Cut from RAC 11.6 Opponent’s naval combat
....
Your opponent simply points to sea areas, one by one, and, in each of them, designates an organized unit
(which then becomes disorganized) to initiate combat, and follows the sequence in 11.5.1. If your opponent
designated an interception unit during the naval movement step in an interception attempt (see 11.4.6), and it is still
in the sea area, he or she can use that unit to start a naval combat. Obviously the interception unit will have become
disorganized during the interception attempt, but that does not prevent it from also serving as the combat initiation
unit.
Known Bugs
Moderator: Shannon V. OKeets
RE: Known Bugs
Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett
A government is a body of people; usually, notably, ungoverned. - Quote from Firefly
A government is a body of people; usually, notably, ungoverned. - Quote from Firefly
RE: Known Bugs
So, in this case would a workaround to this be that the intercepted unit initiates combat?ORIGINAL: Zorachus99
ORIGINAL: Zorachus99
Some people have been requesting to know if there are bugs in the current or beta versions of the game. The developer is too busy to deal with this publicly; but plenty of people have time to post the bugs that they find and are confirmed. Hopefully this will be helpful.
If you would like to post here, feel free, but please note the version you tested with to find the bug. Otherwise there is little public value.
Bugs outstanding in release 1.4.5.0 (Public release) that I know
1.4.5.0 Subs cannot intercept and initiate combat during the same impulse. They may only do either. Verified on bug list.
1.4.5.0 Advance after combat during offensive chits has issues. Reported previously, and it was claimed there was no such bug. However, if units cannot advance after combat, I'd call it a bug.
1.4.5.0 Taking additional Chinese cities generates a loop when the die roll is successful for U.S. entry.
I found these pretty quickly, I'm sure there are more that are important.
2.0.2.3 Subs cannot intercept and initiate combat during the same impulse.
This bug prevents the player from learning the game correctly, and pretty much makes subs less than half as good. Sub marginal value is less.
You can play with the game as it is, but it's wrong.
No point in verifying the other bugs. They probably aren't on the list. Back to waiting for a playable version of the game.
Honestly, not ever owning or playing the cardboard and paper version of WiF, and learning the rules through MWiF in the way they're coded, I thought that was the way it was suppose to be. That is, not the intercepted unit initiates combat but that a unit trying to intercept, couldn't initiate.
By the way, if a unit unsuccessfully tries to intercept, can it initiate combat?
So if the workaround works, this would be a clunky way of applying the rule in the computer version until the bug is fixed?
Ronnie
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Zorachus99
- Posts: 789
- Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2000 8:00 am
- Location: Palo Alto, CA
RE: Known Bugs
IMHO there are not many people who play this computerized version have experience playing the game face-to-face.
Many.
Option 1: A single transport tries to move through the bay of Biscay where a sub lies in wait. If the sub finds the moving transport, the transport is allowed to stop in the zone, choose a box, and wait for the naval combat phase, so that searches are performed again, and the sub again has a chance to find the transport. Bug prevents the search. Phasing player has no ship to search with either.
Option 2: Many ships need to move from the Mediterranean, to the Atlantic. CV’s, BB’s, CA’s, and TRS’s are in the whole mix. Many but not all the ships have left from the same port. The phasing player moves each group through the bay of Biscay, and several rolls result in nothing, and several ships stop along the way because interception rolls were successful.
Now, why would a player stop in the sea zone, and prefer not to fight interception combat? Simply put, subs tend to search from low sea boxes, and interception confers no additional bonus. A typical success means that your search roll is good, and you found the enemy. Often when ‘fighting through’ the combat will ‘fight through’ in the ‘0’ box. This is also good for the sub, because a poor roll when fighting through can be devastating. If you get a differential of just a few surprise points, and you may well be able to choose a good effect on a single ship, or alternately target a good ship in a convoy and apply a ‘D’ or ‘X’ to it. I have seen the queens sunk, escorted heavily by other ships, just ‘trying to get lucky’, and fight through the box, assuming that it was safe vs a single sub. The 1-10 naval surprise split is devastating.
Option 3: The intercepting sub is merely intercepting to mess with movement of naval units between theaters, but plans to conduct a normal convoy raid during naval combat.
These are just a few strategic examples why…
ORIGINAL: paulderynck
In what circumstances would subs need to intercept and initiate combat in the same impulse?
Many.
