Karachi taken by Japan breaks offmap spawns

[GetAssista]

So, I was testing world domination possibilities (doing my best to not get caught by psychiatric nurses ofc) and run into some strange behavior that might constitute a bug.

1. AI spawns LCUs and ships scheduled to arrive into offmap bases on map. E.g. stuff arriving into Aden would appear at Karachi. That's ok and WAD
2. When Karachi is occupied and arrival date into Karachi comes, spawns are kicked back a month and redirected to Aden. That's ok and WAD.
3. But ships and LCUs will never actually spawn, neither in Aden nor anywhere else. They continue being kicked back a month indefinitely. Airgroups will spawn just fine in Aden though, which makes me believe not all of this is WAD.

I understand that Karachi taken by Japan will break AI game anyway, yet there is no reason to make life that much easier for the player. AI can find use for those ships and LCUs if it gets them spawned

[michaelm75au]

Please attach a save. I assume you mean any British or CW units don't arrive in Aden even though they show as Aden in the reinforcement schedule?
IIRC, units whose national base has been occupied, just wait around until the base is recaptured for them to reappear.

[GetAssista]

Save attached, last patch, Stock 1 scenario. All ships currently at Aden came there from map, not from reinforcements.

Thank you once again for continuous support, Michael!

[michaelm75au]

I ran the save and several LCUs arrived at Aden. But they weren't the ones I expected[&:].
I will look at LCU and ship separately, but I think they are arriving in Aden.
Aden is not listed in the manual as an alternate arrival base, so I need to refresh my memory as to where Aden comes into the code.
--
One confusing thing is that the LCU reinforcement screen lists units that can't arrive as 'Aden*' when there is no national base. I have corrected this so that they read as 'unknown' which is what should be there. These units WONT come back until one of the national sources is recaptured.
I'm thinking of filtering these out automatically from this screen; the filter can be turned back on but it is just clouding things on the screen.

[michaelm75au]

All seems to be working except for ships. Once the arrival base is captured, it seems to stop the arrival of the ship. I think that this is really for the Japanese player, where ship building is cancelled when base is captured.

[Alfred]

ORIGINAL: michaelm

All seems to be working except for ships. Once the arrival base is captured, it seems to stop the arrival of the ship. I think that this is really for the Japanese player, where ship building is cancelled when base is captured.

Not according to Don Bowen. Back on 31 May 2009 in this thread

tm.asp?m=2128198&mpage=1&key=ship%2Ccon ... n&#2128245

he commented that such ships were meant to be "destroyed", ie not to arrive. He specifically mentioned Allied ship construction locations and did not restrict it only to Japanese ship "construction".

Alfred

[wdolson]

There are exceptions in the OOB, but it's assumed if an Allied ship shows up on map, it is built at that base and it's a new delivery. There are some ships that should arrive in off map bases that show up on map such as the HMAS Australia which should start the game in the Indian Ocean, but shows up in, I believe, Sydney.

If the base is captured, the shipyard that built the ship is lost and the ship will never be built.

Bill

[michaelm75au]

In the save, I would find it hard to believe the number of British CVs that were built at Karachi or Columbo.[:D].
Plus ships withdrawn and then returning at Karachi.
--
Also you don't get points for these ships stuck in the queue.

[GetAssista]

ORIGINAL: michaelm
I ran the save and several LCUs arrived at Aden. But they weren't the ones I expected[&:].

Can you tell which LCUs and how long did it take? I had nothing arriving there for months, except all Brit airgroups. I'm running the last official patch, so presumably your game is the same as mine, hmm...

ORIGINAL: michaelm
One confusing thing is that the LCU reinforcement screen lists units that can't arrive as 'Aden*' when there is no national base. I have corrected this so that they read as 'unknown' which is what should be there.

Yes, this would be most helpful, thanks. Currently I see only Chinese listed as 'unknown'. Also, there are different 'Aden*'s for units stuck in the queue. Some like Dutch are always at 2-day arrival, presumably behaving like 'unknown' should. But Brits/Indians keep resetting the 30-days timer.

ORIGINAL: michaelm
Also you don't get points for these ships stuck in the queue.

Is not it a bit unfair? =) With Brit ships arriving from Europe Japanese player actually never gets them destroyed in warfs.

ORIGINAL: michaelm
Aden is not listed in the manual as an alternate arrival base, so I need to refresh my memory as to where Aden comes into the code.

