The Gamiest Game in Town - EL (J) vs Rio Bravo (A)

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PaxMondo
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RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and 0s (J), vs. Rio Bravo as the Green 1s and 0s (A)

Post by PaxMondo »

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

-go for the Jack. This for the simple reason the later versions of the plane come before 45 and the engine is available now (get 500). The J2M3 is an excellent plane with an SR2. Keep what you have and make the George too, but put the emphasis on the Jack -- expand those current factories to 30 now! Plan on building 150 immediately of the J2M2 and bump the other factories up to the J2M3. I realize this flies opposite the wisdom of Pax, but he isn't slugging it out against a person (no offense) and getting a decent fighter early is really, really, important and the Jack is the easiest to get early, all three versions of it.

Just my thoughts.
No offense taken or meant, yep I only have time to against the AI, and I'm not against the Jack. My main point is to invest in RnD on only one of them.

Build both? No big deal, same cost so who cares. Just don't spend RnD on what are essentially the "same" plane. "Same" in this case meaning similar role: mid-war 400mph LBA fighter for the IJN.


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RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and 0s (J), vs. Rio Bravo as the Green 1s and 0s (A)

Post by PaxMondo »

ORIGINAL: el lobo

Also re Harbin. I have had very bad luck with that place. I converted a factory there to Oscars and it never repaired. I finally just shut it off and put it somewhere else. There is never enough supply there.
Give the supply requirement a few 'clicks' up to at least 4000. That will draw in about 12000 and the factory will repair. If that fails, it means you are really short of supply in China and you need to address that quickly before your troops start to melt on you.
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RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and 0s (J), vs. Rio Bravo as the Green 1s and 0s (A)

Post by PaxMondo »

ORIGINAL: el lobo

Lowpe, thanks for the input.

A quick (real newbie) question re the Jack, which pertains to other a/c as well, if you do not mind. Looking at tracker I only see one air group arriving with the Jack (J2M3) in 858 days (from 4/5/42) so where do you get the groups in which to place the Jack? The only source I see for that are to upgrade from some Zero groups.


You are playing PDU On, correct? If so, most IJN fighter groups can upgrade to the Jack (or any other fighter model), although some will cost some PP.

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RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and 0s (J), vs. Rio Bravo as the Green 1s and 0s (A)

Post by el lobo »

I was afraid someone was going to say that.

The good news is that the A6M5 Zero just accelerated a month to 3/43.

We are seriously encroaching the subject of aircraft production so I would like to put my objectives and strategy out there for a basis on which to build.

In no particular order for the moment:

The smash and grab at Calcutta.
Depending on how that goes, maybe Madras.
Burma, especially the oil.
Finish-off Borneo, Celebes, Java, and maybe part of the northern end of Dutch New Guinea.
Make some noise in North Australia as a diversion from the India invasion.

After that I plan on turtling, build and defend, with the occasional foray around N. Auz. I want Rio to think that an invasion could happen there at any moment.

Presently, I am staging at Victoria Point for Burma and India. I am about to enter Moulmein from the land-side, it looks like unopposed. I am two days out of Kendari. After that Ambon and Koepang. That should get his attention.

The crux of this is that it appears as though I will be relinquishing the offensive by 9/42 or sooner. It also means that what I have on-board now will be my offensive a/c.

Does this sound reasonable?
El Lobo (J) vs Rio Bravo (A)
Rio Bravo's AAR - "The War College"
tm.asp?m=3851786

Gamey is not a game style. It is someone's definition.
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PaxMondo
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RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and 0s (J), vs. Rio Bravo as the Green 1s and 0s (A)

Post by PaxMondo »

Its a plan and any plan is better than no plan.

All looks achievable, especially since it appears your opponent has largely done a Sir Robin.

Clarify "... turtling, build and defend ..."
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RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and 0s (J), vs. Rio Bravo as the Green 1s and 0s (A)

Post by el lobo »

Once I go into the above mentioned places, my expansion is finished and except for Calcutta, which I will leave eventually, that is my outer perimeter.

Clear-out China, build a/c, forts, and ports, and position troops and ships.