Option 1: A single transport tries to move through the bay of Biscay where a sub lies in wait. If the sub finds the moving transport, the transport is allowed to stop in the zone, choose a box, and wait for the naval combat phase, so that searches are performed again, and the sub again has a chance to find the transport. Bug prevents the search. Phasing player has no ship to search with either.
Option 2: Many ships need to move from the Mediterranean, to the Atlantic. CV’s, BB’s, CA’s, and TRS’s are in the whole mix. Many but not all the ships have left from the same port. The phasing player moves each group through the bay of Biscay, and several rolls result in nothing, and several ships stop along the way because interception rolls were successful.
Now, why would a player stop in the sea zone, and prefer not to fight interception combat? Simply put, subs tend to search from low sea boxes, and interception confers no additional bonus. A typical success means that your search roll is good, and you found the enemy. Often when ‘fighting through’ the combat will ‘fight through’ in the ‘0’ box. This is also good for the sub, because a poor roll when fighting through can be devastating. If you get a differential of just a few surprise points, and you may well be able to choose a good effect on a single ship, or alternately target a good ship in a convoy and apply a ‘D’ or ‘X’ to it. I have seen the queens sunk, escorted heavily by other ships, just ‘trying to get lucky’, and fight through the box, assuming that it was safe vs a single sub. The 1-10 naval surprise split is devastating.
Option 3: The intercepting sub is merely intercepting to mess with movement of naval units between theaters, but plans to conduct a normal convoy raid during naval combat.
These are just a few strategic examples why…
Most men can survive adversity, the true test of a man's character is power. -Abraham Lincoln
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paulderynck
- Posts: 8494
- Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2007 5:27 pm
- Location: Canada
RE: Known Bugs
If the problem had been stated originally as "2.0.2.3 Enemy Subs cannot intercept and initiate combat during the same impulse" then it would have been easy to see why it's a problem.
And option 3 is no good unless at least one naval unit stops in the sea zone. If they all move through, the sub flips itself for nothing.
And option 3 is no good unless at least one naval unit stops in the sea zone. If they all move through, the sub flips itself for nothing.
Paul
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paulderynck
- Posts: 8494
- Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2007 5:27 pm
- Location: Canada
RE: Known Bugs
If you try to intercept during enemy naval movement, you must disorganize a naval unit to initiate the interception. After naval movement, if any enemy units (that moved that same impulse) remain in the sea zone and the moving player did not choose to initiate a search, the same naval unit you used to try and intercept should suffice for you to initiate a search during the "Opponent's Naval Combat" step. (See rules quote from Orm above.)
Apparently in MWiF, that unit is not allowed to initiate a search in the "Opponent's Naval Combat" step, because it is disorganized.
Apparently in MWiF, that unit is not allowed to initiate a search in the "Opponent's Naval Combat" step, because it is disorganized.
Paul
RE: Known Bugs
I agree with Zorachus that this bug needs to be fixed. You should be able to initiate combat...
Leaves only: when should this bug be fixed. Answer: when Steve is ready to do so.
Leaves only: when should this bug be fixed. Answer: when Steve is ready to do so.
Peter
RE: Known Bugs
ORIGINAL: Zorachus99
IMHO there are not many people who play this computerized version have experience playing the game face-to-face.
Maybe we should take a poll [:)]. Because I have never played the board version but am playing (and learning) the computer version. As are several other people I know.
So I say that there are is a good mix of people playing the game. And would even say that most of the people playing the game (regardless of their backgrounds) are NOT experts in the way the game is played. So what is a bug to you, is not an issue for us simply because we do not know any better [:D]
That does NOT invalidate the issue nor does it mean it should not be addressed. It just means, as stated above, the game seemed to work fine the way it did versus the way it was supposed to work [:)]. Ignorance can be bliss [:D]
RE: Known Bugs
ORIGINAL: Numdydar
ORIGINAL: Zorachus99
IMHO there are not many people who play this computerized version have experience playing the game face-to-face.
Maybe we should take a poll [:)]. Because I have never played the board version but am playing (and learning) the computer version. As are several other people I know.
So I say that there are is a good mix of people playing the game. And would even say that most of the people playing the game (regardless of their backgrounds) are NOT experts in the way the game is played. So what is a bug to you, is not an issue for us simply because we do not know any better [:D]
That does NOT invalidate the issue nor does it mean it should not be addressed. It just means, as stated above, the game seemed to work fine the way it did versus the way it was supposed to work [:)]. Ignorance can be bliss [:D]
[:D]
However, the astonishment of seeing the loaded TRS, Queens or an expensive loaded CV being torpedoed by a lone SUB while having a lot of escorts is something which is priceless. This doesn't happen often, but when it happens it is usually in the phase where this bug is...
