Invading/Defending Japan

[alexvand]

I have zero experience invading or defending the Japanese home islands. So in my current game I'm going to have the Allies try it. (See the other thread I'm writing about Spain for the rest of the war.)

I'd love some advice on both the defensive and offensive end.

This pic shows most of the land units in Japan. Yamashita is hiding under Yamamoto, there are 2 or 3 divs around and 2 Art units. There are also two garrisons guarding the two major ports up North. Where the fleet is hiding.

The Japanese fleet is still effective. 5 fleet carriers and a bunch of the 1 class carriers. Most of them have CVPs. The Yamato and Musashi plus a bunch of cruisers still exist. (Not playing with oil so they can still sail.)

On the Allied side, they've got 3 Amphib, 3 MAR, the ARM Mardiv, 2 HQs, and a bunch of Inf, Mot, and lots of Divs both MAR and INF types. Only 1 Mech and no ARM in theatre though.

Their fleet is about 2 and a half times the size of the Japanese fleet.

I'll put up a pic of the air units next.

[alexvand]

Here's a pic showing most of the Japanese air. There are 3 more FTR underneath. (Including an 8 and a 7 factor.) There are also 2 more FTR covering the fleet up north.

There are also 4 more NAV underneath.

The Allies have slightly more on the edge of the China Sea. At least 3 nine factor fighters, some eights and some sevens. 5 or so NAVs. And there's more on the way from the US. And even more on the Spiral.

Japanese production is at 5 right now, and will likely drop once Korea falls to the Russians.

So advice for the Japanese? Advice for the Allies?

[michaelbaldur]

that looks like a suicidal defence..

for the USA
you need alot of air superiority.

you need to kill of the Japanese fleet, to eliminate defensive shore bombardment and supply issues

you need to use carpet bombardment to kill off a few stacks.

[Centuur]

Agreed. I would not attack Japan at all with these forces on the islands. That's plain suicide for the US, unless they are capable of getting at least 8 corps sized units ashore at one go. Which they can't...

I don't know what the Japanese still control outside of Korea and Japan, but in this case I would make sure that I get all the other Japanese area's under Allied control first.

Liberate China totally, take Formosa, Hainan, NEI, Phillipines, Manchuria and Korea out first. Make the last country a huge airbase for the US before attacking the Japanese Islands...

[AlbertN]

Indeed, Japan in the end neats 1 VP from Tokyo and that is pretty much it.
Also their factories would serve nothing without resources too.

Just don't attack Japan and let them play turtle - unless in your own game you have prefixed custom Allied objectives.

[michaelbaldur]

and never strategic bombard Japan, you are not trying to eliminate future reinforcements, you have to kill on map units

[alexvand]

Japan still holds Port Arthur, Shanghai, Saigon, Singapore, Taihoku, and Rabaul.

The only one of those the Allies would have difficulty taking is Rabaul, as it has a white print mountain and a white print Inf and the Allies haven't landed there at all yet. All the other objectives are threatened and about to be taken.

[alexvand]

Ok, I'm hearing lots of good advice about not invading and letting them die on the vine. Which is effective strategy for winning the game.

Except I want the experience of invading Japan since I've never done it or seen it done. Let's imagine, for some reason, that the Allies just have to invade.

So how do you go about it?

[Numdydar]

Nukes [:D]

[AlbertN]

Well first of all W.Allies need airbases in abundance - as Japan has still some airforce there!

I'd start with a moderate approach by taking the zone of Sapporo too - if time allows. That denies also some production to them.
Then it's just a matter of grinding the defenders away as Japan cannot replace losses.

[paulderynck]

The best place to begin with is the northern island where Sapporo is. That also takes out production once you control the resource or the Straits. Once you control the seas around Japan, her biggest problem is oil (if an oil game) and considering the number of oil dependent units shown above, her stocks of oil will deplete quickly. After that it won't matter how many aircraft she has, they'll be grounded.

If it's only the victory city you care about (and that's probably all you should care about) then invade to the east of Tokyo, ideally in an undefended mountain hex which will be worth 6. You can get 30 factors with Marines and offensive shore bombardment. You'll probably have enough ships by this time to double yourself with defensive shore bombardment if Japan tries to counterattack the bridgehead, so you are unlikely to be dislodged. As defenders congregate nearby, ground strike them and keep attacking along the coast where your navy can help out, as you drive toward Tokyo. Also with the Marine and Amphib resources you're likely to have, once Japan starts reacting to one beachhead, you can easily invade elsewhere to keep her off balance.

Usually it comes down to a Land O-chit on MacArthur for the final attack to take the city.

[Klydon]

I think the first order of business is you have to get some land to get air bases. If you can pile into some place close, so much the better. There are some individual islands where you can go just off the coast of the main islands that can be useful. You can also go after one of the smaller main islands or Hokkaido. The two smaller islands look to be pretty well defended, so Hokkaido may be it. Being able to base paratroopers near will help add to the defensive issues.

Once you get them, then a heavy dose of carpet bombing in an attempt remove units to clear a path on the main island would be the way to go.

Having several O-Chits is going to be helpful as well. The first batch for super combines and the second batch for land in order to grind through defenders.

Some questions on what rules you might be playing with. Are you playing the SCS can carry divisions by chance? That would help increase the size of the landing force and perhaps allow for more multiple landings. What about unlimited breakdown?

