Being good, for a change – SqzMyLemon (J) vs fcharton (A)

[Yaab]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

@mind_messing: thanks for the suggestions. I have to say I am wary of attacking towards the coast, ie away from Chungking and my MLR. Somehow, it puts Japan in a central position, which invites defeat in detail. I agree with you that not attacking give Japan the time to reorganize, but it also allows KMT units to improve their positions, and perhaps to repair some of their disabled devices.

KMT units respawn for free. Japanese ones don't. You need to take full advantage of this rule if you plan to hold China. A strictly defensive strategy is doomed to fail, us Japanese players have gotten very good as of recent in cracking China.

The "defeat in detail" is the goal. You want the Japanese player to waste time, energy and units engaging your offensive spearheads in Southern/South-West China.

Take a 1k AV stack and send it straight for Amoy. You might get lucky and take Amoy. If you don't, withdraw it, send it to Wenchow, see if you can take anything on the cheap there. Nothing going on at Amoy? Cross the Yangstee and see if you can't cause havoc on the plains. Forget about supply lines and such - these troops are expendable and respawn. 1k Chinese AV is enough that the IJA player needs to commit at least several regiments if not a division, and that's what you're wanting.

Don't stop there. Invade Northern Vietnam. The Japanese garrison is pitiful, and the activated reinforcements are only a marginal improvement. Think on how Sqz will feel when he's trying to capture Singapore while the Chinese are taking Hanoi.

Rather than conventional warfare, use your offensive units as a big, marauding group of bandits. Go to those unimportant hexes that have 20 AV garrison, go to the dot hexes with no garrison, go to road and railway junctions. When your units are bombed or battered to the point that they can't take combat, fragment them and scatter them around to mess with hexside control.

Sure, with good play from the Japanese player these moves won't amount to much. It's no loss to you, the troops respawn. He can bomb your troops to dust - that's even better, he's not bombing you to get at your supply or industry.

The "hivemind" of the forum has decreed that the Allies "must" send everything to the hills to fight. It just ain't so. If anything, an aggressive Chinese strategy from the Allies can and will take the Japanese player off-guard. They've gotten used to Chinese hiding in the hills and forest.

Yes, the Chinese respawn, albeit without mortars and field artillery. At start, the Chinese army is at its max level of mortar/field artillery saturation in the entire war. If your big 1K stack loses a battle and is forced to withdraw, it loses some guns. Later, another defeat, new guns lost to the point in which only infantry squads remain.

I would rampage in China, but only with those corps which either have no arty in their TOE (the light corps) or the standard corps with the smallest complement of mortar/field guns.

[Rio Bravo]

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

The British victory cheer is "Huzzah!", which pretty much sounds like the "Banzai!" sound clip the game plays. [:D]

Not sure what the American cheer would have been before "U-S-A, U-S-A". But feel free to sing "Les Marseillaise" any time. [:)]

In my case, it is "Remember the Boisie!"

[pontiouspilot]

I agree with mindmesser's aggressive China plan. I find that this plan is usually very unexpected. Ichang and Sinyang areas are badly exposed and are liable to fairly easy encirclement. This area is also outside of range of Manchurian Sally attack. The aggressive plan ends quickly however if Burma road shuts down.

The other thing I have done successfully is run supplies to Wenchow....all the way from Seattle! Use small TFs or single expendables. I'll bet you a nice Cote du Rhone that most make it!!

[JocMeister]

Not to be the "doom and gloom" guy...but you need to plan for the fall of China. It will fall. [:)] The question isn´t if but rather when unless the Japanese completely ignores China. Joseph won´t. Anything later then mid 42 is a huge allied victory for you.

Against any half competent Japanese player there is absolutely nothing you can do to avoid its collapse. With that in mind delay is the key. The longer you can delay that collapse the longer the Japanese air force is tied up in China. Find the x3 terrain, dig in. Make sure you have reserves in place. Send the British recon to China and all the AA you can find.

