CV TFs and reaction - is this normal?

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Lokasenna
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CV TFs and reaction - is this normal?

Post by Lokasenna »

So we all (should) know that CV TFs will react towards other CV TFs. I just have a simple question.

Is this supposed to be able to occur more than one time each turn (assuming 1-day turns)? In my most recent turn, I had 4 air combat TFs. The enemy had at least 4 as well. We started 7 hexes (or more) away.

All of my TFs ended up 1 hex away from 2 of his. They reacted multiple times, and appeared to try to react more times than they moved as I saw the messages of them "reacting to enemy TF (range 6)" but the move would have taken them into the same hex occupied by the enemy TFs they already reacted to...so they didn't move.

I understand and agree with the 1-hex reaction. But is it really supposed to be able to occur multiple times? This turn was ridiculous.

I don't have a fancy Dropbox setup with automatic screenshot deposits into a folder every time I press Print Screen, but here's what it looked like before reactions (you can see my CAP destroying a Judy). In the next post I'll show where everything ended up, albeit not very well...

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RE: CV TFs and reaction - is this normal?

Post by Lokasenna »

Going to try my best to explain this without posting a screenshot of the next turn, as it would show everything of mine... this screenshot is taken while the combat replay is "paused" with combat results up, covering most of the screen, however you can still see the relative positions of the TFs.

The sub at the top of this screen is the same sub from the previous. You can see that enemy TFs reacted at least 1 hex (it looks like the TF that ended up 2 hexes farther east may have reacted towards my air TF further to the southeast, in the previous screen).

During the PM phase, my 3 TFs sitting on the southern edge of this screenshot all reacted 1 hex NW, towards the enemy TF(s) in the middle, just 4 hexes away. This was at least their 4th reaction move. The leading TF had already reacted 4 times.

I'm just trying to understand if it's WAD for CV forces to begin the air phase 6 hexes apart and end up right next to each other once strikes are launched. It seems absurd.

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RE: CV TFs and reaction - is this normal?

Post by Lokasenna »

Eh, screw potential op sec breaches. Here is a screenshot when I load the orders phase after the replay.

Every hex with an enemy TF in it contains at least 1 Air Combat TF for the IJN.

You can see that none of my Air Combat TFs remain in the hex outside of Ulithi. For the record, all 4 were set to follow one of those SCTFs.

All 4 of my Air Combat TFs are in the hex immediately adjacent to the hex with 2+ enemy Air Combat TFs. This view more clearly shows that my forces reacted 4 times with a move (and potentially more times without moving because it would've taken them into the hex with the enemy air TFs), and my opponent's forces reacted at least once as well.

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RE: CV TFs and reaction - is this normal?

Post by HansBolter »

I've seen multiple one hex reactions in a single phase many times.

I've had groups of CV TFs end up strung out across three hexes dues to multiple one hex reactions by only some of the TFs.

Can recall seeing two one hex reactions in a single phase but can't recall ever seeing three one hex reactions.

So my answer is yea, it appears to be supposed to happen.
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RE: CV TFs and reaction - is this normal?

Post by JocMeister »

Seems pretty common. So I do whatever I can to avoid CV reactions.
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RE: CV TFs and reaction - is this normal?

Post by Lowpe »

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

Seems pretty common. So I do whatever I can to avoid CV reactions.

Just keep them in port, Jocke. Then no worries.[:)]

Yeah, I have seen CV forces react multiple times. I believe the more op points left, the more likely you will have multiple reactions one each air phase....not sure though.

What was the damage done?

Rules:Air Combat TF’s that have not aborted their Mission and have at least 30 aircraft may
automatically move one hex towards an enemy air combat TF after each Air Search Phase.
Allied Task Forces between 2 and 4 hexes of the enemy will automatically move and Japanese
Task Forces either 4 or 5 hexes from the enemy will automatically move. TF’s with a Max React
set to 0 will not make this move. A very aggressive AC TF commander can override this.
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RE: CV TFs and reaction - is this normal?

Post by Lokasenna »

ORIGINAL: Lowpe
ORIGINAL: JocMeister

Seems pretty common. So I do whatever I can to avoid CV reactions.

Just keep them in port, Jocke. Then no worries.[:)]

I mean, that's the only real option if you expect at most a 2-hex closing of the gap and end up with 5.
ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Yeah, I have seen CV forces react multiple times. I believe the more op points left, the more likely you will have multiple reactions one each air phase....not sure though.

What was the damage done?

