G'Day all,
situation:
Nov 43, I'm Japs conducting a solid defence (the BBS has spies!). I have good air at Lunga, Vila, Shortland, Rabul. The despicable US are sailing a CV TF about 10 hexes around that flank trying to disrupt my supply convoy's (which is not having much of an effect, as they have been re-routed) but he did sink a damaged CA that was limping back to Truk.
I have 4 strong Surface TF's, its thunderstorms so air is reduced. I do not want to sortie my remaining carriers (airgroups still not upto takling the US CV TF).
I don't HAVE to attack, but it would be nice!
Question.
How do I get the Yamamato TF to attack a CV TF? Can it be done?
The Emperor will offer a reward for a succesful tactic!
Cheers
Rob
Intercepting CV TF with surface TF
Moderators: Joel Billings, Tankerace, siRkid
Intercepting CV TF with surface TF
AE BETA Breaker
The surface combat would only happen if your group happened to end it's phase in the same hex as the carriers. Rather iffy. If you guess wrong, you are likely toast. Even if you guess right, there's a good chance the the screen will be all you fight, as the carriers are assumed to be able to run away with their higher speed.
The best tactic is don't try it unless the carriers are already crippled.
The best tactic is don't try it unless the carriers are already crippled.
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile- hoping it will eat him last
- Winston Churchill
- Winston Churchill
Nov '43 and you hold Lunga? Sounds like you're winning the game so why risk the potential ship loss?Nov 43, I'm Japs conducting a solid defence (the BBS has spies!). I have good air at Lunga, Vila, Shortland, Rabul.
I agree with Bilbow, it's a dangerous stunt to try, especially if the USN is opeating in open water.
You could try a shotgun approach and blanket the 4 hexes around where you expect the CV TFs to end there night move (anywhere from 5-6 hexes from there where they start).
The only worth while method (IMO) is to catch him at night with a surface TF that has retirement orders, that way if you miss, you'll at least be 12 hexes away from the intercept hex by daylight.
Trouble is -
1) His daylight move could take him up to 6 hexes toward your surface TFs (more if he's reacting to one of your CV TFs in the area).
2) Even if you hit the jackpot and pick the right hex, as Bilbow mentioned, all you are likely to do is hit some of the escorts (unless you get a surprise round as well). CVs are like transports, they won't intentionally hang around in surface battles as targets.
If you really want to try it, do it in combination with as many subs as you can muster in ambush positions.
Personally, I think it'll just end in tears.
Have no fear,
drink more beer.
drink more beer.
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Admiral Scott
- Posts: 707
- Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2001 10:00 am
- Location: Syracuse, NY USA
Well I am the despicable U.S. Player you guys are refering to.
I got more than a heavy cruiser, I got quite a few transports on this raid as well. I am also 12 move hexes away from Rabaul I believe, not 10.
I was hoping Rob would use his remaining carrier the Kaga to come out and fight some of my five fleet carriers. I even seperated them into two groups spaced extremely far appart to make it more appealing, but no show.
I should read this forum more often, I didnt know my opponent was this resourceful (desperate?) to use it for assistance. LOL
I got more than a heavy cruiser, I got quite a few transports on this raid as well. I am also 12 move hexes away from Rabaul I believe, not 10.
I was hoping Rob would use his remaining carrier the Kaga to come out and fight some of my five fleet carriers. I even seperated them into two groups spaced extremely far appart to make it more appealing, but no show.
I should read this forum more often, I didnt know my opponent was this resourceful (desperate?) to use it for assistance. LOL
Scott nothing to see here 
Thanks guys, many of your comments are already in place Thats why I have at least 4 surface TF's That shotgun approach is enticing, and in this weather luck should be with me... I may loose a ship or two but have a chance at the carriers. I was looking for a more fool proof way if possible.
Decisions decisions
All the ships you got were heavily damaged... I thought the crusier would get to Truk in time
And Drongo, I wouldn't consider myself winning, but I haven't lost either so I don't need to be rash. My mines have damaged 2 enemy CA's and at least 3 DD's in recent turns Now if I can get a carrier or two...