[GetAssista]

ORIGINAL: JocMeister
..Send the British recon to China and all the AA you can find.

Maybe not AA? Japan has lots of those obsolete bombers and supply is scarce as is, some guys here even wished they could strip Chinese of all their built-in AA devices to conserve supply for where it really matters.

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: Yaab

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

@mind_messing: thanks for the suggestions. I have to say I am wary of attacking towards the coast, ie away from Chungking and my MLR. Somehow, it puts Japan in a central position, which invites defeat in detail. I agree with you that not attacking give Japan the time to reorganize, but it also allows KMT units to improve their positions, and perhaps to repair some of their disabled devices.

KMT units respawn for free. Japanese ones don't. You need to take full advantage of this rule if you plan to hold China. A strictly defensive strategy is doomed to fail, us Japanese players have gotten very good as of recent in cracking China.

The "defeat in detail" is the goal. You want the Japanese player to waste time, energy and units engaging your offensive spearheads in Southern/South-West China.

Take a 1k AV stack and send it straight for Amoy. You might get lucky and take Amoy. If you don't, withdraw it, send it to Wenchow, see if you can take anything on the cheap there. Nothing going on at Amoy? Cross the Yangstee and see if you can't cause havoc on the plains. Forget about supply lines and such - these troops are expendable and respawn. 1k Chinese AV is enough that the IJA player needs to commit at least several regiments if not a division, and that's what you're wanting.

Don't stop there. Invade Northern Vietnam. The Japanese garrison is pitiful, and the activated reinforcements are only a marginal improvement. Think on how Sqz will feel when he's trying to capture Singapore while the Chinese are taking Hanoi.

Rather than conventional warfare, use your offensive units as a big, marauding group of bandits. Go to those unimportant hexes that have 20 AV garrison, go to the dot hexes with no garrison, go to road and railway junctions. When your units are bombed or battered to the point that they can't take combat, fragment them and scatter them around to mess with hexside control.

Sure, with good play from the Japanese player these moves won't amount to much. It's no loss to you, the troops respawn. He can bomb your troops to dust - that's even better, he's not bombing you to get at your supply or industry.

The "hivemind" of the forum has decreed that the Allies "must" send everything to the hills to fight. It just ain't so. If anything, an aggressive Chinese strategy from the Allies can and will take the Japanese player off-guard. They've gotten used to Chinese hiding in the hills and forest.

Yes, the Chinese respawn, albeit without mortars and field artillery. At start, the Chinese army is at its max level of mortar/field artillery saturation in the entire war. If your big 1K stack loses a battle and is forced to withdraw, it loses some guns. Later, another defeat, new guns lost to the point in which only infantry squads remain.

I would rampage in China, but only with those corps which either have no arty in their TOE (the light corps) or the standard corps with the smallest complement of mortar/field guns.

The Chinese artillery is irrelevant. Even if you have it, the Japanese are going to have more guns and better guns. That's saying a great deal, considering the mainstay for the Japanese is mostly 75mm field and mountain guns. The defense of China does not depend on Chinese artillery.

[Lowpe]

I don't think that China has to be a lost cause.

I like Alfred's posts on its defensive strategy.

I like Mr. Kane's bomber/supply gambit very much. Yes the opportunity cost is high, but having a China around in 44 and 45 really makes for an interesting game.

I liked Obvert vs Greyjoy...where Greyjoy initially gave Obvert some breathing room. I wish Obvert would have tried sending in some resupply to Wenchow from Seattle.

Wargamer recently was aggressive with China early in his game against NJP. Didn't work out so well, as China is fully conquered in that game.

[Mike McCreery]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

I don't think that China has to be a lost cause.

I like Alfred's posts on its defensive strategy.

I like Mr. Kane's bomber/supply gambit very much. Yes the opportunity cost is high, but having a China around in 44 and 45 really makes for an interesting game.

