Allied Submarines - strategy and tactics

[Paavel]

Hello guys, I've reading the forum since December 2012 and it's nice to write my first post here. Coincidence between my first PBEM game (also first in my life, I had never played WitP before, even against AI) and first visit on forum is something obvious. Learning through playing seems to be painful, but quite effective.

After almost 3 years we had beginning of April 1943, I need to describe the situation:

- Borneo and Sumatra are Japanese, Java is still in Allied hands, well fortified, fullfilled with heavy bombers and fighters (nearly 600 planes on whole island).
- Collapse of Japanese oil industry, Palembang is burned to the ground, Balikpapan, Tarakan and other too, only on NW Sumatra there is a few of it. Opponent sails really economically and as he said - he cannot has active all factories in the same time.
- Massive Imperial (one with rising sun of course) offensive on Indian - Burmese border, stalemate on Ceylon (50k+ Japanese troops but without artillery and armoured vehicles, many of them were sunk on transport ships)
- Eastern New Guinea (retaken from Japan on January 1943) with Trobriands are in Allied hands
- Massacre on sea - something about 1200 Allied ships and warships sunk, Japanese - ~150
- From CVs only Saratoga, Hornet and freshly arrived British one are alive, CVEs - three, Japan hasn't lost any
- Dangerous sea routes - minimini-KB or few cruisers raided convoys even between USA and PH or on the east from New Zealand
- Better situation in the air - I've advantage on "shot down airplanes" about 1300+ planes
- Manchuria is in Soviet hands (suddenly USSR was activated, short month - lenght war and truce)

You may ask me - why I'm replacing war reporter on the War Room?

I've got problems with proper use of Allied submarines. I had lost just 6, so I have plenty of them, however accuracy and frequency of torpedo attacks are really unsatisfying. Submarines sunk just 44 ships through 16 months of war - biggest one was LSD at 9th December, few AKs, oilers, 2 destroyers, 3 patrol vessels and that's all. In the same time Japanese submarines sunk almost 300 and lost 26.

What have I done before from my private COMSUBPAC?

- I remember about replacing commanders (for much better than 30 naval, they are cleaning toilets in San Diego), Naval skills and Agressive are on "normal" level.
- Submarines stay on hex for few rounds or patrol two - three adjacent hexes, they are operating singly
- "Minefield games" isn't unknown word, sometimes few of Allied commanders have orders about laying minefield somewhere near Singapore, Georgetown, Balikpapan, Rabaul, even Kyushu (and as I heard from the opponent - almost 60 ships were damaged from mines, efficiency is 4 times better than in case of torpedo attacks)
- Submarines are often used as scouts - "casus Ceylon" proves their efficiency on that field, without few succesful attacks (magnificent spree, really, 8 attacks without detonator problems, mishits, etc had been unknown before)Japanese could land with artillery, not peashooters.
- They guards important straits (especially near New Guinea or ports (3-4 near Truk, Rabaul, etc)
- Although they are under air attack quite often - submarines are rarely damaged, I still has a regularity in my mind, that submarine's captain without ASW above his head fights much, much better.
- Almost every submarine is modernized.

What's your tips guys to improve submarine's efficiency? I'm really grateful for any word.

[GetAssista]

Hey and welcome to the forum!

You are doing things right it seems. You are just arriving to the point where US Mk14 torpedoes will become less flawed. From start and through 1942 they have 80% dud rate, and the majority of your subs are USN named class models using those Mk14s.
Since your opponent has his DEI oil centers busted he is rather limited in sailing ships I guess, so you naturally won't encounter a lot of merchant/tanker targets on the standard routes from DEI to Japan. Not to mention Japan already lost the game, because the fuel will run out. But while you are at driving it home, you can happily forget economic goals and employ all your subs in counter CV/SCTF operations.

[Ambassador]

He left Java in your hands but invaded Ceylon ? I fail to understand his logic... Is there a story behind this ?

[BBfanboy]

The ASW (or search) aircraft you mentioned are detecting your subs, which allows his TFs to avoid them, even if they are in the same hex. Roll the cursor over your sub TF and if the detection level (D/L) is not 0, you need to move them at least 3 hexes away for a turn or two.
Make sure your subs have routing orders for "Absolute" threat tolerance so they will attack escorted TFs.

