Parameter questions

Gavris Narcis · Post by **Gavris Narcis** » Wed Apr 04, 2001 4:17 pm

Hi !

Excuse me but I have this question to put on forum. What means survivability parameter ? But lift capacity ? At what this serves ? In wich calculations ?

Thank you.

Leo

Paul Vebber · Post by **Paul Vebber** » Wed Apr 04, 2001 4:45 pm

Survivability is a rating of teh tanks ability to withstand a penetrating hi - the % chance that a penetrating hit will damage a specific sytem is a function of the warhead size, the "extra penetrating energy" the round has and the survivability and size of the target. Large target tned to be more survivable by their bulk, but things with low survivability tend to "brew up" more easily.

lift capacity =carry capacity we just didn't synch the encyclopedia term label. IF two digits = number of men - if three digits them 1xx means it can tow a light - med gun, 2xx means a heavy gun. Weights correspond - 1xx is a light/med gun, 2xx weight is a heavy gun.

Gavris Narcis · Post by **Gavris Narcis** » Sat Apr 07, 2001 7:40 am

Originally posted by Paul Vebber:
Survivability is a rating of teh tanks ability to withstand a penetrating hi - the % chance that a penetrating hit will damage a specific sytem is a function of the warhead size, the "extra penetrating energy" the round has and the survivability and size of the target. Large target tned to be more survivable by their bulk, but things with low survivability tend to "brew up" more easily.

lift capacity =carry capacity we just didn't synch the encyclopedia term label. IF two digits = number of men - if three digits them 1xx means it can tow a light - med gun, 2xx means a heavy gun. Weights correspond - 1xx is a light/med gun, 2xx weight is a heavy gun.

That means large target= high survivability ? Why ? I can't understand ! You wrote: ''Large target tend to be more survivable by their bulk''
What means bulk ?

Leo.

bchapman · Post by **bchapman** » Sat Apr 07, 2001 4:49 pm

Paul,
While you are on the subject, could you explain the rest of the info given? (Acc, Kill, Pen, Heat, APCR, Range, War Head, Rate of Fire, Targeting, Fire Control, Load Cost, Size) I think some of these are self explainitory, but some aren't. Or do I need to dig out my manual and read some?
Thanks,
Bascom

xavier · Post by **xavier** » Sat Apr 07, 2001 8:02 pm

Originally posted by bchapman:
Paul,
While you are on the subject, could you explain the rest of the info given? (Acc, Kill, Pen, Heat, APCR, Range, War Head, Rate of Fire, Targeting, Fire Control, Load Cost, Size) I think some of these are self explainitory, but some aren't. Or do I need to dig out my manual and read some?
Thanks,
Bascom

Read the manual :
pages 79, 80, 81, 82.

XAAL.

lnp4668 · Post by **lnp4668** » Sat Apr 07, 2001 8:42 pm

Garvis,
A larger tank (ie Tiger) when hit will give its crew a better chance of survival since the kinetic enegery of the warhead will be spent over a larger amount of material than a much smaller pzII for example.

Just think of it as you will have much better chance of walk away from an accident driving a SUV than a VW Bug (unless you rollover, but that is another topic

)

Gloo · Post by **Gloo** » Tue Apr 10, 2001 7:38 am

Originally posted by Gavris Narcis:

That means large target= high survivability ? Why ? I can't understand ! You wrote: ''Large target tend to be more survivable by their bulk''
What means bulk ?

Leo.

He means that the thicker the armour, the likely the men and machine to survive a hit. To see what can be killed by what, you must pay attention to the thickness and slope of the armour, the potential penetration of the ammo used against it, the range you're firing at, and things like that. Read the manual carefully and try some battles to experiment. It sounds complicated but it's fairly simple

Voriax · Post by **Voriax** » Tue Apr 10, 2001 8:25 am

Originally posted by Gloo:
He means that the thicker the armour, the likely the men and machine to survive a hit.

I'd like to disagree a bit

While the armour thickness is an important factor the survivability value is taken into account only when that armour has been already penetrated.
As for why the larger targets tend to have higher survivability...well, if you have 5 men and all the ammo & equipment stuffed in a very small tank it is more probable that a penetrating round hits something important. In a larger tank there is a bit more room and the larger internal volume makes the shock effects a bit smaller.
Of course design features play a part too, like the wet ammo storage on some shermans or possible fire extinguishers.

Voriax

Gloo · Post by **Gloo** » Wed Apr 11, 2001 9:08 am

Originally posted by Voriax:
I'd like to disagree a bit....

Of course! But I thought it was pretty obvious that a shell not penetrating a tank is unlikely to kill the crew as long as they are butonned up inside... !

Voriax · Post by **Voriax** » Wed Apr 11, 2001 4:15 pm

Originally posted by Gloo:
Of course! But I thought it was pretty obvious that a shell not penetrating a tank is unlikely to kill the crew as long as they are butonned up inside... !

But remember that you can get a non-penetrating turret ring hit that kills the tank!

One suggestion to the Matrix gurus: How about making it possible that a non-penetrating hit from a big enough gun, like a HE round from a 100+mm field gun *could* kill crewmembers.
Currently you can occasionally receive a 'crew stunned' result that doesn't really mean that much. But I'd imagine that if a 152mm HE shell hits the front armour of a Tiger or KV-1 the guys inside will be deaf, dazed and probably wounded from the spall flying inside turret.