There are a couple of other things too, which aren't up to "WiF boardgame" standards which can have quite an effect on the game too.
Imagine that the CW has Gort in Calais, surrounded by German forces (and probably doomed). Now, the CW has the Queens available in Plymouth. They set sail, move into Calais during a naval impulse, load Gort, sail out again and drop Gort in Bordeaux in one naval move. Quite interesting, don't you think...
Peter
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Zorachus99
- Posts: 789
- Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2000 8:00 am
- Location: Palo Alto, CA
RE: Known Bugs
ORIGINAL: paulderynck
If the problem had been stated originally as "2.0.2.3 Enemy Subs cannot intercept and initiate combat during the same impulse" then it would have been easy to see why it's a problem.
And option 3 is no good unless at least one naval unit stops in the sea zone. If they all move through, the sub flips itself for nothing.
ORIGINAL: Zorachus99
Some people have been requesting to know if there are bugs in the current or beta versions of the game. The developer is too busy to deal with this publicly; but plenty of people have time to post the bugs that they find and are confirmed. Hopefully this will be helpful.
If you would like to post here, feel free, but please note the version you tested with to find the bug. Otherwise there is little public value.
Bugs outstanding in release 1.4.5.0 (Public release) that I know
1.4.5.0 Subs cannot intercept and initiate combat during the same impulse. They may only do either. Verified on bug list.
1.4.5.0 Advance after combat during offensive chits has issues. Reported previously, and it was claimed there was no such bug. However, if units cannot advance after combat, I'd call it a bug.
1.4.5.0 Taking additional Chinese cities generates a loop when the die roll is successful for U.S. entry.
I found these pretty quickly, I'm sure there are more that are important.
There is such a difference in terminology; I can see how that confuses you Paul. You see, the intercepting side, is always the non-phasing side in sub combat. I can offer more descriptions on how the sequence of combat works for naval combat, to make sure you are really squeaky clean on how the sequence is supposed to work, but really, your response here was nothing more than covering your ego at completely not understanding this bug, and why it is important. Thanks for the shade.
This was reported in 8-14-15, and ignored like all the bugs I report. No surprise there either. Trying to report bugs is like pulling teeth. It isn’t until I start knocking people sand castles down that they finally un-cross their eyes and see a problem, such as “an intercepting sub can’t ever do a thing if the unit chooses to stay in the sea zone.” How about “you have to use 2 subs to search and intercept?” Or is there a secret handshake I’m missing?
tm.asp?m=3913761
Most men can survive adversity, the true test of a man's character is power. -Abraham Lincoln
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abulbulian
- Posts: 1105
- Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2005 5:42 pm
RE: Known Bugs
I posted this netplay bug and thought I'd share here in hopes somebody had any thoughts or ideas on what happened.
tm.asp?m=3954264
thanks
tm.asp?m=3954264
thanks
- Beta Tester WitE and ATG
- Alpha/Beta Tester WitW and WitE2
"Invincibility lies in the defence; the possibility of victory in the attack." - Sun Tzu
- Alpha/Beta Tester WitW and WitE2
"Invincibility lies in the defence; the possibility of victory in the attack." - Sun Tzu
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Shannon V. OKeets
- Posts: 22165
- Joined: Wed May 18, 2005 11:51 pm
- Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
- Contact:
RE: Known Bugs
I have fixed several bugs in version 2.0.2.4.
I am undecided when to make version 2.0.2.5 available. On the one hand I would like to give the code that fixes these bugs to players. On the other hand, I want to give the beta testers (and myself) some more time for testing NetPlay: naval movement sequences in particular.
===
Changes Since Version 2.0.2.3
(as of October 15, 2015)
1. October 15, 2015 - Enabled debug features.
Changes Since Version 2.0.2.4
(as of October 17, 2015)
2. October 15, 2015 - Added a line of code to avoid a rare non-fatal error when restoring a saved game during strategic bombing.
3. October 15, 2015 - Fixed the error where it was possible to reuse shore bombardment points simply by undoing and redoing the shore bombardment by naval units.
4. October 15, 2015 - Fixed the problem with not being able to Undo moves into the hex adjacent to Hongkong.
5. October 15, 2015 - Fixed an obscure problem where German Peacekeepers could not be attacked in Rumania by USSR units from South Dobruja.