Use your smaller subs like the S-# boats and the Dutch and British ones in shallow waters. In 1943 Japan starts getting some effective ASW ships called "E"s so your subs in shallow water need to be small and nimble to escape attacks.

[Alfred]

ORIGINAL: Paavel

Hello guys, I've reading the forum since December 2012 and it's nice to write my first post here. Coincidence between my first PBEM game (also first in my life, I had never played WitP before, even against AI) and first visit on forum is something obvious. Learning through playing seems to be painful, but quite effective.

After almost 3 years we had beginning of April 1943, I need to describe the situation:

- Borneo and Sumatra are Japanese, Java is still in Allied hands, well fortified, fullfilled with heavy bombers and fighters (nearly 600 planes on whole island).
- Collapse of Japanese oil industry, Palembang is burned to the ground, Balikpapan, Tarakan and other too, only on NW Sumatra there is a few of it. Opponent sails really economically and as he said - he cannot has active all factories in the same time.
- Massive Imperial (one with rising sun of course) offensive on Indian - Burmese border, stalemate on Ceylon (50k+ Japanese troops but without artillery and armoured vehicles, many of them were sunk on transport ships)
- Eastern New Guinea (retaken from Japan on January 1943) with Trobriands are in Allied hands
- Massacre on sea - something about 1200 Allied ships and warships sunk, Japanese - ~150
- From CVs only Saratoga, Hornet and freshly arrived British one are alive, CVEs - three, Japan hasn't lost any
- Dangerous sea routes - minimini-KB or few cruisers raided convoys even between USA and PH or on the east from New Zealand
- Better situation in the air - I've advantage on "shot down airplanes" about 1300+ planes
- Manchuria is in Soviet hands (suddenly USSR was activated, short month - lenght war and truce)

You may ask me - why I'm replacing war reporter on the War Room?

I've got problems with proper use of Allied submarines. I had lost just 6, so I have plenty of them, however accuracy and frequency of torpedo attacks are really unsatisfying. Submarines sunk just 44 ships through 16 months of war - biggest one was LSD at 9th December, few AKs, oilers, 2 destroyers, 3 patrol vessels and that's all. In the same time Japanese submarines sunk almost 300 and lost 26.

What have I done before from my private COMSUBPAC?

- I remember about replacing commanders (for much better than 30 naval, they are cleaning toilets in San Diego), Naval skills and Agressive are on "normal" level.
- Submarines stay on hex for few rounds or patrol two - three adjacent hexes, they are operating singly
- "Minefield games" isn't unknown word, sometimes few of Allied commanders have orders about laying minefield somewhere near Singapore, Georgetown, Balikpapan, Rabaul, even Kyushu (and as I heard from the opponent - almost 60 ships were damaged from mines, efficiency is 4 times better than in case of torpedo attacks)
- Submarines are often used as scouts - "casus Ceylon" proves their efficiency on that field, without few succesful attacks (magnificent spree, really, 8 attacks without detonator problems, mishits, etc had been unknown before)
- They guards important straits (especially near New Guinea or ports (3-4 near Truk, Rabaul, etc)
- Although they are under air attack quite often - submarines are rarely damaged, I still has a regularity in my mind, that submarine's captain without ASW above his head fights much, much better.
- Almost every submarine is modernized.

What's your tips guys to improve submarine's efficiency? I'm really grateful for any word.

1. Do not use Allied subs to guard important straits. That is a defensive task which is not suitable. Important straits should be "guarded" by aircraft and surface combat task forces, both of which have a much greater reaction range than do sub task forces.

2. Do not place sub task forces under "remain on station" orders. Doing so negates any patrol and reaction responses.

3. Avoid as much as possible sending sub task forces to operate where enemy air ASW coverage is strong. If you do send them there, the sub TF should be given a 3 point barrier to patrol with zero lingering at each barrier point.

4. Set your barrier points to be the distance the sub TF can move at cruise speed each 12 hour period. This will help to shake off the enemy DL on your sub TF.

5. A sub minelaying TF will very rarely attack enemy ships. Do not expect them to drop off their mines and then attack the enemy.

6. Pay careful attention to the distance between the patrol location and the sub TF home port. Aim for the distance to be no greater than 25% of the endurance. If the distance is greater than 33.3% you are wasting too much time transiting to and from the patrol zone.

7. Number one thing above all else, set patrol zones where you also have air naval search operating. Unless yhou can DL enemy task forces, your subs will rarely find a target to attack on their own cognisance.