El Lobo (J) vs Rio Bravo (A)
Rio Bravo's AAR - "The War College"
tm.asp?m=3851786

Gamey is not a game style. It is someone's definition.
GetAssista
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RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and 0s (J), vs. Rio Bravo as the Green 1s and 0s (A)

Post by GetAssista »

Consider Ceylon too if you go into India? Relatively easy to grab and really restricts Allies navy ops in the West. Madras is a no go w/o Ceylon methinks
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RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and 0s (J), vs. Rio Bravo as the Green 1s and 0s (A)

Post by PaxMondo »

Ach, another long post lost ...


gist: Don't fall into the standard "fortify bases all around" strategy that has been the key to every allied victory to date. Read koniu's, Herb's, PzB's, and Nemo's AAR's to see how to win ... there are a few more, I just can't think of the name right now ...
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RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and 0s (J), vs. Rio Bravo as the Green 1s and 0s (A)

Post by witpqs »

Ach, another long post lost ...
Type your long posts in an editor and cut & paste them into the forum. Don't delete the text from the editor until the post has successfully made it to the forum. Here is a recommendation (free & open source):

https://notepad-plus-plus.org/
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PaxMondo
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RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and 0s (J), vs. Rio Bravo as the Green 1s and 0s (A)

Post by PaxMondo »

ORIGINAL: witpqs
Ach, another long post lost ...
Type your long posts in an editor and cut & paste them into the forum. Don't delete the text from the editor until the post has successfully made it to the forum. Here is a recommendation (free & open source):

https://notepad-plus-plus.org/
You are correct, of course, and to rub salt in the self inflicted wound, I already have notepad++ and use it for code editing when I don't use vi. :(
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RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and 0s (J), vs. Rio Bravo as the Green 1s and 0s (A)

Post by PaxMondo »

ORIGINAL: witpqs

[:'(]
Pretty much.
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RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and 0s (J), vs. Rio Bravo as the Green 1s and 0s (A)

Post by el lobo »

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Ach, another long post lost ...


gist: Don't fall into the standard "fortify bases all around" strategy that has been the key to every allied victory to date. Read koniu's, Herb's, PzB's, and Nemo's AAR's to see how to win ... there are a few more, I just can't think of the name right now ...
You are absolutely correct and now it a good time to start.

I have the afore gentlemens' AARs bookmarked, I have my engine production adjusted, further R&D can wait a couple of months, and I can't do much about up-grading air units for another month.

Also, we have to be careful about the connotation we place on “Sir Robin.” Rio is doing so for a very specific reason.

The name on my list would be Mr. Kane.

El Lobo (J) vs Rio Bravo (A)
Rio Bravo's AAR - "The War College"
tm.asp?m=3851786

Gamey is not a game style. It is someone's definition.
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RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and 0s (J), vs. Rio Bravo as the Green 1s and 0s (A)

Post by el lobo »

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

Consider Ceylon too if you go into India? Relatively easy to grab and really restricts Allies navy ops in the West. Madras is a no go w/o Ceylon methinks
Considered it considered GA but given my current philosophy I have to say, ummm, maybe.
El Lobo (J) vs Rio Bravo (A)
Rio Bravo's AAR - "The War College"
tm.asp?m=3851786

Gamey is not a game style. It is someone's definition.
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RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and 0s (J), vs. Rio Bravo as the Green 1s and 0s (A)

Post by el lobo »

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

You've got a plan. Excellent. Watch your supply levels empire wide. At this point you should start growing supply everywhere. Not much, but between now and 9/1/42 you want to see a definite trend where your supply overall, and particularly in the HI is growing. Something like 1 - 4K/day. And of course, you can't starve your units when you do this ... you grow supply by NOT expanding factories and bases and not putting too many air groups into training ... again, tough choices.

Pax, can you clarify this for me?

In Post #187 you stated, “2. Training consumes less supply than combat missions.”

So do I stand-them-down?

Thanks.
El Lobo (J) vs Rio Bravo (A)
Rio Bravo's AAR - "The War College"
tm.asp?m=3851786

Gamey is not a game style. It is someone's definition.
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RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and 0s (J), vs. Rio Bravo as the Green 1s and 0s (A)

Post by PaxMondo »

ORIGINAL: el lobo
ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

You've got a plan. Excellent. Watch your supply levels empire wide. At this point you should start growing supply everywhere. Not much, but between now and 9/1/42 you want to see a definite trend where your supply overall, and particularly in the HI is growing. Something like 1 - 4K/day. And of course, you can't starve your units when you do this ... you grow supply by NOT expanding factories and bases and not putting too many air groups into training ... again, tough choices.