I liked Obvert vs Greyjoy...where Greyjoy initially gave Obvert some breathing room. I wish Obvert would have tried sending in some resupply to Wenchow from Seattle.

Wargamer recently was aggressive with China early in his game against NJP. Didn't work out so well, as China is fully conquered in that game.

I still have a couple 0 AV units out in the bush he hasnt killed yet!!!

A determined Japanese player can always take out China but at what other opportunity costs?

My defense wasnt the best in China but it certainly was fun.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

I don't think that China has to be a lost cause.

I like Alfred's posts on its defensive strategy.

+1

china is defendable with defense in depth in +3 terrain. You should be able to hold until '43 when Burma has been freed.
Of course, if you cannot take Burma back in '43 then Chungking eventually will be in jeopardy ... but then I think you have bigger issues than china.

[BBfanboy]

I haven't played with stacking limits, but from Jocke's comments it sounds like it changes the situation in that the Chinese cannot mass the way they used to.
If they get retreated and there is already a force in the hex they retreat to, the unintended overstack eats all the supply.
Hard to set up defence in depth if you must leave "retreat paths" for your first line.

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

I don't think that China has to be a lost cause.

I like Alfred's posts on its defensive strategy.

I like Mr. Kane's bomber/supply gambit very much. Yes the opportunity cost is high, but having a China around in 44 and 45 really makes for an interesting game.

I liked Obvert vs Greyjoy...where Greyjoy initially gave Obvert some breathing room. I wish Obvert would have tried sending in some resupply to Wenchow from Seattle.

Wargamer recently was aggressive with China early in his game against NJP. Didn't work out so well, as China is fully conquered in that game.

I havn´t seen what Alfred wrote as I have him green buttoned. He did provide me with some "advice" regarding China in my game vs Tom but frankly it only showed his lack of PBEM experience.

I think the Obvert/GJ game showed quite clearly just how impossible China is as the allies. Despite GJ making several big mistake including two catastrophic river crossings and then leaving China alone for a long time he could roll over it later on. I don´t remember the exact timing of it but I think China finally fell apart in late 42?

I don´t recall a single AAR that was started somewhat recently where the allies managed to hold on to China? That being said if someone can do its Tom (Mr.Kane) so I would look to him for advice but against a competent Japanese player I don´t think it can be done. Not even by Tom.

The key is to delay. Tie up as much Japanese assets during their critical expansion phase in 42.

PS. I also tried the offensive approach in China (against Joseph in fact) and it did not work out well....

[fcharton]

Hi Jocke,

I agree with you, except on the timetable. In my game against Spence, I put siege on Chungking in May 42, but it only fell in August and the KMT was defeated and China conquered by September or October. It was a scenario 2, with no PP for borders (so the Kwantung army was fighting in China), no stacking limits, and my opponent made a series of mistakes, around Sian and then near Ichang, which allowed me to break through much earlier than I should. The fall of China allowed me to reinforce Burma (which I still held when the game ended in June 1943), but it also allowed the Allies to counter attack in New Guinea, and I was in a very bad situation there in mid-43.

Now, in this game, we have PP for borders, scenario 1, stacking limits and the China roads mod, which should complicate supply flow as the Japanese advance. Under such conditions, I believe I can hold China until late 42 at least (little will be left by then, but the KMT will still be in the war). The case, in my opinion, boils down to two questions: how late into 1943 can I hold China, and how early in 1943 can I conquer northern Burma?

To hold long enough in China, I want to conserve supplies by avoiding costly offensives, rebuild as many units as I can, and try to defend far enough to have plenty of fallback positions. Regrouping on one thin line next to Chungking is a recipe for disaster. As for reopening Burma in early 43, it mostly depends on Joseph and how much he wants to invest in Burma and Eastern India. If he commits a lot of forces to those theaters, I might not make it, but this should open some opportunities in the Pacific or East Indies.

