Rumble in the Southwest witpqs-A vs Andav-J 2011-11-29 to 2017-02-08

[witpqs]

Tomorrow's assignments at Vinh.

[zuluhour]

I assume moral is still running high at Vihn? His arty suffered 30%, I should think the M4s can finish him in short order as I no longer see forts.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: zuluhour

I assume moral is still running high at Vihn? His arty suffered 30%, I should think the M4s can finish him in short order as I no longer see forts.

The base is mine at Vinh so they got kicked out of the their fort and need to build field fortifications (AFAIK). I'll have a peek at morale at get back to you, but I think it's OK.

[witpqs]

Here's a screen pic.

[zuluhour]

and disruption fine as well, just looking for good die rolls to keep casualties down.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: zuluhour

and disruption fine as well, just looking for good die rolls to keep casualties down.

It looks like this time I set >=14% disruption as the cutoff. Especially important for some units that have large percentages of disabled squads as any of those that got hit would be destroyed squads. Both USA Rgts and one of the Aus Bdes are in that situation with lots of disabled squads.

[Drakanel]

Good going at Vinh and at Hanoi-Haiphong.

Will you build up one between Hanoi and Haiphong for use as 4E strike base?

Also, will you build up haiphong at port level 7, for rearming TFs and replenishing carrier sorties? (not sure if the latter also requires a big airfield. And Hong kong is not so far away, once you conquer it... but it could take a while)

Once you break into china (which may take some time as that roadblock in the jungle could take you 1-2 weeks maybe?), which approach will you take? I imagine your objectives are Canton and Hong Kong, will you pass through Nanning and Liuchow? Or just Nanning? Or none of them and cut through the plains south, directly towards Canton?

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: Drakanel
Once you break into china (which may take some time as that roadblock in the jungle could take you 1-2 weeks maybe?),

I hope Lang Son can hold longer than 2 weeks.[&:]

However, other AARs has shown us when the IJA loses all those troops in Burma/Thailand -- China falls very quickly.

In this case however, the Allies are seeking an invasion of Okinawa. Strength against strength, rather than switching vectors and reinforcing the victorious front.

But the Allies have a master plan and are staying with it. Lot to be said for that, but the clock is running.[;)]

[witpqs]

Responding to Drakanel and Lowpe together:

• I will build up Haiphong at least, maybe Hanoi too. The most pressing need is for large fighter bases closer to the front. Hue and Vinh (not built yet) are close enough for 4EB to shut down Canton and Hong Kong air fields, but he's running top flight CAP there and the 4EB were getting murdered in the attempt last time. Lots of P-47/Thunderbolt, P-51, and Spitfire VIII types will break through that and protect the ground troops breaking through the China border.

• Building up the port at Haiphong? Probably not. Cam Ranh Bay is still building and will be size 9. For ships that can make it upriver, Saigon is still building and will be a size 9.

• Pakhoi and Kwangchowan for sure. Nanning eventually but not right away. The Allied forces will concentrate on the coast and as as far from it as required. The primary objectives are Canton and Hong Kong, the long-term objective is moving right (more or less) along the coast. Chinese units will carry the burden farther inland until more units are freed up from SEAC operations.

• I do think the China border defense will hold out for more than 2 weeks. The plan that I outlined (see graphic in post # 3014) is still valid. If the Empire commits more forces there might be some changes, or even more forces then a wholesale re-do of the plan (a different plan).