This is actually quite strange specifically for British. Given that them all originated far from Asia and get to Karachi from the vicinity of either Aden or Capetown I would expect one of those would be a national base for Brits so that other spawns shift here if India is lost. In the save the bulk of emergency reinforcements never arrived anywhere because Karachi was taken on the next day after amphib landing.

[michaelm75au]

FYI, here are the current national bases {primary, alternate}:
{ BASE_TOKYO, BASE_OSAKA }, // Japanese Army
{ BASE_TOKYO, BASE_OSAKA }, // Japanese Navy
{ BASE_SAN_FRANCISCO, BASE_EASTERN_USA }, // US Navy
{ BASE_SAN_FRANCISCO, BASE_EASTERN_USA }, // US Army
{ BASE_SAN_FRANCISCO, BASE_EASTERN_USA }, // US Marines
{ BASE_SYDNEY, BASE_MELBOURNE }, // Australia
{ BASE_AUCKLAND, BASE_CHRISTCHURCH }, // New Zealand
{ BASE_ADEN, BASE_UNITED_KINGDOM }, // British
{ BASE_UNITED_KINGDOM, 0 }, // French
{ BASE_TJILITJAP, BASE_SOERABAYA }, // Dutch
{ BASE_CHUNGKING, BASE_CHENGTU }, // Chinese
{ BASE_KUYSYSHEVKA, BASE_SOVIET_UNION },// Soviet
{ BASE_KARACHI, BASE_ADEN }, // Indian
{ BASE_MOMBASA, BASE_CAPETOWN }, // Commonwealth
{ BASE_MANILA, BASE_CAGAYAN }, // Philippines
{ BASE_SINING, 0 }, // Communist China
{ BASE_VANCOUVER, BASE_CANADA }, // Canada

[michaelm75au]

My operational report.
OPERATIONAL REPORT FOR May 06, 42

11th FG/43rd FS CAF is delayed as arrival base is unavailable
2nd USMC Engineer Aviation Battalion arrives at San Diego
1st Middlesex Battalion arrives at Aden
1st Indian Coastal Artillery Regiment arrives at Aden
25th Indian Mountain Gun Regiment arrives at Aden
8th Medium Regiment arrives at Aden
95th Heavy AA Regiment is delayed due to arrival base (Karachi) not available
XXI Indian Corps arrives at Aden
6th Indian Division arrives at Aden
10th Indian Division arrives at Aden
31st Armoured Division arrives at Aden
8th Indian Division arrives at Aden
5th Indian Division arrives at Aden
XXI Corps Engineer Battalion arrives at Aden
44th British Division is delayed due to arrival base (Karachi) not available
2nd British Para Brigade is delayed due to arrival base (Karachi) not available
1st AA Bde is delayed due to arrival base (Karachi) not available
7th SA Armoured Brigade is delayed due to arrival base (Karachi) not available
Invasion Mobilstn Supply Convoy is delayed due to arrival base (Karachi) not available
27th Rhodesian Brigade is delayed due to arrival base (Karachi) not available
Natal Mtd Rifles Regiment is delayed due to arrival base (Karachi) not available
---
OPERATIONAL REPORT FOR May 07, 42

2-Vl.G.III is delayed as arrival base is unavailable
3-Vl.G.III is delayed as arrival base is unavailable
GVT-13 S-2 is delayed as arrival base is unavailable
1st RM Heavy AA Regiment is delayed due to arrival base (Karachi) not available
111th RAF Base Force arrives at Aden
44th British Division arrives at Aden
2nd British Para Brigade arrives at Aden
1st AA Bde arrives at Aden
7th SA Armoured Brigade arrives at Mombasa
Invasion Mobilstn Supply Convoy arrives at Mombasa
27th Rhodesian Brigade arrives at Mombasa
Natal Mtd Rifles Regiment arrives at Mombasa

[GetAssista]

ORIGINAL: michaelm
My operational report.
OPERATIONAL REPORT FOR May 06, 42 ...

I also get those if I run turn as Allies. Problem is I play Japan [;)] and Allies AI does not get those somehow.

ORIGINAL: michaelm
{ BASE_ADEN, BASE_UNITED_KINGDOM }, // British

Yes, and this seems to be botched in the AI code. Aden and UK do not act as reserve bases

[michaelm75au]

The AI can't use off map bases. It moves units to on-map bases. Not sure precisely what bases. I'll check that. I didn't realize the Allies were the AI side.
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This what you are seeing. Unit arrives in Aden. AI then routes to the on-map base (being Karachi for India) in 30 days. Arrives in Karachi -> oh, it is occupied, route to Aden in 15/30 days.
Endless cycle.