Somehow, the defense of China depends a lot on whether the Japanese will commit to Burma/India, or to South Pacific and Australia. To save China, I need to lure him eastwards and attack from the west (ie India). If he focuses on Burma and India, it is the other way around.

Now, maybe the interesting question is : how can the Allies prepare for both situations? And the name Cape Town springs to mind.

Francois

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: fcharton

Hi Jocke,

I agree with you, except on the timetable. In my game against Spence, I put siege on Chungking in May 42, but it only fell in August and the KMT was defeated and China conquered by September or October. It was a scenario 2, with no PP for borders (so the Kwantung army was fighting in China), no stacking limits, and my opponent made a series of mistakes, around Sian and then near Ichang, which allowed me to break through much earlier than I should. The fall of China allowed me to reinforce Burma (which I still held when the game ended in June 1943), but it also allowed the Allies to counter attack in New Guinea, and I was in a very bad situation there in mid-43.

Now, in this game, we have PP for borders, scenario 1, stacking limits and the China roads mod, which should complicate supply flow as the Japanese advance. Under such conditions, I believe I can hold China until late 42 at least (little will be left by then, but the KMT will still be in the war). The case, in my opinion, boils down to two questions: how late into 1943 can I hold China, and how early in 1943 can I conquer northern Burma?

To hold long enough in China, I want to conserve supplies by avoiding costly offensives, rebuild as many units as I can, and try to defend far enough to have plenty of fallback positions. Regrouping on one thin line next to Chungking is a recipe for disaster. As for reopening Burma in early 43, it mostly depends on Joseph and how much he wants to invest in Burma and Eastern India. If he commits a lot of forces to those theaters, I might not make it, but this should open some opportunities in the Pacific or East Indies.

Somehow, the defense of China depends a lot on whether the Japanese will commit to Burma/India, or to South Pacific and Australia. To save China, I need to lure him eastwards and attack from the west (ie India). If he focuses on Burma and India, it is the other way around.

Now, maybe the interesting question is : how can the Allies prepare for both situations? And the name Cape Town springs to mind.

Francois

Sorry, I should have been clearer. When I wrote mid 42 I meant the collapse of China and not it being completely overrun. Obviously places like Chungking will hopefully last longer. Be careful though to not let Chungking turn into a Japanese VP generator. When Tom was sieging Chungking he caused 300-800 casualties per turn by bombardments alone. And with units respawning there...I think he was gaining like 5-8 VPs per turn from those bombardments. Times 365 times 3 years...Potential a lot of VPs which might in the end net more then its actual capture (not counting the benefits of having the industry).

Joseph learned a lot from our game in China. I was very offensive in that game though and a sensible defensive approach might threw him off. But personally I think that holding onto China into 43 is just a dream. If you can manage that you have done very, very well.

I don´t want to sound pessimistic you should prepare both in game and mentally to lose control of the Chinese situation in late spring early summer of 42. I don´t think SL will help you in China but rather the opposite. The Gnarly roads might slow things down though which should help you!

Make sure you have solid reinforcements ready to throw before any advance he makes. Recon is bad and you might only get a couple of days warning. He can quickly shift troops using RR while you have to rely mostly on long walks.

I´ll follow this closely. I hope I´m overly pessimistic but Allied track records in China havn´t been good lately. In fact I don´t know of any half recent AAR where China has lasted past 42. Perhaps you will be the first one? [:)]

[Bullwinkle58]

My three cents. I'm playing a Scen 2 stock with Loka where China went away after a very long siege of Chungking, and a DBB Scen 1-with-SL variant that is in late March 1942.

In Loka's I gave up Changsha and ran for the Burma border as I did in my very first PBEM game. It didn't work and I got butchered for nothing. I did build Chungking forts to 7 (a nasty surprise he said) and made a huge defensive stand there with over 350,000 troops, all the arty and AA, etc. I never did the math on VPs, but it took many hard battles for him to take it down. He had a tent pole close to mine there for most of a year I think. Just the opportunity cost of that is useful.