• I think you are misreading the decision to go ahead with the Okinawa operation.
° The Okinawa area is far closer to the Japanese Home Islands than any present Allied position, save the Soviet Union.
° There are enough bases in the Okinawa Operation target area to be built up to support the invasion of the Japanese Home Islands.
° There are no bases in China that are as close to the Japanese Home Islands (basically, add 3 hexes even for Shanghai).
° Seizing the Okinawa area provides a base for better interdicting Imperial traffic in the Yellow Sea until land routes can be cut.
° Okinawa also provides the ability to invade Korea as a preliminary or even alternative to Japan.
° Canton/Hong Kong and other bases near them, Formosa, and to some extent Clark/Manila present significant air opposition to landings on the China coast. Suppressing Canton/Hong Kong and nearby bases will require some time as bases in northern Indochina area built up. The Okinawa operation will take place during the air-land battles along the China border, and then...
° The Formosa invasion (made practical by the suppression of the C/HK area) will provide bases to suppress air opposition farther ahead of land operations in China. Formosa also will serve as a significant base for invasions along the China coast that undermine Imperial positions.
° See graphic below. Okinawa can be isolated (via B-29 and naval bombardment) from any Imperial airbases closer than 9 hexes. Significant aerial opposition is expected, but the distance will help to reduce it.
° The land forces prepared for Okinawa are appropriate to the task. Massive strength is prepared. It will still not be easy. It should be the most difficult operation until the invasion of the Japanese Home Islands, and it will only get more difficult later.
° The invasion of Indochina was started with limited objectives, but with an eye toward possible exploitation. Success was reinforced massively. The vast majority of SWPac combat power is there. All Australian combat units that had been working with SEAC have been moved to the China op. USA SWPac units that were working with SEAC have been moved to the China Op. USA Pacific units that were working with SEAC have been moved either to the China Op or to the helper invasion of Formosa. A great part of SEAC air power has been participating, and that commitment is growing. A number of Pacific and SEAC engineering and base/other support units are in the China op and more are on the way. A number of Pacific units are in other SWPac area operations (Philippines and DEI) in lieu of SWPac troops engaged in the China op. A number of air-mobile Bdes are transferring from SEAC to the China operation, and more SEAC troops will do so as breakthroughs are achieved on the Malay Peninsula. The China operation is not being starved of resources. Whatever is needed is being pulled from other commands, both previously and currently.
° Continuing the China operation AND proceeding with the Okinawa operation will lead to the demise of the Empire more quickly than only the China operation. It presents the Empire with a greater number of problems to address all at once. Further operations from the Okinawa base, more effective strategic bombing of the HI, far better SLOC interdiction of the Yellow Sea - opposition in China can be both broken through directly and undermined from the rear at the same time. Industry in the Home islands is the objective closest to defeating the Empire.

[:)]

[witpqs]

1944 September 10

The Empire captured:


The Allies captured:
Hanoi

There were Imperial amphibious or airborne operations at:


There were Allied amphibious or airborne operations at:


Imperial Naval Bombardments


Allied Naval Bombardments:
Allied Ships Bombarding Ternate
Allied Ships Bombarding enemy troops at Vinh


Our subs continue to battle within the shrinking Imperial perimeter.

Quiet in China.

Same activity near Chiang Mai and down the Malay Peninsula. The last armoured units finally arrived at the hex SW of Chumphon that was won by the infantry so many days ago. First glimpse of Sabang is incomplete but recon has commenced. The Sabang invasion convoy is moving out to the west of Port Blair to meet up with the carriers. The battleships are off of Victoria Point and will more directly to Sabang to meet the invasion there.

Hanoi is ours, Vinh almost cleared.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Naval bombardment of Vinh at 65,59

Allied Ships
CA Minneapolis
CA Salt Lake City
CA Pensacola
CA Chester

Japanese ground losses:
34 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 10 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

SOC-1 Seagull acting as spotter for CA Minneapolis
CA Minneapolis firing at 22nd/B Division
SOC-1 Seagull acting as spotter for CA Salt Lake City
CA Salt Lake City firing at 51st Infantry Brigade
CA Pensacola firing at 22nd/B Division
OS2U-3 Kingfisher acting as spotter for CA Chester
CA Chester firing at 66th Infantry Brigade


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at Hanoi (68,56)

Allied Shock attack

Attacking force 23832 troops, 360 guns, 344 vehicles, Assault Value = 746

Defending force 3946 troops, 39 guns, 22 vehicles, Assault Value = 85

Allied adjusted assault: 636

Japanese adjusted defense: 6

Allied assault odds: 106 to 1 (fort level 2)

Allied forces CAPTURE Hanoi !!!

Combat modifiers
Defender: forts(+), disruption(-), preparation(-), fatigue(-)
Attacker: shock(+), disruption(-)

Japanese ground losses:
2317 casualties reported
Squads: 82 destroyed, 18 disabled
Non Combat: 35 destroyed, 14 disabled
Engineers: 14 destroyed, 1 disabled
Guns lost 26 (25 destroyed, 1 disabled)
Vehicles lost 21 (21 destroyed, 0 disabled)
Units retreated 1

Allied ground losses:
8 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Defeated Japanese Units Retreating!