Rules:Air Combat TF’s that have not aborted their Mission and have at least 30 aircraft may
automatically move one hex towards an enemy air combat TF after each Air Search Phase.
Allied Task Forces between 2 and 4 hexes of the enemy will automatically move and Japanese
Task Forces either 4 or 5 hexes from the enemy will automatically move. TF’s with a Max React
set to 0 will not make this move. A very aggressive AC TF commander can override this.

It says ONE HEX (after each air search phase) in that quote. You pulled that from the manual?

But another bit of that is that we weren't within 2-4 hexes of the IJN, and the IJN wasn't within 4 or 5 hexes of us. We started 6 hexes apart, and ended up 1. The manual in no way supports that. I know there are old threads on this, but the discussion might be in AARs or something and I wasn't able to find much of anything for results.


What happened was.... well, it didn't end well for the IJN. I lost a single CVE with another crippled. However, apparently weather was a factor in the battle, and had my opponent's strikes been concentrated (and not fragmented) on TF that was left dangling 1 hex from the enemy, this could've been awful. They only had 130 of the 600 planes allocated to CAP. They could've been obliterated.

Also, reaction was set to 0 on every one of the TFs. Commanders were:
VADM Towers, John Henry (Aggression 53, CVEs)
RADM Clark, J.J. "Jocko" (Aggression 72, CVs/CVLs)
RADM Radford, Arthur Wm (Aggression 49, CVEs)
RADM Sherman, Frederick (Aggression 74, CVs/CVLs)

I mean I suppose it's possible that the Aggression 49 and 53 guys just rolled really aggressively and reacted despite the 0... or what I think more likely is that it doesn't matter if you have react 0 set or not [;)]. They just seem to react always.

Situation prior to this turn was all 4 TFs were 1 hex SW of Guam. The SCTF they were set to follow was at Guam. Direct routing and absolute threat tolerance on the SCTF and Towers/Clark, but the TFs with Radford and Sherman had Normal routing/threat set (oops...I prefer Direct/Absolute for as much control as possible over my TFs).

The SCTF was set to move 8 hexes to the position it ended up in. Presumably the CV/CVE TFs moved 7 hexes. Speed was set to mission. It's conceivable that they moved there in one phase, but I would need to really pay attention to the replay to see if I can tell (sometimes you can see where TFs are mid-replay due to being detected by something).

I'm debating figuring out a video capture (or just doing it "cheaply" via holding my phone up) with messages on slow, so you can see exactly what I saw happening. I saw multiple reaction messages with different ranges, so it appears as if they were reacting to multiple TFs and that's why we ended up so close together.


Still doesn't explain why the IJN reacted from 6 hexes away, though...
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RE: CV TFs and reaction - is this normal?

Post by crsutton »

Yes, especially if the leader has a high aggression rating.
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RE: CV TFs and reaction - is this normal?

Post by Lokasenna »

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Yeah, I have seen CV forces react multiple times. I believe the more op points left, the more likely you will have multiple reactions one each air phase....not sure though.

From night phase search sightings on my TFs, they definitely moved at just cruise speed - only 4 hexes for the SCTF, and only 3 for the air TFs following it. There's a clear point in the replay (and messages in the text file) that show this. So they moved at only cruise speed for at least the first movement phase of the day.

The replay also clearly shows how far apart we started before this turn, as there are sub combats in the vicinity before DLs were reset.

There is another sub combat before the air search phases that shows where our respective TFs ended up. The sub attacks/is sighted by escorts in one of his air TFs. It's 6 hexes away from mine.

When I got to the reactions part of the air phase, it clearly shows my TFs reacting to different enemy TFs.

Carrier TF 16 reacting to enemy carriers (range 5)
*moves it a hex, which brings it within 5 hexes of another IJN TF*
Carrier TF 16 reacting to enemy carriers (range 5)
*moves it a hex*
Carrier TF 16 reacting to enemy carriers (range 4)
*moves it another hex*
Carrier TF 16 reacting to enemy carriers (range 4)
*moves it another hex*

The other 3 TFs are then moved.


I'm definitely going to capture this using my phone, if I can, so I can upload a short YouTube to clearly demonstrate this. It's better than screenshots because of the fast nature of the replay, and my not being able to change the speed of the messages from 0.5 seconds to re-watch... but it's holiday party night, and I won't be home until late tonight. Perhaps uploading it tonight, or else tomorrow morning.
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RE: CV TFs and reaction - is this normal?

Post by JeffroK »

Did you win the battle????
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RE: CV TFs and reaction - is this normal?