6. October 17, 2015 - Fixed a problem with deleting a unit from a land attack when multiple major powers were attacking, whether multiple major powers were attacking was not being recalculated. For example, if both German and Italian units were attacking a hex while still in the Declaration of Land Attack phase the attacking player decided to not use the Italian units in the attack, the program was incorrectly still inflicting the -1 Die Roll Modifier on the 2D10 table for multiple major powers participating in the attack.
7. October 17, 2015 - Fixed a problem with deciding which side goes first when the Axis gets to reroll and decides not to reroll.
8. October 17, 2015 - Fixed a problem with the end-of-phase buttons sometimes being disabled during the Naval Movement phase (e.g., after skipping some major powers).
9. October 17, 2015 - Fixed a problem when if no organized unit on the non-phasing side is capable of initiating combat in a sea area, the fact that an enemy unit has attempted an interception in the sea area was being ignored. Now units on the non-phasing side that have attempted an interception can initiate combat in a sea area, provided that a non-sub unit on the phasing side has moved into or within the sea area. Note that if a unit on the phasing side has merely moved through a sea area, then combat cannot be initiated in that sea area by the non-phasing side.
10. October 17, 2015 - Fixed several problems with complete conquest to avoid a fatal error when determining whether a previously valid supply path for a captured unit is still valid.
11. October 17, 2015 -Fixed a problem with complete conquest when deciding disposition of convoys and other units that are created dynamically (e.g., forts, partisans).
12. October 17, 2015 - Fixed a dozen problems with the complete conquest of Germany where Germany still has numerous units on the map. The saved game with which I was testing still had Vichy France intact, with no one at war with Vichy France,
13. October 18, 2015 - Fixed a problem so a unit loaded from a coastal hex onto a naval unit moving to a lower section box in a sea area no longer becomes disorganized.
14. October 19, 2015 - Modified the message about saving build points so the player knows that the location for where each build point is saved isn’t made until after all major powers complete production.
15. October 19, 2015 - For NetPlay, fixed a problem in the DOW subphase Setup Attacked Minor when a major powers on one side DOW’d a major power and also a minor country such that the DOW’ing major power needed to set up its reserves and the attacked minor country needed to setup its units. Under these precise conditions, the program was halting with the minor country unit Setup Tray not appearing.
16. October 19, 2015 - Fixed a problem with Anti-Aircraft Fire aborting a Ground Support bomber during the phasing side’s AA Fire subphase.
17. October 21, 2015 - For NetPlay, fixed a problem where naval interceptions were halting the game.
18. October 21, 2015 - For NetPlay, made a couple dozen changes for processing unique decisions: New Home Country, Surrender, Claims, Hex Control (after liberation), and other places where one major power decides Yes/No in the middle of other processing.
19. October 23, 2015 - Fixed a problem with Use Oil where the program was searching for a path through all of the USSR trying to connect hexes in United Kingdom to oil in Kuwait. My solution was to limit the path to 10,000 hexes or less. After that the program assumes there is no path. This should also improve the search time (marginally) for the Use Oil phase calculations.
20. October 24, 2015 - For NetPlay, fixed a problem with intercepting naval units causing future interceptions to not be processed correctly.
I am undecided when to make version 2.0.2.5 available. On the one hand I would like to give the code that fixes these bugs to players. On the other hand, I want to give the beta testers (and myself) some more time for testing NetPlay: naval movement sequences in particular.
===
Changes Since Version 2.0.2.3
(as of October 15, 2015)
1. October 15, 2015 - Enabled debug features.
Changes Since Version 2.0.2.4
(as of October 17, 2015)
2. October 15, 2015 - Added a line of code to avoid a rare non-fatal error when restoring a saved game during strategic bombing.
3. October 15, 2015 - Fixed the error where it was possible to reuse shore bombardment points simply by undoing and redoing the shore bombardment by naval units.
4. October 15, 2015 - Fixed the problem with not being able to Undo moves into the hex adjacent to Hongkong.
5. October 15, 2015 - Fixed an obscure problem where German Peacekeepers could not be attacked in Rumania by USSR units from South Dobruja.
6. October 17, 2015 - Fixed a problem with deleting a unit from a land attack when multiple major powers were attacking, whether multiple major powers were attacking was not being recalculated. For example, if both German and Italian units were attacking a hex while still in the Declaration of Land Attack phase the attacking player decided to not use the Italian units in the attack, the program was incorrectly still inflicting the -1 Die Roll Modifier on the 2D10 table for multiple major powers participating in the attack.