Assaulting units:
31st Infantry Division
192nd Tank Battalion
5th Australian Division

Defending units:
17th/A Division


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at Vinh (65,59)

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 10805 troops, 187 guns, 716 vehicles, Assault Value = 1036

Defending force 13670 troops, 64 guns, 14 vehicles, Assault Value = 81

Allied adjusted assault: 430

Japanese adjusted defense: 29

Allied assault odds: 14 to 1

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), disruption(-), supply(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
2329 casualties reported
Squads: 78 destroyed, 19 disabled
Non Combat: 4 destroyed, 45 disabled
Engineers: 2 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 25 (22 destroyed, 3 disabled)
Vehicles lost 2 (2 destroyed, 0 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
17 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Assaulting units:
632nd Tank Destroyer Battalion
503rd Parachute Regiment
23rd Australian Brigade
81st Infantry Division
2/6th Armoured Regiment
2/5th Armoured Regiment
124th Cavalry Regiment
671th Tank Destroyer Battalion
754th Tank Battalion
640th Tank Destroyer Battalion
1st Army Tank Regiment
637th Tank Destroyer Battalion
775th Tank Battalion
22nd Australian Brigade
27th Australian Brigade
XXIV US Corps
91st Construction Regiment
251st Field Artillery Battalion
1st Medium Regiment
2/544th Boat&Shore Engineer Battalion
46th Construction Regiment
II Australian Corps
45th Construction Regiment
2nd Medium Regiment

Defending units:
66th Infantry Brigade
11th Indpt Infantry Regiment
83rd Infantry Brigade
51st Infantry Brigade
22nd/B Division
16th Recon Regiment



16th Recon Regiment Wiped Out at Vinh by attrition!!!
Japanese Unit(s) surrounded at Vinh
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at 62,67 (near Kratie)

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 3060 troops, 46 guns, 18 vehicles, Assault Value = 187

Defending force 269 troops, 0 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 1

Allied adjusted assault: 50

Japanese adjusted defense: 1

Allied assault odds: 50 to 1

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), leaders(+), supply(-)
Attacker: fatigue(-)

Japanese ground losses:
162 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 25 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Units destroyed 1

Assaulting units:
11th Airborne/A Division
11th Airborne/B Division

Defending units:
12th Base Force


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at 62,66 (near Pakse)

Allied Bombardment attack

Attacking force 3025 troops, 46 guns, 18 vehicles, Assault Value = 93

Defending force 2166 troops, 8 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 25

Assaulting units:
11th Airborne/C Division

Defending units:
2nd Ind.Mixed Brigade
33rd Division


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Only one armored unit made it to Hanoi, but even with an air strike by Imperial death gliders the defense was routed. Vinh has only 5,100 troops left in one unit and an attack tomorrow by all armor and the division should clear them. Surprisingly, our units using strategic road movement into Vinh stopped one hex short and are switching out of strategic mode! It is lucky that we held back most units waiting for the rail line to clear. The units dumped out of their trucks were going to move on to Hanoi and Haiphong, but now have to march into Vinh first. We shall adapt! The first Chinese units have reached Chumphon and are boarding trains for Indochina.

Kiungshan has had a population of SSX for some time now but our bombers have been busy. Tomorrow a mass of 2EB plus some FB and TB will hit the port there under cover of fighter sweeps.

Our assault troops at Ternate need another day to get disruption down. First attack at Singkawang is tomorrow. Engineering units are unloading at Kuching to build that base and strengthen the blockade.

The CVE in the South China Sea are being recalled to get ready for Okinawa. We have increased recon of the southern and middle Philippines. Together with the build up of Taytay that might lend a few days of doubt as to our next target before an invasion fleet is sighted. The Yorktowns and Wasp are 2 days out from minor repairs and fighter upgrades at Truk. All Naha/Nago troops are at or on their way to the Marianas. Might this thing actually happen in September? The world wonders!

Indochina.

[witpqs]

Hanoi, intact!

[witpqs]

Intel screen.

[witpqs]

Overview map.

[Lowpe]

Very nice.[&o]

Great overall view a few posts back...

[BBfanboy]

Nice results! Your instincts for when to attack seem to be spot on!

A suggestion for your campaign continuation past Hanoi: Your plan shows movement NE and SE of Hanoi and none E. If he sees movement pips in only those directions he may reinforce the target hexes, so I propose a little maskirovka. Set the first unit in Hanoi's hex to go to the hex E of Hanoi - it can be in any mode that allows a destination to be set. Keep cancelling/resetting the movement orders for that first unit at Hanoi each turn so they do not actually move.

This will show the largest movement pip from Hanoi toward the E, and he will have to believe that you intend to go that direction -( because he has put most of his troops there and wants to believe that!) Hopefully this will prevent reinforcement of the true target hexes until your troops show up there.