Post by witpqs »

In surface combats I have many times seen multiple reacts, so I assume it is valid for carriers too.
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RE: CV TFs and reaction - is this normal?

Post by Dili »

Yes , supposedely every time an enemy TF moves your can move(react) too. This was one most important changes from WITP where only if 2 surfaces TF ended up in same hex there was combat. So i guess this happens with Air TF too and it is correct.

Note that you have routing and thread tolerance options too.

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RE: CV TFs and reaction - is this normal?

Post by JocMeister »

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
I mean, that's the only real option if you expect at most a 2-hex closing of the gap and end up with 5.

Pretty much. I had some horrible reactions (mostly in AI games luckily) where the TF reacts very long distances disregarding trivial things like minefields, enemy LBA and whatnot.

Erik had some really bad unwanted reactions is our game where parts of the KB reacted and others didn´t. Personally I leave as little as possible to the AI. Giving it control of my CVs is something I rather avoid! [X(]

It seems using the "follow TF" overrides any reactions. This is the only thing (so far knock on wood) that seems to guarantee you won´t get a reaction. Havn´t tried it with overly aggressive commanders though (I try to keep aggression under 50).
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RE: CV TFs and reaction - is this normal?

Post by Alfred »

Where to begin?[:)]
 
The situation presented by Lokasenna is quite complex with many relevant actors of which very little hard evidence has been provided.  Eg exactly which TF followed which, what were the specific orders and reactions, all the enemy DLs, fuel/ammo status for each (all surface and CV TFs) TF, the air power status and so on to mention just a few.  There is a lot of data which is germane and I daresay most players would not be fully aware that it comes into play when dealing with naval reactions.
 
So rather than directly trying to explain precisely what happened here, I shall go through the relevant considerations that apply to reacting task forces.  This should be of value because the manual does not do a good job in explaining the naval reaction concept.  Having access to all the data, Lokasenna can then see if some anomaly has arisen.
 
1.  Naval reaction is only available to combat TFs.  Non combat TFs such as Transport, Cargo etc have neither the option to set a reaction range nor will react towards an enemy TF.  Non combat TFs however may, under certain circumstances, retreat away from the enemy.
 
2.  Due to technical coding issues, there is no reaction towards a sub TF.  An ASW TF will not react towards a detected sub TF.  The ASW TF may engage in combat with a detected sub TF if it comes across it in a hex traversed during the ASW TF normal or patrol movement path but it will not deviate from it's normal or patrol movement path towards the sub TF.
 
3.  There are 2 distinct types of naval reaction.  Type (A) is based on seahex range and applies to all types of combat TF, be they surface, carrier, sub et al task forces, whilst type (B) is based on hex range and applies only to a carrier TF.  It is type (B) which is meant to be explained by s.6.3.4 of the manual.  Much of the confusion expressed by players over carrier TF reacting is due to the fact that both types of reaction are in play and not just s.6.3.4 of the manual.
 
4.  The max react button on the TF screen is misunderstood.  It's primary function is to toggle on/off whether a naval reaction might occur.  Set the reaction button to a 0 range setting tells the code to not check for a type (A) reaction BUT remember that a CV TF also answers to a type (B) reaction where the 0 range setting can be overridden.
 
5.  A reaction range setting >0 brings into play a type (A) reaction.  It does very little otherwise per se.  On 14 July 2010 JWE (aka Symon) stated:
 
"React just means that a TF is orientated to do something, somewhere.  So 'react' means 'what to do -if' and the number is how close."
 
Players who find JWE's statement to be somewhat underwhelming do so because they erroneously ascribe too much value to the reaction button.  Probably Don Bowen's comment of 25 March 2013 conveys the concept better
 
"'React' means move to attack any detected enemy nearby".
 
The entire subject of naval reaction was much discussed by the devs during AE development.  To give a feel for the sort of issues they had to grapple with consider what does a TF with a 6 hex naval reaction range setting really mean.  Does it mean reacting
 
  • only 6 hexes from the initial start position, or
  • 6 hexes from each hex along the path, or
  • 6 hexes from the current position of the TF (including any prior reaction)
The final decision was that it could mean any of the above.  For example, what should be the outcome when a TF with a naval reaction of 6 moves detects an enemy TF 6 hexes distant, moves 6 hexes towards the enemy which in turn during the same timeframe has moved 2 hexes further away.  Would a highly aggressive pursuing TF commander simply say "Fair cop guv, you got me, we'll stop the pursuit now".  Accordingly it was coded so that the more aggressive the TF commander is the more likely he is to order continued reaction.  Conversely, the less aggressive is the commander or the less favourable conditions present for a reaction, the sooner a reaction move is called off or not even commenced. 
 