7. October 17, 2015 - Fixed a problem with deciding which side goes first when the Axis gets to reroll and decides not to reroll.
8. October 17, 2015 - Fixed a problem with the end-of-phase buttons sometimes being disabled during the Naval Movement phase (e.g., after skipping some major powers).
9. October 17, 2015 - Fixed a problem when if no organized unit on the non-phasing side is capable of initiating combat in a sea area, the fact that an enemy unit has attempted an interception in the sea area was being ignored. Now units on the non-phasing side that have attempted an interception can initiate combat in a sea area, provided that a non-sub unit on the phasing side has moved into or within the sea area. Note that if a unit on the phasing side has merely moved through a sea area, then combat cannot be initiated in that sea area by the non-phasing side.
10. October 17, 2015 - Fixed several problems with complete conquest to avoid a fatal error when determining whether a previously valid supply path for a captured unit is still valid.
11. October 17, 2015 -Fixed a problem with complete conquest when deciding disposition of convoys and other units that are created dynamically (e.g., forts, partisans).
12. October 17, 2015 - Fixed a dozen problems with the complete conquest of Germany where Germany still has numerous units on the map. The saved game with which I was testing still had Vichy France intact, with no one at war with Vichy France,
13. October 18, 2015 - Fixed a problem so a unit loaded from a coastal hex onto a naval unit moving to a lower section box in a sea area no longer becomes disorganized.
14. October 19, 2015 - Modified the message about saving build points so the player knows that the location for where each build point is saved isn’t made until after all major powers complete production.
15. October 19, 2015 - For NetPlay, fixed a problem in the DOW subphase Setup Attacked Minor when a major powers on one side DOW’d a major power and also a minor country such that the DOW’ing major power needed to set up its reserves and the attacked minor country needed to setup its units. Under these precise conditions, the program was halting with the minor country unit Setup Tray not appearing.
16. October 19, 2015 - Fixed a problem with Anti-Aircraft Fire aborting a Ground Support bomber during the phasing side’s AA Fire subphase.
17. October 21, 2015 - For NetPlay, fixed a problem where naval interceptions were halting the game.
18. October 21, 2015 - For NetPlay, made a couple dozen changes for processing unique decisions: New Home Country, Surrender, Claims, Hex Control (after liberation), and other places where one major power decides Yes/No in the middle of other processing.
19. October 23, 2015 - Fixed a problem with Use Oil where the program was searching for a path through all of the USSR trying to connect hexes in United Kingdom to oil in Kuwait. My solution was to limit the path to 10,000 hexes or less. After that the program assumes there is no path. This should also improve the search time (marginally) for the Use Oil phase calculations.
20. October 24, 2015 - For NetPlay, fixed a problem with intercepting naval units causing future interceptions to not be processed correctly.
Steve
Perfection is an elusive goal.
Perfection is an elusive goal.
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nilssone85
- Posts: 57
- Joined: Fri May 29, 2015 8:52 am
RE: Known Bugs
Well bug nr7 is more or less a gamestopper as far as im concerned, so a patch as fast as possible would be nice...
RE: Known Bugs
And here I was going to ask to wait longer for a patch so netplay would be better [:D]
RE: Known Bugs
For me netplay is not a possibility, only solitaire play is. I don't know if there are others like me in that situation, but for me (and any others like me), an updated public beta with the fixes you listed would be nice. I don't know how much trouble that would be and if it would be worth the benefit of the "potential" bugs in solitary we could find?ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
I have fixed several bugs in version 2.0.2.4.
I am undecided when to make version 2.0.2.5 available. On the one hand I would like to give the code that fixes these bugs to players. On the other hand, I want to give the beta testers (and myself) some more time for testing NetPlay: naval movement sequences in particular.
Ronnie
-
Shannon V. OKeets
- Posts: 22165
- Joined: Wed May 18, 2005 11:51 pm
- Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
- Contact:
RE: Known Bugs
I am planning on a Hot Patch for version 2.0.2.3 on Wednesday, October 28th (Hawaii time). I want to give the beta testers a couple of days to run it through its paces.
Steve
Perfection is an elusive goal.
Perfection is an elusive goal.
RE: Known Bugs
Cool!ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
I am planning on a Hot Patch for version 2.0.2.3 on Wednesday, October 28th (Hawaii time). I want to give the beta testers a couple of days to run it through its paces.
Ronnie