[Shannon V. OKeets]

1 - To take the land hexes in Japan, you need to invade.
2 - To invade(1), you need to place invading units in high sea area section boxes, supported by naval units for naval shore bombardment (and tactical air if possible).
3 - To place invading units safely in sea areas adjacent to Japanese coastal hexes (2), you need to control the sea areas.
4 - To control a sea area (3), you need to have superiority in air power in the sea area.
5 - Carriers can control sea areas (4) which land based air units can't reach - but the 3 sea areas around Japan can be reached by Japanese land based air units (fighters in particular).
6 - Carriers versus land based air units is a disaster for the carriers. The land based air can take AA fire better. Any carrier air units destroyed require their carriers to return to a home port to replace the carrier air units (assuming some are available).
7 - Therefore, to fight the land based air units (6), the Allies need to have their own land based air units which can reach one or more sea areas adjacent to Japan. Note that fighters are needed more than naval air.

You start with task #7 and work your way backwards.


In general, I recommend that the side with the superior carrier fleet (including accompanying SCS units) split their naval forces into 2 (or more) fleets of comparable strength. The first can sail to support invasions. The second is held in reserve and sails only to fight the enemy fleet when it sorties. Attrition of naval forces is good for the stronger side. So is attrition of land based air units. But losing your carrier air strength to land based air is never good.

[CrusssDaddy]

Can you give a little background on this game? That's a bizarrely robust Home Islands defense, like it's been a couple years since Japan has sent troops or planes abroad. Did all their transport get killed in 1942? Have they turtled and the Allies focused solely on Europe?

[alexvand]

Bizarrely robust? This is fairly normal, perhaps even a little light in the games I've seen.

The Japanese almost always build out their entire land force pools. In this game, when things went bad in China, they pulled a fair number of units out. When there was a few turns that it looked like the Allies have a chance of driving straight to a weakly defended Home Islands for a quick conquest, the Japanese started leaving a few units back home.

As the Japanese lost control of sea zones, they'd send in a transport or two to pull out exposed corp that weren't holding objective hexes. They got away with it every time and never had a transport sunk. (They still lost a substantial land army in India when the supply lines there got cut.)

For instance, why leave 2 corps to a sure death in Canton when Manila is Allied.

Please note the Japanese have held on to a Marine, and a corp on an Amphib as an offensive threat. The mere existence of these two units of 5 mover transports means that the Allies have to keep many, many place garrisoned, tying down valuable units. But those units are also sitting in Japan.

There are just over 20 Corp in Japan. That's not that hard to assemble.

All that adds up.

[AlbertN]

Well the main problem is map difference. The force pool is studied for a different map where Japan, being so "strong" in terms of units, would be pratically non invadeable (if you look at the tabletop game map) meanwhile here it's a totally different tale.

[Centuur]

To be honest, I've never seen a Japanese player who could manage to gather these amounts of corps during the end phase of the game into the Home Islands. However, the way you've acted is correct. Try to evacuate valuable units out of places you are going to lose anyway is a good way of bolstering the defense of the Home Islands.

The trick for the Allies is to make sure the Japanese TRS have to run the gauntlet to get back to Japan...

That means that the Allies need to attack and capture Islands around the China Sea area. Getting long range FTR's and a NAV in those islands at the edge of the China Sea, together with the carriers the US has got, should make sure the Japanese cannot be able to return to base through the China Sea. Use CV task forces to stay at sea end of turn with the US, can be a devastating trick to any loaded TRS who need to return to base through the China Sea area. The land based FTR's provide good air cover for your CVP and the NAV is much more difficult to abort for the Japanese Navy too.

All this of course depends on the strategy the Allies are following: Japan first? Or Europe first? Personally, I believe Japan first is usually the best way to go in the game for the Allies, unless the USSR is in deep trouble...

If the Allies concentrate on Japan, it should be possible to knock it out of the war early 1944...

Also: because you don't use the oil rule, it is far more easier for the Japanese to operate. Usually, somewhere around end 1943, early 1944 in an oil game, suddenly there isn't enough available to reorganise all those ships anymore...

[michaelbaldur]

we are forgetting the CW and russians here..

in late game the CW should be able to move substantial naval units to the pacific

[brian brian]

A game with no Oil rule is just Axis fantasy role-playing. The game already allows them to play to the victory conditions - not an historical option for the ideologically driven Axis regimes.

The historical Japanese held 5 Objectives. So, depending on how you look at it, since Japan somewhat abandoned everything outside the Home Islands they already lost this game, or are at least down 4 points on their bid.

The Allies are looking at an uphill slog here, a very steep hill. iirc from the other thread, this is N/D 44. All of the Allies should increase their Offensive Chit gearing by one this turn and one the next and just try simple hammer assaults on Tokyo itself. Maybe they'll get lucky.

[Jagdtiger14]

Why has the US not completely built out their AMPH and TRS?

The point Shannon makes concerning carrier air vs land based air is very valid...for that very reason I dedicate at least one (most times 2) CV just for carrier air transport...west coast to theater for replacement (and even that's not enough).

The Japs having the possibility to invade an objective hex is extremely important!...I lost a game at a convention because the Japs were able to do this...got through several sea zones where I had high box pickets (a game vs Raeder for you Canadians).

Playing without oil...as Brian said, fantasy role playing game.