Voriax

Mikimoto · Post by **Mikimoto** » Wed Apr 11, 2001 11:39 pm

Hello Gavris.
Please, read the manual. It's wonderfully writed and structured, and explains all the basics of the game.

Gloo · Post by **Gloo** » Sat Apr 14, 2001 10:29 am

Originally posted by Voriax:
...152mm HE shell hits the front armour of a Tiger or KV-1 the guys inside will be deaf, dazed and probably wounded from the spall flying inside turret.

Really don't know! Maybe you're right. I only know that a 76mm ATG hit on a Tiger was already a bit stunning and generated irritating smokes inside the combat compartment.

Gavris Narcis · Post by **Gavris Narcis** » Sat Apr 14, 2001 9:29 pm

Originally posted by Gloo:
Really don't know! Maybe you're right. I only know that a 76mm ATG hit on a Tiger was already a bit stunning and generated irritating smokes inside the combat compartment.

Not maybe, of course he is right !!!
For the 76mm it is exactly what you say, but with 100mm+ shells is what Voriax member says!
Don't you know the story of the death of the ace of panzers of WWII- the german Wittman ? He was killed (with all the crew) because theirs tank turret was hit by a large nonpenetrating shell (at least that is what I know !) and the turret was instantly break apart from the hull !!!
Yes, the Matrix team must to take this in calculations to obtain a destroyed armor vehicle by large nonpenetrating shells !!!
Matrix team, do you hear this ? Thank you for your future responses.

Leo.

Paul Vebber · Post by **Paul Vebber** » Sun Apr 15, 2001 1:10 am

Large non-penetrating hits will cause the crew to bail out if the suppression of the crew is high enough. I just had this happen to a panther hit by a 122 HE, it knocked the main gun out and the crew took the better part of valor...

This is already in the game, but like many other things, is not and "automatic" occurance, just like it was not in real life. The more you play the game the more you will see such things happen.

Crew stunnned adds a LARGE chunk of suppression and if fiollowed by several more non-penetrating hits or particularly if the vehicel is immobilized, the crew will bail. Or at least be out of action for a turn or two - tending a a wounded crewmate or just getting their senses back.

Gavris Narcis · Post by **Gavris Narcis** » Sun Apr 15, 2001 1:00 pm

Originally posted by Paul Vebber:
Large non-penetrating hits will cause the crew to bail out if the suppression of the crew is high enough. I just had this happen to a panther hit by a 122 HE, it knocked the main gun out and the crew took the better part of valor...

This is already in the game, but like many other things, is not and "automatic" occurance, just like it was not in real life. The more you play the game the more you will see such things happen.

Crew stunnned adds a LARGE chunk of suppression and if fiollowed by several more non-penetrating hits or particularly if the vehicel is immobilized, the crew will bail. Or at least be out of action for a turn or two - tending a a wounded crewmate or just getting their senses back.

Now, please respond to my question: it is possible to kill a tank crewmembers with a (large, of course) nonpenetrating hit (see the death of Wittman)in the game ? Because to bail out is one, and to be killed is another ! A large HE shell who hit the turret ring COULD break apart the turret and therefore kill everyones inside ! It's corect, isn't so ?
Thank you.

Leo.

lnp4668 · Post by **lnp4668** » Sun Apr 15, 2001 6:39 pm

The death of Whittman is still currently being disputed by historian. There are those who maintained that his tank was destroy by bomb, not by another tank. Would that we have a time machine

Paul Vebber · Post by **Paul Vebber** » Sun Apr 15, 2001 7:35 pm

AS I explained several times before in other threads Gavris, "penetration" is defined to be an event that causes damage to the interior, a "non-penetrating" hit causes no damage to the interior (but can damage things on the outside and casue the crew to be suppressed but not killed).

A large caliber HE round can "penetrate" and only kill a crew member, causing no other damage. That could be because of the round causing a hole to be created or by a piece of something flying around inside. But to the game that is a "penetration" because it caused damge to someting inside.

Your example of an HE shell causing the turret to break apart and kill everyone inside seems to me to hardly be a "nonpenetrating hit"?!? Fire an SU152 at a PZIV and such will happen a fair amount! but are considered "penetrations"

You don't seem to want to accept the underlying definition. We aren't going to change it. IF a hit causes damage to something inside (including a crew member) it by definition (mine) penetrates. Therefore the case of a non-penetrating hit causing internal damage is logically impossible.

A 150mm shell has the possibility to penetrate as much as ~50mm or armor. THe way it is randomized it will penetrate between 50% of that value and the whole value and is compard to the straight thickness of the armor (no slope included). THat means it is quite effective against most medium tanks and only things like tigers are immune (until the gun is knocked out or it is immobilized)

Gloo · Post by **Gloo** » Fri Apr 20, 2001 11:03 am

Originally posted by Gavris Narcis:
Don't you know the story of the death of the ace of panzers of WWII- the german Wittman...

No; I heard about the man but had no idea about where, when and how he died. Sorry, I'm not a military historian

Anyway, I think it's obvious a big shell direct hit is likely to greatly damage a tank and "disturb" the crew... but as far as I know, it wasn't happening that often. There were only few tanks really killed that way. In the game, I never saw hit happen but it may be there, waiting for it

Paul Vebber · Post by **Paul Vebber** » Fri Apr 20, 2001 1:58 pm

It will be more common in v5!