Chaos(SHC) vs Pelton-T131- Game Over-Soviet victory.

[chaos45]

From Pelton by PM:

"You really are clueless about how things work, kind of funny really.

If a game is bugged all your bullshit about historical losses ect ect mean nothing.

The games ****ed.

you can blow your horn on forums bro say your the greats person ever to play WitE ect ect add more of your bulls ****.

Anyways Good game I am not waiting my time playing a ****ed game."

I guess this is his concession. Game is over, and apparently I still dont know how to play. [X(]

[chaos45]

IDK whats up he just sent another message saying he wasn't quitting now......so I guess we are back to waiting on a patch to fix the conversion of 1939 squads to 1943 squads.

[charlie0311]

PM is PRIVATE! Private correspondence requires the permission of the author to go public.

The Chaos "Mirada" warning. Anything you say can and will be used against you, if in the Chaos case, to further his agenda, his agenda is to be "el Supremo", not a sportsman.

Lots of weird birds in the real world. I would say something "nice" if I thought it might work.

[Aurelian]

Then don't use it for messages such as the above.

[chaos45]

In the North- the Finns are being worn down with overwhelming soviet firepower- This is the result IMO of alot of finns being burned up south of leningrad and still 2.5 divisions or so of finns holding German lines to the south. Also is a massive amount of Soviets- 8 artillery divisions and something like 18 Corps committed to putting the finns out of the war.

Leningrad is re-taken this turn and the far north river line is breached. Bad news for the Finnish I figure they will be at the peace talk tables by fall/winter

[chaos45]

South- massive assaults along most of the line- Petlon seems determined to hold current lines and only retreats in the far south- which my cav and tanks still catch and pummel fairly heavily.

IMO he should probably start a more general fall back as holding these forward positions are slowly bleeding his army to death, and im still making progress in many areas despite his him paying a price in losses to try and hold it.

[Bob12]

ORIGINAL: chaos45

South- massive assaults along most of the line- Petlon seems determined to hold current lines and only retreats in the far south- which my cav and tanks still catch and pummel fairly heavily.

IMO he should probably start a more general fall back as holding these forward positions are slowly bleeding his army to death, and im still making progress in many areas despite his him paying a price in losses to try and hold it.

Game is getting very interesting. Is nice to see the casualty changes having an effect in that OOBs are decreasing under heavy combat. German army looks like it is starting to feel the pressure. Be interesting to see if enough armor/mobile units are concentrated in the south whether a major soviet breakthrough could be affected.

[chaos45]

Bob-Ya Pelton decided to keep playing slowly while we wait for the patch to fix the bug on German logistics not converting squads from 1939 to 1943.

As to getting a breakthrough---as Long as he backs away its almost impossible. The 2-3 Hex step back basically means all of my infantry can at best reach his new lines. Cav Corps can reach new lines and maybe do 1-2 attacks, and tank corps can reach new lines and launch usually 1-2 attacks.

When facing 2-3 stacked frontlines with a unit behind if not units in the 2 hexes behind it means its pretty much impossible due to movement penalties. As its takes 3-4 attacks at a minimum to start making a hole thats not all zoc'd up and even then Im facing stacks of 7-10 CV even not dug in so hasty attacks unless its with an entire tank army wont win. Pelton knows the system well and his withdrawl is key to keeping his Army intact.

IMO he would be better served by starting to back off along the entire line as in the north/center I only have rifle corps for the most part so if he retreats I couldnt even attack and it would save him men. Hes losing alot of men trying to hold the current lines each turn which is one of the reasons his OOB is dropping each turn.

[Bob12]

Yeah I suppose the only option is to keep grinding. With enough punishment cracks may eventually start to appear. I'm guessing he is holding now to try and preserve enough territory to be able to continue his planned retreat for the rest of the game.

The finland situation looks very bad for the germans though. Losing all the extra defensive troops and freeing up soviet reserves 6-8 months earlier than historical could be a real blow to their northern defense. I wonder whether he will reinforce the finnish front with german troops.

[chaos45]

Ya I wondered the same thing when I almost had leningrad separated from his main lines. Its why I didnt start trying to push north until I had the main lines pushed away to force him to make an early decision on if he was going to reinforce finland or not. Was quite surprised that he didnt even send all the finnish troops back to defend finland lol.

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: chaos45


His army is still stronger than historical

As everyone knows this statement is completely not true you really need to brush up on your WW II history. Glantz has a few good books.

Historically German Army July 43 was at 3.5 million and that's what my OOB is at.

What is true is that The Russian Army was at 6.7 million - which means your Russian Army is unhistorically bloated by 1.6 million men.

Lets stick to the data and not Middle Earth fairytales.

Also the 60k men are all from squads which is what 90% of CV is based on,

or

9 men per squad = 6666 squads. German Army only operates with about 30,000 total squads. So that's 22% of CV.

So those 7-10 CV stacks would be 9-12 CV stacks and we both know ALLOT of your attacks are in the 2 to 2.5 to 1 range.

My lines would be still easly holding even in the south.

So I am fighting a unhistorically bloated Russian Army (23%)with an historical german army with 20% of my CV tied behind my back.