8. Just like point 1 above, use of subs as scouts is also sub optimal if the objective is to sink enemy ships.

9. Subs which are slower than the enemy ships will rarely be able to get into position to launch an attack. This is a major factor why points 1 and 8 are sub optimal usage of subs as those are situations where the most likely enemy ships encountered will be combat ships which are faster than the subs.

10. The desired primary skill level for your sub commander is "naval". The secondary skill is "aggression". Aim for 60+ in "naval" skill, the higher the better. The naval skill rating must not be below the aggression skill rating.

11. American sub torpedo problems do not stop being a problem until September 1943.

12. Avoid placing sub patrols in shallow water. They are much more vulnerable to enemy counter measures. Focus on deep water locations.

Alfred

[Mac Linehan]

Gents-

Excellent discussion.

Alfred-

Thank You for your explicit guidance; I have learned much.

Mac

[ckk]

Alfred

Thanks for the tutorial. I am confused about #1 point. If you can't cover straits with sea or air cover, is not using subs a necessity?
Particularly in the early war?

Chuck

[Alfred]

ORIGINAL: ckk

Alfred

Thanks for the tutorial. I am confused about #1 point. If you can't cover straits with sea or air cover, is not using subs a necessity?
Particularly in the early war?

Chuck

The OP specifically stated;

I've got problems with proper use of Allied submarines. I had lost just 6, so I have plenty of them, however accuracy and frequency of torpedo attacks are really unsatisfying. Submarines sunk just 44 ships through 16 months of war - biggest one was LSD at 9th December, few AKs, oilers, 2 destroyers, 3 patrol vessels and that's all. In the same time Japanese submarines sunk almost 300 and lost 26.

and wanted to improve the efficiency of his sub operations.

My post addressed the efficiency issue.

In war sometimes the best course of action is not the most efficient. Clearly if air and surface naval assets are not an option and it is imperative to cover "that" strait, the deployment of subs is an option. But let's not confuse AE, the game, with a real war situation. IRL subs have their own means to locate and track enemy targets but in AE those means do not exist. Which means that in AE the cost benefit ratio is even worse and the opportunity cost is therefore higher.

In AE there is never a situation where doing something is "a necessity". There is always an opportunity cost. What the opponent is doing has to be factored in to one's own actions and usually there is more than one viable response to counter an opponent's actions. Are there times when covering a strait with subs only is a good deployment? The answer is yes but don't expect it to be an efficient use, in terms of sinking enemy ships, of your subs.

Alfred

[BBfanboy]

It should also be mentioned that one should not expect that subs will see whatever enemy passes through the hex. Subs are very iffy as pickets.

[crsutton]

Your low losses and low kill numbers tell me that you are not being aggressive enough with your subs. You will get plenty in the end and can afford to lose a few more. Alfred's points lay down the basic good practice of your sub commanders. But there are times when you should consider bending these rules. If I see a TF of tankers of fat warships going into an enemy port, I sure and hell am going to send a sub in there for a look around. I will trade a sub for a Jap DD any day. Your subs are remarkable durable and safe even in a dangerous place. I also have learned that it is a waste of time to go after the Japanese merchant fleet. A good player knows how to protect them. I use 1/3 of my subs for this purpose and the others are working at hunting warships. You get fewer kills this way but the ones you get matter more. Size a Japanese forward base and swamp it with subs. I promise you will see a lot of targets in a while. Put two lucky torpedoes into the Kaga and she is out of the war for six months. That is big in my book.

[ckk]

Alfred

Agreed. There are always choices. "necessity" came from frustration.

Thanks again

[paradigmblue]

ORIGINAL: Alfred

ORIGINAL: Paavel

Hello guys, I've reading the forum since December 2012 and it's nice to write my first post here. Coincidence between my first PBEM game (also first in my life, I had never played WitP before, even against AI) and first visit on forum is something obvious. Learning through playing seems to be painful, but quite effective.