In the DBB game I have tried, in my ham-handed way, to defend China. I disagree with MM that a forward, coastal strategy can work. The Japanese are too fast with armor and hex-side control will kill you. It might work for a couple of months, but the Chinese just aren't mobile. I also think a x3 terrain strategy forward won't work either for very long for the same armor-based reasons. At least not on every industry-heavy city. And Jocke makes a good point about SLs and retreats. One or two days of uber-overstack and supply is poof!

Once the Burma Road is gone and the air campaign begins a lot of supply is the organic supply in the few cities that make it. Once a city is under siege the LI and HI stops. AA goes away and those units are a hindrance SL-wise. The organic internal LCU supply takes a good long while to eat down though, and if there are Forts 4 or up a lot of cities can slow Japan down a lot.

With SL to me the key to hanging on in China at all rests on two tactics.

1) Chungking can become a rat trap if it's encircled due to the resurrection rule. If units are reborn there, but can't get out, the overstacking will eat all the organic supply every turn and it's game over. Chungking has a 160,000 SL, which is pretty low compared to non-SL tactics as I did with Loka. So when the reborn come in you have to immediately get them out and away.

If Chungking can be kept un-surrounded then the SLs even out. He has SLs too. He can't tent-pole his attacks. He has to rotate units in and out of his stack on each attack, which takes time.

And after Chungking he also has to have Chengtu, which is another really hard city to siege. So long as have you one or the other the resurrection rule will help the Allies a lot.

2) SLs really work in the western mountains, an idea obvert sold. 20,000 SL per hex. No way to flank. One Chinese corps and an HQ is about that. Let them dig in and you have a very fair fight in China terms. If Japan wants to link Burma to China they have to come through. Battle after battle on a narrow front. Where possible China can leave a slack hex to allow for the retreat and then shuffle up or back to adjust SLs. If Japan does not want to come through, then fine. The big industrial cities in the mountains and near them can keep the corps alive waiting for better days. Once Lashio is re-taken in 1943-44 the Allies can walk down into the Chungking plain a lot easier than if they themselves had to fight the mountain passes.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: fcharton

Hi Jocke,

I agree with you, except on the timetable. In my game against Spence, I put siege on Chungking in May 42, but it only fell in August and the KMT was defeated and China conquered by September or October. It was a scenario 2, with no PP for borders (so the Kwantung army was fighting in China), no stacking limits, and my opponent made a series of mistakes, around Sian and then near Ichang, which allowed me to break through much earlier than I should. The fall of China allowed me to reinforce Burma (which I still held when the game ended in June 1943), but it also allowed the Allies to counter attack in New Guinea, and I was in a very bad situation there in mid-43.

Now, in this game, we have PP for borders, scenario 1, stacking limits and the China roads mod, which should complicate supply flow as the Japanese advance. Under such conditions, I believe I can hold China until late 42 at least (little will be left by then, but the KMT will still be in the war). The case, in my opinion, boils down to two questions: how late into 1943 can I hold China, and how early in 1943 can I conquer northern Burma?

To hold long enough in China, I want to conserve supplies by avoiding costly offensives, rebuild as many units as I can, and try to defend far enough to have plenty of fallback positions. Regrouping on one thin line next to Chungking is a recipe for disaster. As for reopening Burma in early 43, it mostly depends on Joseph and how much he wants to invest in Burma and Eastern India. If he commits a lot of forces to those theaters, I might not make it, but this should open some opportunities in the Pacific or East Indies.

Somehow, the defense of China depends a lot on whether the Japanese will commit to Burma/India, or to South Pacific and Australia. To save China, I need to lure him eastwards and attack from the west (ie India). If he focuses on Burma and India, it is the other way around.

Now, maybe the interesting question is : how can the Allies prepare for both situations? And the name Cape Town springs to mind.

