A Japanese Debacle - Sqz (J) vs. fcharton (A)

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: JocMeister




The faster CA/CL/DDs and even some of the faster Aux ships are usually possible to get out when the KB isn´t around. These are also the most useful ships. With the KB in the area not even those could get away.

While I agree the VPs are nice the problem with a PH strike (especially in DBB where followup strikes are very costly due to AA) is that not many BBs are sunk.

I did invade places with only a couple of BBs remember? [:)] The BBs can be substituted by using air power which actually works better since you have 2-3 weeks of staying power and is easily restocked on sorties without big facilities.

But you can't always bring the air power to stay. Doing so is predicated on KB being a nonfactor, either because of geography, value of the real estate in question, or it being sunk. And I don't think I've seen anything that shows you can completely substitute BB bombardments of islands/coastal bases with air power alone.

Sinking/damaging the BBs at Pearl is about more than just the VPs from sinking them. Even causing heavy damage taxes the Allied shipyards for months or years, in addition to adding logistical strain to your opponent's brainpower. I'd rather hit Pearl and leave my opponent guessing as to where I'm going to send KB next than have KB mucking about in the DEI for a month garnering approximately the same number of VPs from sunk cruisers/destroyers as from 1-2 sunk BBs at Pearl.

I did several atoll landings with very few BBs. Worked well enough and I´m sure it would work without them too. [:)] Having BBs instead of CVs doesn´t change anything regarding the presence of KB? With the slow BBs you would still need complete control of the seas and air just as you would using CV/CVEs.

Perhaps it comes down to personal preferences/taste? I don´t think the old BBs are very useful (at all) hence I don´t really understand why Japanese players usually do a PH strike.

Because they deal so much more damage in one go than aircraft do. They cause much higher levels of disruption and fatigue in the units being targeted. To get a comparable level of results from airpower, you need to strike for days on end, which is just asking to get beat up by KB or large packages of LBA.

And as for PH, it ties up valuable yard space at PH or further delays their use as the Allied player sends them to CONUS so the transit times are added to their repair times. They're also chunks of permanent VPs that you can't get as quickly elsewhere. Most strikes seem to sink 1-2 outright, with some going up to 3-4. That's somewhere between 400-800 VPs that the Allied player will have to get at the end of the war. KB might add 120-150 permanent VPs in the DEI. I'd rather take the strike with the upside... plus sending KB to the DEI right away gives some of your game away.

[SqzMyLemon]

Gentlemen, I have a plan, really I do. Lets see how things play out. [8D]

I'm still awaiting the second turn after all. [:D]

[witpqs]

In my current AAR/PBM I lost 6x BB at PH! [X(]

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

Gentlemen, I have a plan, really I do. Lets see how things play out. [8D]

I'm still awaiting the second turn after all. [:D]

The only suggestion that I have is "Yeah, that's a good plan!" [:D]

[SqzMyLemon]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

In my current AAR/PBM I lost 6x BB at PH! [X(]

Go back and look at Francois's AAR against Spence. Spence called the results a Japanese wet dream. When I compared that one to mine I almost cried.

[witpqs]

Not all bad. The yard at PH was free for other duties. Francois has to deal with 8 heavily damaged battleships, which you can still sink later.

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

Gentlemen, I have a plan, really I do. Lets see how things play out. [8D]

[SqzMyLemon]

Is it obvious I'd rather be planning and playing AE today more then working?

I'm not sure when Francois is going to be able to send the next turn. I'm heading to Phoenix between Nov. 6-11 and suggested if he needs more time he might as well hang on to the turn until I return, as I won't have access to the game while away, If he sends the next turn before Thursday, I can have it back to him before I leave.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon
Gentlemen, I have a plan, really I do. Lets see how things play out. [8D]

No way. Don't interrupt us with your game's outcome while we're busy telling you what will happen apriori. [:D]

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

Is it obvious I'd rather be planning and playing AE today more then working?

I'm not sure when Francois is going to be able to send the next turn. I'm heading to Phoenix between Nov. 6-11 and suggested if he needs more time he might as well hang on to the turn until I return, as I won't have access to the game while away, If he sends the next turn before Thursday, I can have it back to him before I leave.

Which reminds me. Do you have our turn done yet? [:'(]

Thanks for the reminder about your time away. Would you like one of us to run your turns for you while you're away? [:D]

[SqzMyLemon]

Just got word from Francois. He'd like the extra time to work on his setups. So the outcome for Dec. 8th will have to wait.

I'll start posting some actual pre-invasion dispositions and maps before I leave.

[SqzMyLemon]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

The problem with a January 1942 Australian invasion is the offensive OOB for the IJ. There's a lot that's not freed up from typical offensive operations until February-March 1942. Other than the 4th ID and some of the SNLF units that normally expand across the islands in the Western Pacific, I don't know what you can put ashore in a meaningful manner to capture a continent early.

How far out are your carriers from supporting initial landings on or around Rabaul or are you actually considering bypassing Rabaul en route to East Coast Australia (ECOZ)?