After almost 3 years we had beginning of April 1943, I need to describe the situation:

- Borneo and Sumatra are Japanese, Java is still in Allied hands, well fortified, fullfilled with heavy bombers and fighters (nearly 600 planes on whole island).
- Collapse of Japanese oil industry, Palembang is burned to the ground, Balikpapan, Tarakan and other too, only on NW Sumatra there is a few of it. Opponent sails really economically and as he said - he cannot has active all factories in the same time.
- Massive Imperial (one with rising sun of course) offensive on Indian - Burmese border, stalemate on Ceylon (50k+ Japanese troops but without artillery and armoured vehicles, many of them were sunk on transport ships)
- Eastern New Guinea (retaken from Japan on January 1943) with Trobriands are in Allied hands
- Massacre on sea - something about 1200 Allied ships and warships sunk, Japanese - ~150
- From CVs only Saratoga, Hornet and freshly arrived British one are alive, CVEs - three, Japan hasn't lost any
- Dangerous sea routes - minimini-KB or few cruisers raided convoys even between USA and PH or on the east from New Zealand
- Better situation in the air - I've advantage on "shot down airplanes" about 1300+ planes
- Manchuria is in Soviet hands (suddenly USSR was activated, short month - lenght war and truce)

You may ask me - why I'm replacing war reporter on the War Room?

I've got problems with proper use of Allied submarines. I had lost just 6, so I have plenty of them, however accuracy and frequency of torpedo attacks are really unsatisfying. Submarines sunk just 44 ships through 16 months of war - biggest one was LSD at 9th December, few AKs, oilers, 2 destroyers, 3 patrol vessels and that's all. In the same time Japanese submarines sunk almost 300 and lost 26.

What have I done before from my private COMSUBPAC?

- I remember about replacing commanders (for much better than 30 naval, they are cleaning toilets in San Diego), Naval skills and Agressive are on "normal" level.
- Submarines stay on hex for few rounds or patrol two - three adjacent hexes, they are operating singly
- "Minefield games" isn't unknown word, sometimes few of Allied commanders have orders about laying minefield somewhere near Singapore, Georgetown, Balikpapan, Rabaul, even Kyushu (and as I heard from the opponent - almost 60 ships were damaged from mines, efficiency is 4 times better than in case of torpedo attacks)
- Submarines are often used as scouts - "casus Ceylon" proves their efficiency on that field, without few succesful attacks (magnificent spree, really, 8 attacks without detonator problems, mishits, etc had been unknown before)
- They guards important straits (especially near New Guinea or ports (3-4 near Truk, Rabaul, etc)
- Although they are under air attack quite often - submarines are rarely damaged, I still has a regularity in my mind, that submarine's captain without ASW above his head fights much, much better.
- Almost every submarine is modernized.

What's your tips guys to improve submarine's efficiency? I'm really grateful for any word.

1. Do not use Allied subs to guard important straits. That is a defensive task which is not suitable. Important straits should be "guarded" by aircraft and surface combat task forces, both of which have a much greater reaction range than do sub task forces.

2. Do not place sub task forces under "remain on station" orders. Doing so negates any patrol and reaction responses.

3. Avoid as much as possible sending sub task forces to operate where enemy air ASW coverage is strong. If you do send them there, the sub TF should be given a 3 point barrier to patrol with zero lingering at each barrier point.

4. Set your barrier points to be the distance the sub TF can move at cruise speed each 12 hour period. This will help to shake off the enemy DL on your sub TF.

5. A sub minelaying TF will very rarely attack enemy ships. Do not expect them to drop off their mines and then attack the enemy.

6. Pay careful attention to the distance between the patrol location and the sub TF home port. Aim for the distance to be no greater than 25% of the endurance. If the distance is greater than 33.3% you are wasting too much time transiting to and from the patrol zone.

7. Number one thing above all else, set patrol zones where you also have air naval search operating. Unless yhou can DL enemy task forces, your subs will rarely find a target to attack on their own cognisance.

8. Just like point 1 above, use of subs as scouts is also sub optimal if the objective is to sink enemy ships.

9. Subs which are slower than the enemy ships will rarely be able to get into position to launch an attack. This is a major factor why points 1 and 8 are sub optimal usage of subs as those are situations where the most likely enemy ships encountered will be combat ships which are faster than the subs.

10. The desired primary skill level for your sub commander is "naval". The secondary skill is "aggression". Aim for 60+ in "naval" skill, the higher the better. The naval skill rating must not be below the aggression skill rating.

11. American sub torpedo problems do not stop being a problem until September 1943.

12. Avoid placing sub patrols in shallow water. They are much more vulnerable to enemy counter measures. Focus on deep water locations.

Alfred

That was an incredibly helpful post Alfred, thank you.

[John B.]