What all this means is that a reaction range setting of 6 does not mean that a reacting TF is restricted to a 6 hex reaction move towards the detected enemy TF.  Nor does it mean that the enemy TF will never be reacted towards if it is located at 7 or more hexes distance.  It is all governed by the suite of factors taken into account in determining when naval reaction occurs, and this is without taking into account the ever present random factor in the game.  Range is therefore not set in concrete.
 
6.  Unlike classical WITP, naval movement in AE is on a hex by hex basis.  The naval reaction algorithm is checked every single hex travelled through.  Furthermore, excluding the factors which terminate or prevent in the first place a naval reaction which are listed in point 8 below, there is no limit to the number of enemy TFs that a reacting TF can move towards or engage.  Also a reacting TF can switch targets in the middle of a reaction move if a closer or better target is detected.
 
7.  Naval reaction is not dependent on the TF's movement orders.  A TF with "remain on station" orders but also given a reaction range, will react and override the remain on station order and return home after the reaction (which is why one should never give a reaction range to a remain on station TF) whereas other movement orders (eg patrol, follow, waypoints) would see the TF react and subsequently return to its previous movement orders.  In all instances a naval reaction move is possible only against a detected enemy TF, the higher the DL, the more likely reaction will result. 
 
8.  The naval reaction algorithm has the following checks:
 
  • detection levels
  • relative strength of both reactor and reactee TF
  • relative speed of both reactor and reactee TF
  • where reaction entails moving into dangerous waters (eg shallow water, under enemy air cover), the aggressiveness rating of the TF commander
  • ammo and fuel levels
  • hex characteristics (deep water being preferred)
  • damage and ops points levels of ships in the TF
  • range to enemy TF
  • in the case of a CV TF, the number of operational aircraft on board
  • in the case of a CV TF, the number of remaining aircraft sorties
  • known enemy minefields
  • in the case of a sub TF, a naval reaction will not occur into a medium or large sized port 
  • and the ever present Grigsby random
Each combat TF with a range reaction >0 set is checked against this criteria on every hex it travels.  In the case of a CV TF, it is checked for both type (A) and type (B) naval reactions.
 
9.  The point of type (B) and s.6.3.4 of the manual is to cover the unique combat situation which only applies to carriers.  For all other types of task forces, naval combat only occurs when both friendly and enemy TF (or enemy base) are co-located on the same hex.  This is not the case with carriers, whose aircraft can strike at an enemy TF or base located in a different hex.  Thus type (A) naval reaction is all about bringing the two opposing masses into direct contact whereas the type (B) naval reaction is about facilitating the activation of aircraft.
 
 
10.  To round off, I'll provide a pertinent example because I strongly suspect the principle it demonstrates exists in Lokasenna's situation.
 
TF #1 is an amphibious TF.
TF #2 is a surface combat TF.  It has been given movement orders to follow TF #1 and has also been given a naval reaction range of 6.
 
If an enemy surface TF is detected and all the relevant boxes are ticked, TF #2 will react towards the enemy because the follow order tells it to protect TF #1 and it's own reaction range tells it to move towards the enemy anyway.  Remember a reaction move overrides existing movement orders (see point 7 above).
 
If, however, TF #2 does not have a follow TF #1 order, then it will not react towards the enemy in order to protect TF #1 but will only react on the basis of the threat/opportunity to itself alone.  Most players will not notice this situation because they usually set following TFs at a range of zero and hence any enemy TF is simultaneously a threat to both friendly TFs which are in the same hex.
 
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RE: CV TFs and reaction - is this normal?

Post by zuluhour »

another sticky!
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RE: CV TFs and reaction - is this normal?

Post by Lowpe »

That was gold.[&o]
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RE: CV TFs and reaction - is this normal?

Post by witpqs »

Most excellent!!!

I must make comment on two sections as my information differs somewhat.
7.  Naval reaction is not dependent on the TF's movement orders.  A TF with "remain on station" orders but also given a reaction range, will react and override the remain on station order and return home after the reaction (which is why one should never give a reaction range to a remain on station TF) whereas other movement orders (eg patrol, follow, waypoints) would see the TF react and subsequently return to its previous movement orders.  In all instances a naval reaction move is possible only against a detected enemy TF, the higher the DL, the more likely reaction will result. 

A clarification.

When discussing surface combat reactions, Don Bowen made it quite clear that Remain on Station overrides the React setting. My experience both before and after that revelation bears that out. His disclosure immediately cleared up problems getting surface combat TFs to react.

