Most of you are aware of the Army's controversial decision to replace the old baseball-style cap for most soldiers with black berets. As a retired Army officer, I have strenuously objected to this decision, but that has already been discussed here.
You may not know that the black berets, 5 million of them, are being made by a company located in the People's Republic of China. Now I think it would be absolutely insulting for US soldiers to be forced to wear berets made in the country that is currently holding American airmen hostage. Write your congressman.
OT: 5 million black berets
Moderator: MOD_SPWaW
Actually I think I overstated the number that will be made in the PRC, which is just handling some of the contract. Just wanted to clarify that as I cool off. The connection just dawned on me a few minutes ago, and I'm still hot about it. Here is a link to a story about who is making the berets.
http://ww2.pstripes.osd.mil/01/feb01/ed020701e.html
http://ww2.pstripes.osd.mil/01/feb01/ed020701e.html
I think it would be better if the barrets were made in US ... better for morale anyway.
But additionally I would advise to use different coloured barrets, maybe even some units still sticking to the old caps. Either colour based on unit type or Division/Corps etc.
To have unique headgear or a unit will improve both the units cohesion and will stimulate competition between units so they even try to do even better.
And additionally if headgear is selected for weapon type commanders easily distinguish personel.
In Germany we have Red barrets for Artillery/Logistic, Green for PanzerGrenadier, Black for tanks, Blue for medical personel (if I remember right...) and so on.
So if one has a combined force as a commander one can easily find the CO of a attached unit and knows what kind of unit that one commands.
murx
But additionally I would advise to use different coloured barrets, maybe even some units still sticking to the old caps. Either colour based on unit type or Division/Corps etc.
To have unique headgear or a unit will improve both the units cohesion and will stimulate competition between units so they even try to do even better.
And additionally if headgear is selected for weapon type commanders easily distinguish personel.
In Germany we have Red barrets for Artillery/Logistic, Green for PanzerGrenadier, Black for tanks, Blue for medical personel (if I remember right...) and so on.
So if one has a combined force as a commander one can easily find the CO of a attached unit and knows what kind of unit that one commands.
murx
When I was in the Air Force, we changed uniform styles three times, and that did not include all of the hat changes. Some of hats were made in China. I see some things havent changed a bit in the military.
I have edited this post now that I have run to the closet and dug up my old hats. Yes, I had two hats made in China.
I have edited this post now that I have run to the closet and dug up my old hats. Yes, I had two hats made in China.
John
I know i have been flamed on this forum for bring up the fact that during WW2 alot of German equipment was made by slave labor ...Slave Labor will be making the Berets .. I'm sure that will improve US morale and espre' de corps knowing that the troops are wearing berets made by Slave labor... but then the GI's started putting on Nazi style helmets back in the 80's so maybe Berets made by slaves won't be so bad ..
"For Americans war is almost all of the time a nuisance, and military skill is a luxury like Mah-jongg. But when the issue is brought home to them, war becomes as important, for the necessary periods, as business or sport. And it is hard to decide which
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Charles2222
- Posts: 3687
- Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2001 10:00 am
AmmoSgt: The helmet most (I say 'most' because airborne had different ones) of the Germans wore during WWII, was not a "NAZI" helmet as you claim. The helmet had been around since WWI and possibly before that. The only thing "NAZI" about the German helmet of WWII was that it had swastikas on them, while that very same helmet design of WWI did not. I take it that the US Army new style did not include swastikas, yes? Also, while the US Army helmet adopted resembles the German helmet, it isn't the same by any means.
I think itis good to change to barets as the caps look ridiculous. Your soldiers look like farmers in Church outfits with them and they really do not look wery "military". But using the same color is stupid. It is a great way to know from where you are with the different colors. Black baret is more of a tanker baret (germans used to make the new armoured units some nice tradition and identity)
It's not the helmet but the person wearing it. Items are not inherently evil, only people.
We have our politicians to thank when it comes to the two-faced attitude in our foreign policies. 'Money' forces the opening of markets and 'profit' runs the minds of politicos.
In the case of China, we dug our own hole in the Clinton years by looking the other way at every human rights abuse, illegal sale of computers and tech, and by ignoring the overall political views of others. Clinton gave lip service to the arms embargo in the Balkans and then turned right around and sold arms to the muslims behind the back of our Allies.