I've found success in the sub war thus far in the three games I've played. In the current one for example, it's April 1943 and I've hit 123 AKs, 23 TKs, 25, AKLs etc... (this is exploded torpedo hits so it does not count the duds). And, yes, I'm a little OCD with my chart recording each hit and the sub that did it. My humble advice would be as follows:

1. You know where the ships have to go so put your subs there. For example, you know that most ships have to go to big ports in Japan so concentrate subs there. Other good places are at straits (such as north of the Philippines or heading north from Balikpapan and Tarakan).

2. Another good place for subs are major bases. Find the big ports and stick a sub or two there. Again, you know that merchants have to show up to resupply and that major warships have to rearm there so you will get lots of chances. This also holds true for places with large drydocks. You know that damaged BBs and CVs need to go to those and a damaged ship is much easier to sink. Just one extra CV per game can make this all worthwhile.

3. Avoid shallow water like the plague. The smaller boats may be more nimble, but, my experience is that getting caught in shallow water means, at the very least, serious damage. There are plenty of deep water places to get at IJN ships.

4. If there is a Japanese invasion of India or Australia then you know it will take lots of resupply and reinforcement efforts. Even better, he is heading into your search zones which gives your subs extra detection. You know what ports he has so, line up your subs that that he has to pass through several layers of boats to get there.

5. similarly, you know where you're going to have an invasion so pre-position boats around the target ahead of time. That way, you have shots at reinforcement/resupply and at any relief forces that can be heading in. I think subs are very helpful for finishing off wounded capital ships so you want them around if you think that there will be a carrier battle. Think of the "double tap" rule from Zombieland. You're pretty sure that CV is dead, but one more hit to make sure.

6. Prior to 1943 use your Dutch subs aggressively. They don't have torpedo problems!

7. Someone posted on one of my AARs to not have overlapping patrol zones. So, if your setting up a sub barrier outside of Tokyo for example, have one sub patrol three hexes, another sub patrol the three hexes south of that etc..

8. Always update your subs as soon as possible. In my limited experience the December 1942 upgrade makes a big difference in the number of times subs find surface TFs. I suspect that the upgrades frequently involve better electronics giving the subs greater detection capabilities.

9. Don't really waste time using subs as transports. They can't shift enough supplies to make a difference.

10. Remember the little "dot" islands that the Japanese rarely capture. If you have a badly damaged sub and you're near one of those you can disband the sub there and hope that it can drain some of the flooding and fix some of the systems damage and then make it home. This way, you might be able to save a few subs even if they are deep in enemy territory.

I hope this helps!

[Major Shane]

Does anyone follow the U.S. tactic of 3 subs working together to attack the same Japanese convoys? IRL Lockwood's operational concept had mixed result. In the game I think it would look like 3 SS with overlapping patrol hexes, not 3 SS in a single sub-TF.

I just finished "The War Below: The Story of Three Submarines That Battled Japan" by James Scott. It appears the U.S. version of a wolf pack had mixed results but could have severe consequences for a convoy.

I am going to try and emulate this in my game vs. AI. I like to stay close to history.

[BBfanboy]

I have been using my subs in pairs and seem to get an extra attack about 75% of the time when the TF engages the enemy. I tried using three subs but they seemed to not work together nearly as well. How do you coordinate when you can't communicate while underwater??

I check the leader stats of the sub commanders and give the one with the best leadership skill the command of the sub TF.

When subs are in pairs, the second sub seems to be able to help the other if it is heavily damaged and the TF is limping to base.

The flip side of pairing up subs is that you cannot cover as much area, so I use them where I am fairly sure the pickings will be good.

[Major Shane]

Thanks for the help.

[Major Shane]

Thanks for the help.

[Jonathan Pollard]

Is there any way to order a sub to follow or try to intercept a spotted enemy task force?

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: Jonathan Pollard

Is there any way to order a sub to follow or try to intercept a spotted enemy task force?

Nope. The "Follow" command only works with friendly TFs, and I am not even sure subs can use it. Certainly nothing can follow a sub by order.
The best you can do is set the react setting to 1, and the sub TF MAY react to a well-spotted TF in the next hex. I think this only happens when the enemy TF ends its movement there, rather than passing through.

[Lowpe]

I didn't see it mentioned, but be careful with the 13 knot (?) minelayer Yank subs that can convert into troop carriers. They are a lot of fun, and you only get three of them.