Pax, can you clarify this for me?

In Post #187 you stated, “2. Training consumes less supply than combat missions.”

So do I stand-them-down?

Thanks.
Training does consume less, but it still eats supply.

Supply and HI are what drive the economy. Most common mistake by IJ players are that they overgrow their armed forces (generally via air group size) and/or over build their economy (too many factories ... aircraft/engine) and run out of supply.
The second way is to not save enough HI to be able to run your economy (ergo build AC) in late '45/46 when you have no fuel to build more HI. There are plenty of AAR's to illustrate both of these. The first error shows up in mid to late '42 through '43. The 2nd one in '44/45/46.

So, you need to train pilots. No question. You have already declared this game is 'gamey', so I know you are re-sizing air groups. NP. Just warning you that by re-sizing and setting them all to training you can burn through your supply. This is particularly true because you are
realistic RnD which generally means you will expend MORE supply on factories because you can't allow as many to convert as you would in a non-realistic RnD game. Also, your last plan had you RnD on 31 AC models ... that also indicates a lot of supply usage.

You're going to have to watch your global supply carefully. By now, you need to be slowly growing supply 1 - 5K/day. By Sept 42, that needs to be 3-7K/day. In '43 5-9K/day. You need to realize that your forces are ever increasing in the game. You get tons of new LCU's in 44/45 and they will be fighting non-stop eating supply like crazy.
By end of '44 you want as big a supply pool as you can get; 6M for sure, more is better. Overbuild early and your troops will starve.

See where I'm going now? Making any sense?

Guys like Mike and I, we trend chart everything, but what we watch like a hawk is our supply and HI pools. We want to see nice, steady growth from about 3/42 onwards. Factories are not expanded, units are not put into service, combat operations are not undertaken until the supply to support these items is clearly available.
I don't even undertake combat operations unless I see a way to make/take more supply than I consume. That's one reason I like India ... supply rich environment. [;)] Supply Supply Supply.

[:D] [:D][:D]
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RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and 0s (J), vs. Rio Bravo as the Green 1s and 0s (A)

Post by GetAssista »

Squadrons training or flying CAP expend 1/3 supply point per day per plane, so Akagi-resized 81 plane daitai will eat 810 supplies a month while training 108 pilots. Pilots in school expend 5 HI points a month each AFAIR, so those same 108 pilots will eat 540 HI each month and train much slower. Choose whatever alternative you like ) Obviously only IJN pilots count.
When I play wild with resizes, I usually don't have pilots in last IJN school class at all, them are all pulled into on-map squadrons before entering that
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RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and 0s (J), vs. Rio Bravo as the Green 1s and 0s (A)

Post by el lobo »

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Training does consume less, but it still eats supply.

Supply and HI are what drive the economy. Most common mistake by IJ players are that they overgrow their armed forces (generally via air group size) and/or over build their economy (too many factories ... aircraft/engine) and run out of supply.
The second way is to not save enough HI to be able to run your economy (ergo build AC) in late '45/46 when you have no fuel to build more HI. There are plenty of AAR's to illustrate both of these. The first error shows up in mid to late '42 through '43. The 2nd one in '44/45/46.

So, you need to train pilots. No question. You have already declared this game is 'gamey', so I know you are re-sizing air groups. NP. Just warning you that by re-sizing and setting them all to training you can burn through your supply. This is particularly true because you are
realistic RnD which generally means you will expend MORE supply on factories because you can't allow as many to convert as you would in a non-realistic RnD game. Also, your last plan had you RnD on 31 AC models ... that also indicates a lot of supply usage.

You're going to have to watch your global supply carefully. By now, you need to be slowly growing supply 1 - 5K/day. By Sept 42, that needs to be 3-7K/day. In '43 5-9K/day. You need to realize that your forces are ever increasing in the game. You get tons of new LCU's in 44/45 and they will be fighting non-stop eating supply like crazy.
By end of '44 you want as big a supply pool as you can get; 6M for sure, more is better. Overbuild early and your troops will starve.