Cheers
Rob
Thanks guys, many of your comments are already in place
Thats why I have at least 4 surface TF's That shotgun approach is enticing, and in this weather luck should be with me... I may loose a ship or two but have a chance at the carriers. I was looking for a more fool proof way if possible.Decisions decisions
All the ships you got were heavily damaged... I thought the crusier would get to Truk in time
And Drongo, I wouldn't consider myself winning, but I haven't lost either so I don't need to be rash. My mines have damaged 2 enemy CA's and at least 3 DD's in recent turns
Now if I can get a carrier or two...Cheers
Rob
AE BETA Breaker
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Admiral Scott
- Posts: 707
- Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2001 10:00 am
- Location: Syracuse, NY USA
I never leave my CVs sitting in the same place as the previous turn, I never telegraph, and I am VERY VERY VERY careful wiht sending them with appriopriate escorts . . . yet Adm. Arctic has intercepted my CVs with his IJN surface units roughly 6 or 7 times throughout this game. Once he caught a transport tf with a CVE in it (Yamato finished her in no time) but that doesn't count. The othesr were mid ocean intercepts, and I've had a 16 inch shell hit on the Essex, light damage to wasp, and lost about 3 CVEs to his mid ocean interceptions.
How does he do it? Very careful consideration of the maths, and covering all his bases. Put it another way - it is late 43, and I've only got one CLAA - as all the others were sunk in surface battles (sacrificed themselves for my CVs to run like hell).
On the other side of the coin, he doesn't really have a surface fleet any more (nothing to do with his mid ocean intercepts though. Only needs to happen to you once and you pull your CVs RIGHT back.)
So it is possible - even likely for some.
How does he do it? Very careful consideration of the maths, and covering all his bases. Put it another way - it is late 43, and I've only got one CLAA - as all the others were sunk in surface battles (sacrificed themselves for my CVs to run like hell).
On the other side of the coin, he doesn't really have a surface fleet any more (nothing to do with his mid ocean intercepts though. Only needs to happen to you once and you pull your CVs RIGHT back.)
So it is possible - even likely for some.
With dancing Bananas and Storm Troopers who needs BBs?
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Admiral Scott
- Posts: 707
- Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2001 10:00 am
- Location: Syracuse, NY USA
Originally posted by Luskan
I never leave my CVs sitting in the same place as the previous turn, I never telegraph, and I am VERY VERY VERY careful wiht sending them with appriopriate escorts . . . yet Adm. Arctic has intercepted my CVs with his IJN surface units roughly 6 or 7 times throughout this game. Once he caught a transport tf with a CVE in it (Yamato finished her in no time) but that doesn't count. The othesr were mid ocean intercepts, and I've had a 16 inch shell hit on the Essex, light damage to wasp, and lost about 3 CVEs to his mid ocean interceptions.
How does he do it? Very careful consideration of the maths, and covering all his bases. Put it another way - it is late 43, and I've only got one CLAA - as all the others were sunk in surface battles (sacrificed themselves for my CVs to run like hell).
On the other side of the coin, he doesn't really have a surface fleet any more (nothing to do with his mid ocean intercepts though. Only needs to happen to you once and you pull your CVs RIGHT back.)
So it is possible - even likely for some.
So can someone tell me exactly how you do this math? How do you tell from a fleets speed where it could possibly end up?
Check out my mod for Strategic Command American Civil War!
https://forums.matrixgames.com/viewtopic.php?t=413785
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Admiral_Arctic
- Posts: 154
- Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2002 3:22 pm
- Location: Nonamia
My efforts for mid-ocean intercepts
CV TF only move at their cruising speed. Think about the enemy's mission. Is he escorting Transports or trying to raid your base? Or raiding your supply line?
If you are the Japs, the USN CV TF is likely to move 5 hexes per phase (without refueling) and 4 hexes if it has a CVE or you previously damaged some ships. As long as the CV TF doesn't refuel, he can only move the cruise distance. If the CV TF is moving 5 or more hexes, it will still be 5 hexes from the start. So if the CV wants to move 6,7,8,9,10 hexes you don't have to guess them, only the 5th hex. Because the CV will move 5 during the night and the remainder during the morning. Bring in some subs to keep him moving. The subs don't have to attack, just get sighted and give the CV TF a reason to keep moving. You want him to keep moving five or more hexes.