A suggestion for the Formosa operations: check out Pescadores during your recon and if it looks weak, take it! It has a shipyard and Formosa does not. It also puts your fighters a couple of crucial hexes closer to China - the Amoy main road corridor northward.

[zuluhour]

verrrrry sneaky, I like it.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: zuluhour

verrrrry sneaky, I like it.

I like it, too!

[witpqs]

A suggestion for the Formosa operations: check out Pescadores during your recon and if it looks weak, take it! It has a shipyard and Formosa does not. It also puts your fighters a couple of crucial hexes closer to China - the Amoy main road corridor northward.

Thanks - I never even looked at Pescadores. That will come right after the main invasion (I'll have to scare up someone to start preparing).

[Drakanel]

Nice to see Hanoi conquered immediately. And it's intact too so faste buildup. Which is always good.

Also thanks for the graph (in the previous page) with okinawa and the distance from japanese bases. It's nice to see exactly what you thought when you were planning it.

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

ORIGINAL: Drakanel
Once you break into china (which may take some time as that roadblock in the jungle could take you 1-2 weeks maybe?),

I hope Lang Son can hold longer than 2 weeks.[&:]

Just an note, I did write that the ROADBLOCK in the jungle would fall in 1-2 weeks. That's... before LangSon which was not calculated in the 1-2 weeks My statement was that it would take 1-2 weeks to reach LangSon

Also BBFanboy has an excellent point about Pescadores [&o] An extra repair shipyard so close to the action is a really good prize...

Finally one question. Will you be able to manage, supply wise, by advancing along the coast in China? Won't your troops get starved for supply if you do that? I thought you would take Nanning in order to secure the roads and thus a better supply flow when your troops march to Canton and Hong Kong. Unless you plan to land cargo TFs at Kwangchowan?

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Drakanel

Nice to see Hanoi conquered immediately. And it's intact too so faste buildup. Which is always good.

Also thanks for the graph (in the previous page) with okinawa and the distance from japanese bases. It's nice to see exactly what you thought when you were planning it.

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

ORIGINAL: Drakanel
Once you break into china (which may take some time as that roadblock in the jungle could take you 1-2 weeks maybe?),

I hope Lang Son can hold longer than 2 weeks.[&:]

Just an note, I did write that the ROADBLOCK in the jungle would fall in 1-2 weeks. That's... before LangSon which was not calculated in the 1-2 weeks My statement was that it would take 1-2 weeks to reach LangSon
I figure the time line something like this, which is mainly based on the divisions. Some will take about 4 days by rail to reach Hanoi. Others will take 3 days to reach Vinh by strat-road, then 2 days by rail to reach Hanoi. Up to 3 days to change modes. Minimum 3 days to cross the river NE. That's about 11 days so far. Then defeat the position there if the crossing didn't do it.

Some divisions then move straight E, through the jungle (no road) which takes about 6 days if air strikes do not slow them down. Once there, exact movement depends on opposition. Primary plan is 2 divisions move into Lang Son and the defenders between Hanoi and Lang Son. At least a Bde/Rgt moves E to cut off NE retreat from Lang Son.

After the river crossing NE Hanoi, some divisions move through Haiphong and cross the river E. Defeat position there. 2 Divisions move on defenders between Lang Son and Hanoi and on Lang Son. 2 divisions move E. Defeat any defenders there. 2 divisions move into Lang Son and onto road E of Lang Son. At least a Bde/Rgt either remains in place or moves E, adjacent to Pakhoi.

Position between Hanoi and Lang Son will not be assaulted until encirclement is complete or as complete as enemy actions allows. Armor, engineers, and possibly additional infantry will move into defenders from NW (hex NE of Hanoi), plus other infantry divisions will have moved on defenders from other hex sides as described above.

The complete intention, if the enemy allows it, is to cut off and destroy all forces defending Lang Son and in front of it.

Also BBFanboy has an excellent point about Pescadores [&o] An extra repair shipyard so close to the action is a really good prize...

Finally one question. Will you be able to manage, supply wise, by advancing along the coast in China? Won't your troops get starved for supply if you do that? I thought you would take Nanning in order to secure the roads and thus a better supply flow when your troops march to Canton and Hong Kong. Unless you plan to land cargo TFs at Kwangchowan?
The rail all the way to Lang Son will help a great deal. Once we have Pakhoi and Kwangchowan we can run convoys into there, even using landing craft from Haiphong. It will be a lot of troops to supply! [:D]