuel consumption saved.
- Palembang is pretty much drained of fuel, so I can optimize oil/fuel convoys to reduce consumption.
- China is a self-sufficient theater, so I can pull as much supply from there to the Thailand or Manchurian theaters as needed, or even back to Japan.
- The IJN ain't what it used to be and what's left will likely be saved for the Decisive Final Battle (TM)

Part of my problem is that I love digging forts. It's such a double-edged sword. Fort levels of 6 or more (especially in x3 terrain hexes) really give the Japanese a chance to inflict serious delays on the Allies, provided the troop numbers are equal, but the cost in supplies doesn't bear thinking about.

I'll hold off from saying more until I've had a look at the numbers. It's been far too long.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


[I'm producing a little bit of everything in terms of night fighters, simply to diversify my pools.

That's not really so much an issue, and I do as well. I was referring more that what I spend RnD on. I research only a very few frames that I feel can make a difference. The others I build as they arrive basically.

So for example, I absolutely build the Tojo. But generally I do not research it, I simply build the a and c models as they arrive. Frank OTOH I usually research. I will not hesitate to put 9x30 factories on it to get it in mid-43 so that when the Bolts show up in numbers I have a counter.
Further, I know I will be building the r model until game end. So I have not wasted a single unit of supply on this investment. All 270 factories, will build the 'r' model for 2 years of game time.