See where I'm going now? Making any sense?

Guys like Mike and I, we trend chart everything, but what we watch like a hawk is our supply and HI pools. We want to see nice, steady growth from about 3/42 onwards. Factories are not expanded, units are not put into service, combat operations are not undertaken until the supply to support these items is clearly available.
I don't even undertake combat operations unless I see a way to make/take more supply than I consume. That's one reason I like India ... supply rich environment. [;)] Supply Supply Supply.

[:D] [:D][:D]
Yes Pax, it makes a lot of sense. My problem was that when I read both statements, to me they are slightly contradictory, so I just wanted to make sure I'm on the right track.

I see how Mike is keeping track of his cargo so I will start the same. I still haven't caught-up with his AAR yet as it is like “Groundhog Day” the movie, for me. My browser is always getting closed for some reason so I open the AAR and start on page four and attempt leap-frog through to where I left-off, but invariably something catches my eye that I had not noticed before or I had but now I need to look at it more closely, etc., so I re-read. How many times, I don't know. It's like a statistics class, only interesting.

El Lobo (J) vs Rio Bravo (A)
Rio Bravo's AAR - "The War College"
tm.asp?m=3851786

Gamey is not a game style. It is someone's definition.
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el lobo
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RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and 0s (J), vs. Rio Bravo as the Green 1s and 0s (A)

Post by el lobo »

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

Squadrons training or flying CAP expend 1/3 supply point per day per plane, so Akagi-resized 81 plane daitai will eat 810 supplies a month while training 108 pilots. Pilots in school expend 5 HI points a month each AFAIR, so those same 108 pilots will eat 540 HI each month and train much slower. Choose whatever alternative you like ) Obviously only IJN pilots count.
When I play wild with resizes, I usually don't have pilots in last IJN school class at all, them are all pulled into on-map squadrons before entering that
GA, I see what you say and it makes sense supply-wise.

I have re-sized quite a bit but not what I would call wild. If I pulled all of the pilots out of the school right now I would have to push some others into the Reserve Pool under-trained. (Which is not a problem as they are easily sorted, picked and chosen.) Do you do that or do you have enough a/c to train them all?
El Lobo (J) vs Rio Bravo (A)
Rio Bravo's AAR - "The War College"
tm.asp?m=3851786

Gamey is not a game style. It is someone's definition.
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el lobo
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RE: The Gamiest Game in Town. El Lobo as the Red 1s and 0s (J), vs. Rio Bravo as the Green 1s and 0s (A)

Post by el lobo »

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Ach, another long post lost ...


gist: Don't fall into the standard "fortify bases all around" strategy that has been the key to every allied victory to date. Read koniu's, Herb's, PzB's, and Nemo's AAR's to see how to win ... there are a few more, I just can't think of the name right now ...
I realize that that was a simplistic answer and I apologize, but in truth I'm not sure how to describe what I want to do and I sure as heck do not know how to do it.

Having read some of Nemo's stuff, I think what I have in mind is defined by what he calls echeloning.

I have no doubt that later in the war I will have no navel movement and the sole purpose of the Navy will be to protect the floating air fields as best they can. The carriers will be placed to counter the Allied thrust into Okinawa and/or the Kuriles. The Army will be where they will be and hopefully they can counter, delay, direct (miss-direct) or maybe even repulse an Allied ground thrust. Air power will be my fluid, in-depth defense.

What I mean by turtling is that I see no reason to expand my perimeter any further than necessary. You talk supply, I think a/c. For example, how many airplanes would it cost me to take Midway? Conversely, how many airplanes will I gain by taking Calcutta? Same, same in reality I know, but a different slant. By the way, I have no idea of the answer to either question.

I want a “soft” perimeter that can absorb the inevitable attacks and hopefully deal with them somewhat on my own terms, but I will have my hard-points also. There will always be a Fortress Palembang aligned with Singapore. They are too natural and strong to do otherwise. I hope to create a few more chock-points like this.

I hope this better answers your question. It is just a seed of an idea for me.
El Lobo (J) vs Rio Bravo (A)
Rio Bravo's AAR - "The War College"
tm.asp?m=3851786

Gamey is not a game style. It is someone's definition.
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