I could have landed at Rabaul on Dec. 7th, but chose not to. In hindsight I probably should have, but I chose Manado instead to provide air search for my surface forces operating in the Celebes.

KB will have to transit from Pearl Harbor to Truk before it will be available to support moves on Rabaul and points south. The delay isn't an issue, because it will allow the majority of the forces assigned for operations in Australia to arrive at Truk and area. Support units, fuel and supply are also already heading to Truk.

I had no problem finding the troops for Australia, but of course that comes with a caveat. There will be less troops to seize the DEI quickly, but by focusing my advance I believe I can overcome the shortage of troops.

The major LCU's earmarked for Australia, and already in transit are:

1st Div.(Primarily reinforcement, must be bought out with PP's)
2nd Div.
4th Div.
16th Div.
21st Div.
33rd Div.
56th Div.

I plan on landing five divisions in the first wave. The sixth may be used to seize New Caledonia and/or Suva. Of course, I haven't included various armour and artillery units yet, nor the large number of support units that will be needed. Most units are already on the move, those that aren't are just awaiting allocation of transport shipping.

That still leaves five divisions to capture Singapore and one to bottle up Luzon. I will deal with Palembang and Java with what I have left.

[Lowpe]

You will have no problem in the Land of Oz. Elsewhere, maybe a slower expansion, but I am not sure that hurts that much as long as you get Palembang quickly.

Have fun.

[Chickenboy]

Sqz-it will be "interesting" to see if the initial shock force that you are preparing for Oz will hamstring your DEI / Philippine / Java / Sumatra / Timor efforts. Allied supply and / or reinforcements brought into Luzon or Java could hamstring your follow-on efforts here significantly if you attempt an economy of force in this theater.

Keeping and even reinforcing Java while keeping Palembang out of your hands may be a trade off you are assuming with this disposition. In my opinion, again, this augurs for the use of KB in the DEI early. A successful Australian expedition combined with an unsuccessful DEI expedition would be a strategic failure, IMO. But that's just me.

No matter-I'm going to enjoy the carnage. [:D]

[SqzMyLemon]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

You will have no problem in the Land of Oz.

You make it sound so easy, is there something you know that I don't? [:D]

[SqzMyLemon]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Sqz-it will be "interesting" to see if the initial shock force that you are preparing for Oz will hamstring your DEI / Philippine / Java / Sumatra / Timor efforts. Allied supply and / or reinforcements brought into Luzon or Java could hamstring your follow-on efforts here significantly if you attempt an economy of force in this theater.

Keeping and even reinforcing Java while keeping Palembang out of your hands may be a trade off you are assuming with this disposition. In my opinion, again, this augurs for the use of KB in the DEI early. A successful Australian expedition combined with an unsuccessful DEI expedition would be a strategic failure, IMO. But that's just me.

No matter-I'm going to enjoy the carnage. [:D]

My goals for the DEI remain the same as for any other Japanese player. I'm just changing up the order and timeline. I won't sacrifice the Japanese war effort on account of Australia.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon
I won't sacrifice the Japanese war effort on account of Australia.

Oh, but you very well might. You just might not realize you've brought enough to the show until after your early war exploitation phase is well and truly scotched. So I ask this:

1. How will you know-what will your acid test be-that you've underestimated Allied resolve in the DEI? When do you think you can make this determination?

2. What will your response be vis a vis your Australian expedition if / when you realize you need to redouble your efforts in the DEI? What units will you withdraw from where? How long will it take you to get them to where they are needed with the stupefying distances involved?

3. What can you do to ensure that you're not being 'rope a doped' into overextension onto the Australian continent, thereby leaving your LOC unsecured for a counteroffensive? In my opinion, not taking Rabaul leaves a significant thorn in your side.

4. Regardless of how Australia shakes out, what are your plans for Palembang, Balikpapan and Java? Will that be sufficient and timely? Assuming that your Australian troops are 'otherwise engaged', where will any reinforcements come from?

5. If you are making a serious play for Australia, what were your thoughts on the Western part of the continent? You may need to draw up plans for Diego Garcia, Christmas island IO, and the "hot corner" of Carnavon, etc. to maintain a stricture around Perth while you're tied up "out East".

[SqzMyLemon]

Such a pessimist!

Here I was thinking you'd relish seeing something different. Hopefully my play will best answer your tough questions.

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

Such a pessimist!

Here I was thinking you'd relish seeing something different. Hopefully my play will best answer your tough questions.

I'm with you on this one Sqz - even if your gambit doesn't work out, it will be a lot of fun for you to play (and us to "armchair quarterback" from the sidelines") [:D]

[witpqs]

Consider: The main targets are Sydney and Melbourne. Capturing them destroys the factories there and gives full strategic points for them, right? What will it do to the LI, HI, and refineries there?

After them you can pull out most of the forces for conquering the DEI. The rest of Australia can be left to go in slow motion. Maintain the ability to withdraw forces when the time comes.