Francois

I agree with you and BW58 here. If you look at the terrain around Chungking, there are only a couple of places where you don't have +3 terrain at least 3 hexes deep (and even there it is +2). Plan it out carefully. 3Forts in +3 terrain is really tough for IJ to crack, moreso with SL as they cannot create the huge stack. SL is your advantage, use it.
The idea is NOT to create an impenetrable line, but rather one that will take at least 3 very long sequences of attacks. Plan your paths for cycling units. SL slows the IJ down tremendously as the unit cycling becomes very onerous and even a small error can cause weeks of delay to your advantage.
Do NOT attempt to save Xian or anywhere outside of 2x terrain. This will cause units to retreat into your MLR and overstack you. That is how the IJ cracks your line. Do not allow this to happen easily. when it does, move the damaged units ASAP, even to using transports to get them out. The loss of supply due to re-tasking transport is less
than what they would eat in overstack.
Easy? Heck no. But also REALLY difficult on the IJ.
Defending China is a waiting game: who makes the most mistakes loses out. AND it ties up units that could be elsewhere doing real damage while you are able to prep GOOD units for you counter-attack. Think Mr. Kane or Nemo here.

Taking China is a good strategy for IJ, but only if they can do it by mid-42. The goal is the end game where no china super corps (+800 AV) make defending against the SOV possible.
If it takes longer, then they have given the allies too much of a breather and the cost will be too high.

Just my thoughts ..

[fcharton]

Right, I'm still working on the December 8th turn, and peer pressure is getting terrible already. Why on earth did I come to think that going back to AE may help alleviate work stress?

@pax: it is interesting that you mention Xi'an (real men use pinyin, don't they?) I am wondering what to do about it. I agree you can't defend it, but leaving it for free, and evacuating Yan'an, the Shanxi area and the "passses" between the Yellow River and the Wei valley seems too much. I want to try to defend Jiaozuo, and define a first MLR in the mountains West of the River. It will fall eventually, but if a couple of months can be saved this way... Same around Yan'an.
Once these areas are overwhelmed, I will retreat, and leave Xi'an. No point fighting there.

Francois

[Kofiman]

The best recent performance in China has been witpqs in his Rumble in the Southwest AAR. China never ended up falling, and it's Sept 44. Chungking was taken in summer 43. He was quite agressive and defended forward.

I may not be experienced, but I would be much more interested in emulating success, rather than failure. Witpqs' performance was far from perfect, but the results are very hard to argue with. If you do not give your opponent challenges, you cannot expect your opponent to make many mistakes.

[Lowpe]

You guys are mistaken, the best recent performance was by Mr. Kane who held China, and by mid 43 was able to fly in 2000 supplies per day. Unfortunately there was no AAR, but he outlined in other peoples AARs what he had done.

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: Kofiman

The best recent performance in China has been witpqs in his Rumble in the Southwest AAR. China never ended up falling, and it's Sept 44. Chungking was taken in summer 43. He was quite agressive and defended forward.

I may not be experienced, but I would be much more interested in emulating success, rather than failure. Witpqs' performance was far from perfect, but the results are very hard to argue with. If you do not give your opponent challenges, you cannot expect your opponent to make many mistakes.

That one was started some four years ago. Not sure if that qualifies as recent! [:D]

Francois, Pax gives good advice. But I have found that its extremely hard to rotate units as the Chinese. The problem is that once they start moving the air hammer drops on them and they are usually spent before they arrive into position. And if the hammer doesn´t drop they will arrive without forts and will suffer the brunt of the next attack and bombardments.

So you need to have fallback positions. But the problem with that is that once the first position is routed they overstack the next hex and all supply is pretty much burnt up the same turn. SL is not without problems.

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

So you need to have fallback positions. But the problem with that is that once the first position is routed they overstack the next hex and all supply is pretty much burnt up the same turn. SL is not without problems.

Methinks Jocke knows what he is talking about here.[:)]