Also consider the mission of the CV. If they are moving with APs in another TF in the same hex, then the movement might change. If the Allied AP TF moves 4/4 or 3/3 then you still plot 5 hexes for a night intercept. That is what the CV TF will move. If the AP TF is invading then it probably only has longer ranged ships and keeps moving at the 4/4 or 3/3 speed. But if there is PC or DE then you will have to consider a shorter move. If an invasion TF has left Noumea it will be getting short of fuel as it approaches Lunga. (I always give "refuel at sea" orders to my TFs when ever the are getting short in case they get separated if the computer does it during the move.) Most AP TF will then only move one hex during the night phase. You can get them while separated.
If the CV are just coming up to attack your base (say Lunga), then he will want to get into certain hexes that suit his aircraft range to have an escort, while staying out of range of land based Kates with torpedoes. This will depend on the version you started with because your planes have the stats of your OB, but they carry the latest version of bombload (exe). If he is operating south east of Lunga you can count out the possible hexes. Work out how many TF you can make that have good range and hitting power (don't have less than 15 ships). Remember that your ships will only fire on the enemy CV during the first round so you need some good hits first up.
If the CV TF moves south or south west of Lunga you still have opportunities to get successful intercepts. Just keep predicting his 5th hexes. Even if you fail, the USN isn't going to know you were out there (unless you get mined, torpedoed, or you let your ships run low of fuel). Try again next time he comes out. He might even move to the same initial hexes of the first approach because he had an easy passage last time. Also don't limit your intercepts to his approach. The CV TF can only move 5 hexes during the night his is starting to withdraw from the area. There can be an opportunity. 12 hexes is a long way and the USN might be thinking exit. Also the USN is thinking the main risk to my CV is air power, so he counts his 8 or 10 hex move away from lunga and thinks he is safe. But you intercept at night at his cruising speed. Even if he plotted 5,6,7,8,9,10 you can still intercept at 5. Also if there was heavy aerial attacks the previous day, his 5 inch gun ammo might be low or zero.
When I am considering an intercept for multiple TFs that approach I still think in terms of their different speeds. An invading FLEET is made up specialist TFs. The CV TF, Bombardment TF, SC TF, AP TF, AO TF. Most of the time the invading fleet wants to be rushing forward as quickly as possible to reduce attacks. Particularly air attacks. Most player seem to keep their CV TF with their AP TF all the way up to the target hex to ward off air attacks. So if the AP TF moves 3/3 then all the TFs end 6 hexes from the day's start hex ready for the expected air attacks. This is your chance during the night. You can plot 3 hexes to attack the AP TF, 4 hexes for the faster AP or CVE, 5 hexes for the CV TF and most SC or Bombardment TF, or 6 hexes for fast SC or BB TFs. They all arrive at different times. You could fight them individually before the all arrive at their 6 hex move (day and night). The enemy could be using "follow TF" orders that would reduce their dispersion, but look for posibilities.
Just remember to keep your TF on retreat. And that you might not success every time, but try to disrupt the enemy's approach. Or if the enemy thinks your are trying to intercept, he might take a longer route, giving your other forces a chance to hit them. Also remember that mnay Japanese CV TF will move slower because of Junyo and CVLs. All Japanese AP TF will be 3/3 and will have more chnace of having SC and PC so think it might need refueling if it has moved a reasonable distance.
Everyone else has probably thought of these things anyway.
PS I am assuming the Allies have a large airforce but is mostly restricted by his range. They might have CV superiority or you might be resting/repairing your CV. So you don't want your surface TF away from Lunga at the end of the turn. Load up Lunga with heaps of fighters and return at the end of each night. But you can still use Lunga to race out at 12 hexes and return again. If the Allied bombers want to zoom in, your CAP can defend you.