Also because the conversion has wasted 200,000+ armament points I should have 100's of more tanks and 1000's of more guns ect ect.

Its a huge bug a game changing bug.

The "fix" will not replace what has been lost, it will not stop the snowball effect that the bug has started.

Seems General Bug should be getting most of the credit and not General Zhukov

[Bob12]

ORIGINAL: Pelton

ORIGINAL: chaos45


His army is still stronger than historical

As everyone knows this statement is completely not true.

Historically German Army July 43 was at 3.5 million and that's what my OOB is at.

What is true is that The Russian Army was at 6.7 million - which means your Russian Army is unhistorically bloated by 1.6 million men.

Lets stick to the data and not fairytales.

It depends on what source you use. Glantz does indeed say there were about 6.7 million men in the Soviet OOB around August 1943, however his figure for the Germans at the same time is 2.5 million men. It only comes to 3.5 million men including Axis allies.

I daresay the total number is affected by what definition is used for "troops" as WITE includes lots of support personel, but if the Glantz definition is used the German army is actually more inflated (1.4 times larger as opposed to 1.24 for the Soviets).

So there is nothing to complain about (at least proportion wise) for the Germans (unless you are into fairytales of course). Infact quite the opposite, I'd say the german OOB is still benefiting from the much lower than historical casualty rates from the earlier patch, which is why the OOB is still very healthy.

https://www.quora.com/What-was-the-peak ... rld-War-II

[Peltonx]

Glantz clearly states German Army strength at 3.5 million July 43 - German not German and minor allies.

You can down load it here

http://sti.clemson.edu/publications-mai ... 58-history

or

read it here

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_F ... te_note-36

[Bob12]

ORIGINAL: Pelton

Glantz clearly states German Army strength at 3.5 million July 43 - German not German and minor allies.

You can down load it here

http://sti.clemson.edu/publications-mai ... 58-history

That figure includes the entire German army on east and west fronts, the 3.5 million man figure for the German army given on page 9 of Glantz's paper also says that only 63% of this was on the eastern front.

[Peltonx]

Guess we have to say BOTH are bloated not just German.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Clz27nghIg

[Bob12]

Yes, although I guess it depends if there is a difference on what Glantz defines as "troops" compared to the WITE definition.

It is worth noting that if the inflation percentage (based on Glantz figures) for the German army was the same as that of the Soviet army it would have 400K less men than it did now. So I don't think it is fair to say that -60K men is game breaking. Especially considering the disproportionate OOB benefits the Germans received from the pre patch lower casualties.

[Bob12]

Good video by the way I have seen it, is worth watching.

[Mehring]

ORIGINAL: Pelton

Glantz clearly states German Army strength at 3.5 million July 43 - German not German and minor allies.

You can down load it here

http://sti.clemson.edu/publications-mai ... 58-history

You forget to say "63% in East" Classic misquote to suit an argument. Talk to us about fairy tales and middle earth, lol.

Another source puts German strength in East at 2.85 million including light wounded, on leave etc. http://chris-intel-corner.blogspot.co.u ... front.html

[Bob12]

Also it will be very interesting to see this game play out to the end as it appears one of the closest ones to date. Do you have any plans afoot to save Finland since the Soviets have broken through early?

[Peltonx]

No.

Its caused far more losses to Russia then any other game I have played to date.

Most people simply wait for rivers to freeze during 43/44 winter and punch a hole in lines and its over in 3 to 4 turns by Jan 44.

Chaos has been beating his head against the wall for 12+ turns losing 3 battles per turn at 1,000 per battle plus. He has wasted 30,000 troops so he can take it a few months sooner.

Finland has done it job then some by 20,000+.

He has so many rifle corp at front now not all can even attack now. Once I have hex to turn ratio he can have another 40 rifle Corp and they are really of no help.

Its all about trucks for Russia now not stacks and stacks of units that can not get close to front.

In the south Russia is 120 hexes from Berlin so I can give ground for 10+ turns and he is still 90+ hexes
from Berlin which is why I give ground there sooner then center north.
This also pulls him from railheads costing trucks and + trucks during mud and + more during blizzard. He already short on trucks which is why he has
disbanded most of his air force. Germans do it for manpower Russians do it for trucks. I am guessing this exploit will be nerfed soon as it should be.

This game I am running like all others + the swapping bug which has clearly made things easyer for Choas.

You can look at my game vs smokendave and see same.

Only difference is Chaos understands the OOB to combat lose ratio like the old timers.

OOB Russian OOB is 2.3 to 1 of German
Lose ratio is 1.8 to 1 turns 110 to 115. It starts at about 2.3 to 1 June 43 then as line brake drops down as far as 1.5 to 1

So as Russia you can simply win by losing. Chaos win lose ratio until lines broke from swapping bug was 1 win for 2 loses.

This combat ratio of course is unhistorical for 43 which is closer to 4 to 1.

So chaos knows the ratios and as any good player should he exploits it as best he can, the bug simply caused it to happen sooner 4 to 6 turns not counting the lose in armament points - so 6 to 8 turns.