Carrier reaction does override Remain on Station at times, as you say.
2.  Due to technical coding issues, there is no reaction towards a sub TF.  An ASW TF will not react towards a detected sub TF.  The ASW TF may engage in combat with a detected sub TF if it comes across it in a hex traversed during the ASW TF normal or patrol movement path but it will not deviate from it's normal or patrol movement path towards the sub TF.

This surprises me. On a number of occasions I have seen ASW TFs pursue subs well outside of their patrol areas (and not on their way to/from patrol/port). I don't know what mechanism is at play but I have seen it a number of times.
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RE: CV TFs and reaction - is this normal?

Post by Lokasenna »

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Most excellent!!!

I must make comment on two sections as my information differs somewhat.
7.  Naval reaction is not dependent on the TF's movement orders.  A TF with "remain on station" orders but also given a reaction range, will react and override the remain on station order and return home after the reaction (which is why one should never give a reaction range to a remain on station TF) whereas other movement orders (eg patrol, follow, waypoints) would see the TF react and subsequently return to its previous movement orders.  In all instances a naval reaction move is possible only against a detected enemy TF, the higher the DL, the more likely reaction will result. 

A clarification.

When discussing surface combat reactions, Don Bowen made it quite clear that Remain on Station overrides the React setting. My experience both before and after that revelation bears that out. His disclosure immediately cleared up problems getting surface combat TFs to react.

Carrier reaction does override Remain on Station at times, as you say.
2.  Due to technical coding issues, there is no reaction towards a sub TF.  An ASW TF will not react towards a detected sub TF.  The ASW TF may engage in combat with a detected sub TF if it comes across it in a hex traversed during the ASW TF normal or patrol movement path but it will not deviate from it's normal or patrol movement path towards the sub TF.

This surprises me. On a number of occasions I have seen ASW TFs pursue subs well outside of their patrol areas (and not on their way to/from patrol/port). I don't know what mechanism is at play but I have seen it a number of times.


Reaction on all TFs (including the surface combat TFs) was set to 0, which takes "naval reaction" out of the picture. This is carrier reaction only.

Once my voice is no longer froggy I'll record a video of the replay [:'(].

I've seen ASW TFs react, but they have never initiated an attack from doing so. At least, there is a message that they've reacted during the replay, but I'm not certain if they actually moved or, if they moved, if they will ever prosecute an attack. However, I do look for the message as I think it indicates to me whether my aerial search is working to detect subs to such a level that my ASW TFs that are on patrol can find/attack the subs.
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RE: CV TFs and reaction - is this normal?

Post by Lokasenna »

Alright, I made a capture video that will show you my replay and what happened. My voice is still a little froggy, as last night was a good time [;)]. As soon as YouTube has processed the upload I'll post the link and relevant time stamps if the whole 9 minutes is not something you want to see. I did notice that I actually had 3 Air TFs made up of CVEs, not the 2 that I state in the video. So in the second air search phase, the 4 reactions that are seen are the 4 TFs that were in hex 99,93 reacting up to 99,92. The TF already in 99,92 (adjacent to the enemy) does not react.

I'll make a short followup video after that where I load up the turn immediately after the replay so you can see the TF settings and leaders, etc, on the relevant TFs.

Since I haven't even done the next turn yet, maybe a breach of OpSec if my opponent watches the videos, but I don't think anything too important would be revealed. Nothing he wouldn't have already seen, anyway.

The first one, I didn't realize that I had to set quality settings on the capture software so it is not great quality (particularly in the night phases and over ocean hexes), but I think it still demonstrates what I saw clearly enough.
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RE: CV TFs and reaction - is this normal?

Post by Lokasenna »

Here we go. You will probably need to load in full screen to see enough detail. My capture resolution is set around 1600x900, which is the same size as I run the game at. The view of the hex lines gets better once it reaches the day phase.

Next time I'll be recording at Quality 100, not 70 ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvexZ8AtWgo

~00:30 - first movement phase with a few sub actions, you can see previous turn's detection levels

~01:45 - night air phase, with initial detections on my task forces from my opponent's night search showing where my TFs show up

~02:15 - you can see where my TFs moved to after the first movement phase

~03:15 - near the beginning of the first daytime air phase. Around 03:30 is when my CV TFs begin to be detected, all in the same hex

04:09/04:10 through 04:28 - carrier task forces react

~05:00 - distribution of Allied/IJN TFs shown clearly via a "pause" in the replay


And so on... again, apologies for the 70% quality [:D].
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