Relationship effects of decisions?

[76mm]

I'm still playing through the manual, and have played a couple of turns, but I haven't seen a way to know how relationships will be affected BEFORE you make a decision--is this possible?

In other words, after I've made a decision, I find out that I lose X relationship points with General X, and gain Y with General Y--but how can I tell before making the decision? Surely I would have some idea about who I would piss off/please by making certain decisions?

[zakblood]

here's a quote / screenshot from the manual, does a better job than i can or could do, his tips gives good advice as it all depend on other choices as well, regarding results, so in the end there's no right or wrong answer either, just either wrong or right at the time, and next time you play it, it may be the other way around[:D][;)]






if like me you try and stick to the same answers for the same question on a replay, you soon find out it doesn't work as next time you play, the reply is different as something else has changed, so not predictable so imo add's to the re playability[&o]

[mekjak]

Agreed. A lot of the decisions are pretty opaque as to what actual gameplay effect they will have. In some cases that makes sense for role playing, but there are situations where I am completely baffled as to why certain choices made some characters mad and others pleased. Not great when you find out you suddenly can't give focus to a panzer group anymore.

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: zakblood
...regarding results, so in the end there's no right or wrong answer either, just either wrong or right at the time, and next time you play it, it may be the other way around[:D][;)]

That's fine if PP costs, etc. change between games, but it is odd and unrealistic to have absolutely no idea what impact your decisions might have on relations with other humans...

As commander I am not operating in a vacuum, and if I have a bad relationship with someone I might consciously make decisions that could improve that relationship.

Could you imagine going through life without any clue as to how your spouse/boss/subordinates would react if you did X or Y (OK, maybe to expect otherwise from spouses is unrealistic)?

[zakblood]

i couldn't no, but the C&C head of the German command structure liked it seems to have all his commanders infighting and had no idea that this was a bad thing, in his eyes maybe it was good, as if they fought each other, they wouldn't all gang up on him, maybe, so in this point imo it's a good choice and plays well, in real life in the real world you wouldn't want it, then again that's why they failed, so as you have to juggle this in the game, it does imo only mind you, speaking as a tester and low end player, work as a rpg sim, some will like it, some will love it, others may dislike or hate it, that's why the option to not use it is in the game as well.

[stonestriker]

ORIGINAL: 76mm

ORIGINAL: zakblood
...regarding results, so in the end there's no right or wrong answer either, just either wrong or right at the time, and next time you play it, it may be the other way around[:D][;)]

That's fine if PP costs, etc. change between games, but it is odd and unrealistic to have absolutely no idea what impact your decisions might have on relations with other humans...

As commander I am not operating in a vacuum, and if I have a bad relationship with someone I might consciously make decisions that could improve that relationship.

Could you imagine going through life without any clue as to how your spouse/boss/subordinates would react if you did X or Y (OK, maybe to expect otherwise from spouses is unrealistic)?

Have you read the latest dev blog (http://www.vrdesigns.nl/)? The comparison to your spouse might not be far off

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: zakblood
...liked it seems to have all his commanders infighting and had no idea that this was a bad thing, in his eyes maybe it was good, as if they fought each other, they wouldn't all gang up on him, maybe, so in this point imo it's a good choice and plays well, in real life in the real world you wouldn't want it, then again that's why they failed...

I'm not arguing about the inclusion of bureaucratic infighting, but it sure seems that if you're in the midst of this stuff before you make decisions you'd have some idea of how they might affect your relationships with others.

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: stonestriker
The comparison to your spouse might not be far off

Ahem, I don't have a spouse, I included that for the benefit of those that do!

[stonestriker]

ORIGINAL: 76mm

ORIGINAL: stonestriker
The comparison to your spouse might not be far off

Ahem, I don't have a spouse, I included that for the benefit of those that do!

'Your' as in Halders wife. This is a RPG-wargame after all

[zakblood]

i have one, and tbh never have a clue what's going off in her head, any decision regarding the other better half is also pure guess work, but that's maybe off topic as well [:D][;)]

but i understand your comments 76mm, hopefully a developer will chip in with some insight as well soon[;)]

[mekjak]

It's not just relationship changes either. I had no idea what the any of the rail infrastructure decisions do (apparently if infrastructure is bad it reduces the effective number of trains that can operate on that route?) until a few turns after I had already made the decision. The game doesn't tell you the effects of leaving your security divisions on mop up duty (reduces the chance of divisions starting the turn with reduced AP which simulates being slowed down by remnant Soviet units) until after you have already made the decision, and that's only if you pay close attention to the daily logs. If you don't choose a railway conversion route at the beginning does the AI pick one for you? I have no idea. A handful of events, like the one about blitzkrieg fuel efficiency, have a helpful explanation of the actual gameplay effects of each choice but most don't.