If you are the Japs, the USN CV TF is likely to move 5 hexes per phase (without refueling) and 4 hexes if it has a CVE or you previously damaged some ships. As long as the CV TF doesn't refuel, he can only move the cruise distance. If the CV TF is moving 5 or more hexes, it will still be 5 hexes from the start. So if the CV wants to move 6,7,8,9,10 hexes you don't have to guess them, only the 5th hex. Because the CV will move 5 during the night and the remainder during the morning. Bring in some subs to keep him moving. The subs don't have to attack, just get sighted and give the CV TF a reason to keep moving. You want him to keep moving five or more hexes.
Also consider the mission of the CV. If they are moving with APs in another TF in the same hex, then the movement might change. If the Allied AP TF moves 4/4 or 3/3 then you still plot 5 hexes for a night intercept. That is what the CV TF will move. If the AP TF is invading then it probably only has longer ranged ships and keeps moving at the 4/4 or 3/3 speed. But if there is PC or DE then you will have to consider a shorter move. If an invasion TF has left Noumea it will be getting short of fuel as it approaches Lunga. (I always give "refuel at sea" orders to my TFs when ever the are getting short in case they get separated if the computer does it during the move.) Most AP TF will then only move one hex during the night phase. You can get them while separated.
If the CV are just coming up to attack your base (say Lunga), then he will want to get into certain hexes that suit his aircraft range to have an escort, while staying out of range of land based Kates with torpedoes. This will depend on the version you started with because your planes have the stats of your OB, but they carry the latest version of bombload (exe). If he is operating south east of Lunga you can count out the possible hexes. Work out how many TF you can make that have good range and hitting power (don't have less than 15 ships). Remember that your ships will only fire on the enemy CV during the first round so you need some good hits first up.
If the CV TF moves south or south west of Lunga you still have opportunities to get successful intercepts. Just keep predicting his 5th hexes. Even if you fail, the USN isn't going to know you were out there (unless you get mined, torpedoed, or you let your ships run low of fuel). Try again next time he comes out. He might even move to the same initial hexes of the first approach because he had an easy passage last time. Also don't limit your intercepts to his approach. The CV TF can only move 5 hexes during the night his is starting to withdraw from the area. There can be an opportunity. 12 hexes is a long way and the USN might be thinking exit. Also the USN is thinking the main risk to my CV is air power, so he counts his 8 or 10 hex move away from lunga and thinks he is safe. But you intercept at night at his cruising speed. Even if he plotted 5,6,7,8,9,10 you can still intercept at 5. Also if there was heavy aerial attacks the previous day, his 5 inch gun ammo might be low or zero.
When I am considering an intercept for multiple TFs that approach I still think in terms of their different speeds. An invading FLEET is made up specialist TFs. The CV TF, Bombardment TF, SC TF, AP TF, AO TF. Most of the time the invading fleet wants to be rushing forward as quickly as possible to reduce attacks. Particularly air attacks. Most player seem to keep their CV TF with their AP TF all the way up to the target hex to ward off air attacks. So if the AP TF moves 3/3 then all the TFs end 6 hexes from the day's start hex ready for the expected air attacks. This is your chance during the night. You can plot 3 hexes to attack the AP TF, 4 hexes for the faster AP or CVE, 5 hexes for the CV TF and most SC or Bombardment TF, or 6 hexes for fast SC or BB TFs. They all arrive at different times. You could fight them individually before the all arrive at their 6 hex move (day and night). The enemy could be using "follow TF" orders that would reduce their dispersion, but look for posibilities.
Just remember to keep your TF on retreat. And that you might not success every time, but try to disrupt the enemy's approach. Or if the enemy thinks your are trying to intercept, he might take a longer route, giving your other forces a chance to hit them. Also remember that mnay Japanese CV TF will move slower because of Junyo and CVLs. All Japanese AP TF will be 3/3 and will have more chnace of having SC and PC so think it might need refueling if it has moved a reasonable distance.
Everyone else has probably thought of these things anyway.
PS I am assuming the Allies have a large airforce but is mostly restricted by his range. They might have CV superiority or you might be resting/repairing your CV. So you don't want your surface TF away from Lunga at the end of the turn. Load up Lunga with heaps of fighters and return at the end of each night. But you can still use Lunga to race out at 12 hexes and return again. If the Allied bombers want to zoom in, your CAP can defend you.
I'm a hazard to myself.
Want. Take. Have.
Want. Take. Have.