I would like everyone to just 'get along'. People are the same everywhere. But until people force the politicians of their countries to adequately represent them and not the special intrests of people looking to make a buck, then these situations will continue.
I agree. Write your representatives. Stop the two-faced approach of political agendas.
I know it's easy to say in a free culture, others are fed only what the govt will allow. We all need to get the word out.
Great game by the way. Maybe unite the world through games?!?
We have our politicians to thank when it comes to the two-faced attitude in our foreign policies. 'Money' forces the opening of markets and 'profit' runs the minds of politicos.
In the case of China, we dug our own hole in the Clinton years by looking the other way at every human rights abuse, illegal sale of computers and tech, and by ignoring the overall political views of others. Clinton gave lip service to the arms embargo in the Balkans and then turned right around and sold arms to the muslims behind the back of our Allies.
I would like everyone to just 'get along'. People are the same everywhere. But until people force the politicians of their countries to adequately represent them and not the special intrests of people looking to make a buck, then these situations will continue.
I agree. Write your representatives. Stop the two-faced approach of political agendas.
I know it's easy to say in a free culture, others are fed only what the govt will allow. We all need to get the word out.
Great game by the way. Maybe unite the world through games?!?
Ladies and Gentlemen,
I couldn't resist this topic and I've got a little time today, so my two cents follow. I know a lot of you retiree (US anyway) may disagree, but hey it is a forum, right?
On the US Army going to the Black beret. Who really cares? It's just a hat. As an active duty officer, I would be happy to wear a pink tutu and a tiara if they would let me lead combat soldiers as long as I wanted. (I would prefer not to, a tutu just doesn't look very warm.) They probably could have picked a color not already taken, though it should be noted that the Rangers stole the black beret from the cavalry and so on at least all the way back the Iron Brigade of the Union Army of the civil. I am sure lineage could be traced farther back than that. The Ridgeway hat was fine, the beret will be too.
As far as buying them from the Chinese, it's probably not the message the US wants to send the Chinese on a political level given recent events. Judge for yourselves.
Anyone else who has worn, drank from, puked in, spit in, dipped, or otherwised loved a cavalry Stetson may understand my dismay when a female chemical officer told me how she "earned" her cavalry spurs and Stetson. But hey, what it really is, is flattery, at least that's how I rationalize.
What does this mean to SPWAW. Distinctive uniform items often go with elite units. Each person in a simulation must weight the benefits and drawbacks of using those type of forces and understand their strengths and weaknesses. So does his opponent. You want your Guards, Rangers, FJ, Commandos, etc., bring em. They all have exploitable weaknesses.
Regards,
Matt
I couldn't resist this topic and I've got a little time today, so my two cents follow. I know a lot of you retiree (US anyway) may disagree, but hey it is a forum, right?
On the US Army going to the Black beret. Who really cares? It's just a hat. As an active duty officer, I would be happy to wear a pink tutu and a tiara if they would let me lead combat soldiers as long as I wanted. (I would prefer not to, a tutu just doesn't look very warm.) They probably could have picked a color not already taken, though it should be noted that the Rangers stole the black beret from the cavalry and so on at least all the way back the Iron Brigade of the Union Army of the civil. I am sure lineage could be traced farther back than that. The Ridgeway hat was fine, the beret will be too.
As far as buying them from the Chinese, it's probably not the message the US wants to send the Chinese on a political level given recent events. Judge for yourselves.
Anyone else who has worn, drank from, puked in, spit in, dipped, or otherwised loved a cavalry Stetson may understand my dismay when a female chemical officer told me how she "earned" her cavalry spurs and Stetson. But hey, what it really is, is flattery, at least that's how I rationalize.
What does this mean to SPWAW. Distinctive uniform items often go with elite units. Each person in a simulation must weight the benefits and drawbacks of using those type of forces and understand their strengths and weaknesses. So does his opponent. You want your Guards, Rangers, FJ, Commandos, etc., bring em. They all have exploitable weaknesses.
Regards,
Matt
IYACYAS
Matt,
Good words, you're right it's a hat-a damn impractical one-hot in summer, not very warm in winter; although the Rangers were officially authorized the black beret since 1975. That's over 25 years of tradition being flushed away.
My perspective is from the cash viewpoint: the CoS's whine and blow snot about not enough money ("we're gutting ourselves") yet we can afford: new hats for the army and $650,000 for a new AF symbol. (Don't even get me started on boondoggles like "Tops in Blue")
Good words, you're right it's a hat-a damn impractical one-hot in summer, not very warm in winter; although the Rangers were officially authorized the black beret since 1975. That's over 25 years of tradition being flushed away.