Another thing, why should I care about relations with characters like Goebbels for example? His propaganda events always cost a ton of PP but I don't see a downside to declining them. Is this one of the role playing event trees that doesn't have an actual effect on the game? Maybe you should tell the player or reduce the PP cost if that's the case.

Don't get me wrong - I love the idea and presentation of the decision system and this kind of innovation is what computer wargames need more of, but at the end of the day it's not good design IMO to force the player to spend precious PP for unknown effects or pay no PP and suffer unknown consequences.

[willgamer]

For me, having to decide without all the facts mimics the real situation rather well. Different gaming skills, knowledge of history, real life experiences will inform how you decide. You are presented with all the facts that staff has, including backgrounders most of the time, on the other personalities. So what's your gut telling you?

Give it your best shot and live with it. It's the opposite of "spreadsheet" war gaming that we all complain about!

If this kind of immersion (RPWG- role playing war game) is not your thing, you can always just turn it off. However I consider RPWG to be a significant new breakthrough in the art of war gaming.

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: willgamer
For me, having to decide without all the facts mimics the real situation rather well. Different gaming skills, knowledge of history, real life experiences will inform how you decide. You are presented with all the facts that staff has, including backgrounders most of the time, on the other personalities. So what's your gut telling you?

Dunno...for me there is a big difference between having to decide without ALL the facts and having to decide without ANY of the facts, as is often the case here...you're presented with some options without any context or even a vague notion of the consequences. My gut tells me to simply flip a coin, because my decision won't be much better.

I've only played a turn into the game so far, so maybe "situational awareness" will pick up as the game progresses, we'll see.

[Santini]

ORIGINAL: 76mm

ORIGINAL: willgamer
For me, having to decide without all the facts mimics the real situation rather well. Different gaming skills, knowledge of history, real life experiences will inform how you decide. You are presented with all the facts that staff has, including backgrounders most of the time, on the other personalities. So what's your gut telling you?

Dunno...for me there is a big difference between having to decide without ALL the facts and having to decide without ANY of the facts, as is often the case here...you're presented with some options without any context or even a vague notion of the consequences. My gut tells me to simply flip a coin, because my decision won't be much better.

I've only played a turn into the game so far, so maybe "situational awareness" will pick up as the game progresses, we'll see.

I agree.

Having a list of the affected parties with a ++, +, +/-, -, -- would help

[Aurelian]

ORIGINAL: zakblood

i couldn't no, but the C&C head of the German command structure liked it seems to have all his commanders infighting and had no idea that this was a bad thing, in his eyes maybe it was good, as if they fought each other, they wouldn't all gang up on him, maybe, so in this point imo it's a good choice and plays well, in real life in the real world you wouldn't want it, then again that's why they failed, so as you have to juggle this in the game, it does imo only mind you, speaking as a tester and low end player, work as a rpg sim, some will like it, some will love it, others may dislike or hate it, that's why the option to not use it is in the game as well.

I agree.

[76mm]

Actually, I think I found something useful; if you are making a decision, there is a box on the right with various items listed; one of them called "Option Cost Breakdown" seems to list various factors, including relationship results.

It's a bit opaque, but I think that's what this item shows...

[Vic]

ORIGINAL: 76mm

Actually, I think I found something useful; if you are making a decision, there is a box on the right with various items listed; one of them called "Option Cost Breakdown" seems to list various factors, including relationship results.

It's a bit opaque, but I think that's what this item shows...

In fact it show relationship modifiers for the PP cost of the different choices available to you.

[KenchiSulla]

So far (about 5 turns into the game now as Germans) it helps me to place myself in the shoes of the parties involved in the discussion... You can read the notes / memo's they sent you in one of the tabs. A good indication of how they'll react to your decision...

[willgamer]

ORIGINAL: Vic

ORIGINAL: 76mm

Actually, I think I found something useful; if you are making a decision, there is a box on the right with various items listed; one of them called "Option Cost Breakdown" seems to list various factors, including relationship results.

It's a bit opaque, but I think that's what this item shows...

In fact it show relationship modifiers for the PP cost of the different choices available to you.

The truth is, there is A LOT of relevant in game reading that is built into this game. Quite different to extrapolating everything you need to know from the numbers.

The staff reports are not just chrome; ditto for the radio reports.

The first few turns I spend more time reading in game than pushing counters.

[Barthheart]

ORIGINAL: willgamer

ORIGINAL: Vic

ORIGINAL: 76mm

Actually, I think I found something useful; if you are making a decision, there is a box on the right with various items listed; one of them called "Option Cost Breakdown" seems to list various factors, including relationship results.

It's a bit opaque, but I think that's what this item shows...

In fact it show relationship modifiers for the PP cost of the different choices available to you.

The truth is, there is A LOT of relevant in game reading that is built into this game. Quite different to extrapolating everything you need to know from the numbers.

The staff reports are not just chrome; ditto for the radio reports.

The first few turns I spend more time reading in game than pushing counters.

+1