This is not something simple, especially for the India/British units. There is no western on-map base they can use. Only other option would be have everything default to US if no national bases for the AI. But have no idea if the AI could use these units properly - AI scripts would be totally wrecked I would think.

[BBfanboy]

MichaelM: { BASE_KUYSYSHEVKA, BASE_SOVIET_UNION },// Soviet

The Russians rarely get activated so people may not have seen any problems with their reinforcement system, but I have been sandboxing with the Russians in play and do not recall any base 'KUYSYSHEVKA' , but there is a close cousin called Kuybyshevka, on the rail line near the south east. It has a fort and sometimes Russian reinforcements show up there.

[GetAssista]

ORIGINAL: michaelm
The AI can't use off map bases. It moves units to on-map bases ...

Ah, that explains everything, thank you. LCU scripts will be bad, no easy solution indeed.
Maybe AI will still use the British ships w/o problems if rerouted? Ships seem to be more independent with respect to scripts and nations differences.

Not a major issue anyway [:)]

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
...do not recall any base 'KUYSYSHEVKA' , but there is a close cousin called Kuybyshevka, on the rail line near the south east. It has a fort and sometimes Russian reinforcements show up there.

I guess this was just an early mistype in the labelling which is really not an issue, and seems to function nicely given spawning reinforcements.

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
...do not recall any base 'KUYSYSHEVKA' , but there is a close cousin called Kuybyshevka, on the rail line near the south east. It has a fort and sometimes Russian reinforcements show up there.

I guess this was just an early mistype in the labelling which is really not an issue, and seems to function nicely given spawning reinforcements.

The reinforcements come in, but I do not know what happens if the Japanese take Kuybyshevka. Does that mean no Russian reinforcements until they retake the base? Do the units spawn at another base?

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
...do not recall any base 'KUYSYSHEVKA' , but there is a close cousin called Kuybyshevka, on the rail line near the south east. It has a fort and sometimes Russian reinforcements show up there.

I guess this was just an early mistype in the labelling which is really not an issue, and seems to function nicely given spawning reinforcements.

The reinforcements come in, but I do not know what happens if the Japanese take Kuybyshevka. Does that mean no Russian reinforcements until they retake the base? Do the units spawn at another base?

The Soviet Union off map base is the secondary base of the Russians as the East Coast is for the US.

I'm playing an active Soviet game now, but I am far from losing their primary reinforcement entry base as they are now two hexes out from Fusan, having conquered Manchuria and Korea.

I wish they had the pilot reserves to begin a bombing campaign in Japan, but I don't even have enough pilots to fill out every squadron.

[GetAssista]

Followup aka OH SH..T I'm F..KED [:D]

Updated to latest beta today with my Japan vs AI game where most of India is Japanese and lazy mopping up of the last pockets and drive towards Lahore was going on. With AI emergency reinforcements stuck in Aden loop. Suddenly recon brings news of 100k troops in Mangalore, the only non Jap port left in all of India. Wha?? Turns out the India whole reinforcement package spawned there, 5 Div + 2 more enroute in several days. Ouch, all of my combat strength is in Oz. Is this WAD?

Also, aussie emergency package is also going to Mangalore, presumably since I have Sydney and Perth? But I don't have Melbourne yet, hmm

[michaelm75au]

At this point, things are too far gone. Normally, as national bases were captured, then the reinforcements would have been routed to the AI standby bases on-map.
The only relative major base left to Allied AI on west-side of map is Mangalore.

[GetAssista]

Ah, so AI reinforcements no longer require only major national bases and anything will do? Good to know, this is more fair and no longer allow dirty tricks that I did with taking Karachi in one turn. And I see ships and airgroups are also rerouting now. Thanks!

I would still revert to previous beta to at least button up my pants and get something to India before they come in force

Edit: one more thing, I see that emergency supply for Oz is also routed to Mangalore?
[7976 Invasion Mobilstn Supply Convoy with 216 AIF inf squad etc]
Something wrong with this as I invaded Southern Oz in April, now is July, and this convoy is long overdue and should've gone to some off-map base anyway?

Edit2: in fact, this transition is kinda more strange. I looked into previous saves and a day before whole package appeared in Mangalore all those Divs were enroute there, presumably rerouted from Aden, but with 4-5-13-13-15 days to arrival. Yet on the D-day all of them appeared there at once.