My perspective is from the cash viewpoint: the CoS's whine and blow snot about not enough money ("we're gutting ourselves") yet we can afford: new hats for the army and $650,000 for a new AF symbol. (Don't even get me started on boondoggles like "Tops in Blue")
"...these go up to eleven."
Nigel Tufnel
Nigel Tufnel
As a civilian interested in military matters, I questioned the Army's decision to adopt the black beret, but after talking to a good buddy and former combat Marine, I'm starting to understand the rationale. The Army, with its new slogan ("an Army of One")and headgear, is simply adopting the Marine mentality of "every man (or woman) a rifleman" in order to give a much-needed boost to their self-image and to draw better recruits. To imply a service-wide elitism, if you will. My friend's son, who is in the Army, has stated that the recruiting officers for the other services always looked so much better than the Army's. I'm sure that's a widely-held opinion. In this day and age, I can understand their predicament. It's really simple if you compare the ability for the Army to recruit the best and brightest as opposed to the other branches of the US military establishment. To some of the traditionalists, it may seem a slap in the face, BUT, in today's business-oriented environment, it's just common sense.
They might be trying to emulate Marine Corps doctrine, but we'll still look down on them no matter what they wear on their head. (Oh no THATS going to start trouble.)Originally posted by KG Erwin:
As a civilian interested in military matters, I questioned the Army's decision to adopt the black beret, but after talking to a good buddy and former combat Marine, I'm starting to understand the rationale. The Army, with its new slogan ("an Army of One")and headgear, is simply adopting the Marine mentality of "every man (or woman) a rifleman" in order to give a much-needed boost to their self-image and to draw better recruits. To imply a service-wide elitism, if you will. My friend's son, who is in the Army, has stated that the recruiting officers for the other services always looked so much better than the Army's. I'm sure that's a widely-held opinion. In this day and age, I can understand their predicament. It's really simple if you compare the ability for the Army to recruit the best and brightest as opposed to the other branches of the US military establishment. To some of the traditionalists, it may seem a slap in the face, BUT, in today's business-oriented environment, it's just common sense.
USMCGrunt
Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, 'ow's yer soul?" But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll!
-Rudyard Kipling-
Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, 'ow's yer soul?" But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll!
-Rudyard Kipling-
I'm glad for the change in headgear. I think the baseball caps look stupid.
What I would really like to see is to have the US military dress like Zouves. Then they would really look cool.
What I would really like to see is to have the US military dress like Zouves. Then they would really look cool.
"America ... just a nation of two hundred million used car salesmen with all the money we need to buy guns and no qualms about killing anybody else in the world who tries to make us uncomfortable. "
Hunter S. Thompson, US journalist, Fear & Loathing on
Hunter S. Thompson, US journalist, Fear & Loathing on
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CaptainBrian
- Posts: 59
- Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2000 10:00 am
- Location: California
Funny, I didn't see a rifle in the hands of the subject of that commercial...Originally posted by KG Erwin:
The Army, with its new slogan ("an Army of One")and headgear, is simply adopting the Marine mentality of "every man (or woman) a rifleman" in order to give a much-needed boost to their self-image and to draw better recruits.
As far as the current helmet goes...who cares what it looks like... I just want the greatest degree of ballistic protection for my Marines.
For the record the majority of my peers in the Army (I'm currently attending an Army School) see this Beret thing as a gimmick to attempt to artifically create esprit de corps.
Doesn't our nation's Army have enough heritage, history and accomplishments to be proud of and have a sense of esprit de corps?
CaptainBrian
Back in the early 60's we wore blocked garrison caps with glider patches and when someone suggested that we be allowed to wear red berets, the boys over on Smokebomb Hill said that only Special Forces could wear berets and that was that.Originally posted by edppcli:
Hey you boys can choose whatever colour you want, just don't let those greasy LEGs wear marroon.
Svar
I knew that would get a rise out of folks .. actually the only beret i object to is when US Troops wear a light blue one.. I love talking hats with guys ..hard to find guys with fashion sense ..LOL
"For Americans war is almost all of the time a nuisance, and military skill is a luxury like Mah-jongg. But when the issue is brought home to them, war becomes as important, for the necessary periods, as business or sport. And it is hard to decide which