Helpers

[Michael T]

Are there others who find the option to use 'helpers' repugnant? More so in PBEM?

Could we get an option to turn them off in the setup screen if enough players feel the same as I do?

[elmo3]

Haven't played the Axis side yet but I've never used them on the Soviet side. Are there any, never looked?

[Michael T]

Yes there are four. Trucks, Trains, PP and Fuel.

[willgamer]

ORIGINAL: Michael T

Are there others who find the option to use 'helpers' repugnant? More so in PBEM?

Could we get an option to turn them off in the setup screen if enough players feel the same as I do?

Can't speak to PBEM, but isn't "repugnant" a little strong considering a least one reason it's available is to help new players learn the game.

The is no easy mode as applies to the action phase of the game (the EASY button applies to PP).

Even veteran grogs were newbies once up a time. [:)]

[Calaf]

Doesn't using Helpers trigger VP penalties?

[marcpennington]

Yeah, they do trigger VP penalties. I'm not experienced enough with the game system yet to judge how significant those penalties actually are, but assuming they are balanced, I actually like their inclusion to simulate emergency measures at times of crisis/ opportunity.

[Moltke71]

I don't believe their use is mandatory. If you find them "repugnant", don't use them. Otherwise, give other people a break.

[budd]

ORIGINAL: map66

Yeah, they do trigger VP penalties. I'm not experienced enough with the game system yet to judge how significant those penalties actually are, but assuming they are balanced, I actually like their inclusion to simulate emergency measures at times of crisis/ opportunity.

got to agree with this. Emergency measures is how i think of it, not as a cheat since it will effect your VP level.

[Michael T]

I don't like them because they are fanciful. Where does all this extra fuel or whatever come from? A magic wand?

However I am cool with people who want to play that way, non of my business really. But I won't and it will be a standard condition of any game I play. I thought it would be a nice *option* repeat *option* repeat *option* to be able to turn them off in the setup screen rather than have to negotiate a HR.

@Jim. How is it I need to give other people a break? Have I somehow stressed them by suggesting a setup option? Please explain.

[Michael T]

As far as the VP penalty goes, well the VP are not really that relevant. As they don't determine if you win or lose. They only determine if you qualify for a Decisive win or not.

[Flaviusx]

These helpers only exist for the Axis player, note.

In a PBEM situation, if I were playing the Sovs, I wouldn't be very thrilled playing against an Axis player helping himself while I'm stuck with what I've got. VPs or not. The option to keep these out should indeed exist. It's very obviously best suited for solo play.

[Michael T]

Maybe Cameron could chip in here as there seems to be a contradiction in the manual. In the helpers rules it says excessive use will find you in an unwinnable situation. But the victory chart indicates that VP only matter for determining whether you qualify for a Decisive win or not.

So by my understanding you can use helpers over and over yet still achieve a minor win?

Do you see why I feel repulsive towards them? Why should a player be able to wave a magic wand over and over with no real penalty?

But maybe I misinterpret the rules. Cameron?


EDIT - Was calling Cameron, Lance for some reason.

[Flaviusx]

Also, after checking these out, the VP hit seems minimal to me in relation to the benefit, at least in the case of PPs.

40 PPs in exchange for 10 VPs? Yeah, I'll take that every time, and maybe more than once. That 40 or 80 extra PPs might be what it takes to get to the big 3 objectives and win the game, and hang the VPs. The others aren't quite so dramatic in effect, but PPs are far and away the most important constraining factor for the German (and the Soviet for that matter.)

[budd]

You don't think it could help balance a PBEM game with players of different still levels? Well as long as they play Germany i guess.I missed the part about no help for the Soviets, wonder why.

[Flaviusx]

Budd, for two players who agree beforehand to such a handicap, yeah it's fine. But not everybody wants to play under such conditions.

And I still think the VP penalty is trivial in relation to the benefit so far as the PP helper goes. As an Axis player I'd do it every time. That's almost 3 turns worth of PPs. With that amount in the bank and good play you can keep more or less all your generals happy, the trucks fixed, etc. No hard choices. If you can get ahead of the PP crunch in decisions, it tends to snowball in your favor for the rest of the game, since happy generals mean lower decision costs, so this is a gift that keeps on giving.

[budd]

Good point. Being ahead of the PP crunch would take a lot of the fun out of the game. I guess it would be nice as an option for PBEM players to switch off. Although a house rule should be good enough.

[Michael T]

Really are VP that relevant at all? I mean a win is a win. Whether minor or decisive. Maybe another discussion is warranted for that subject. I would really like to see a certain VP superiority by one side or the other actually determine a winner if a decisive or minor win is not achieved. Perhaps rather than a draw with an advantage it could be a marginal win if you reach a certain VP threshold. Also a draw would still be possible under the current matrix. To clarify, a level of victory should be possible if you have a clear superiority in VP at game end. That way VP accumulation or loss would actually mean something.

[marcpennington]

As I read this thread more, I'm coming down on that helpers should be in the game for PBEM, as one plays a "mid-level" commander (if that's the right word for Halder) where resources are being withheld from a higher level, and in certain circumstances he might want to play all his connections to get more of something or other freed up. But the penalty needs to be a meaningful one, and it doesn't sound like that is the case here.

I'll have to double-check, but my Soviet PBEM opponent mentioned having helper buttons on his side as well--- maybe does the option only appear for Soviets in head to head games? We certainly had discussed whether to play them or not, and he had mentioned doing one.

[Flaviusx]

Can't say what happens in PBEM, but I just checked this for solo, and the Soviet definitely gets no helpers there.

Not seeing helpers for the Sovs in a hot seat PvP either.

[budd]

Manual says the Soviets get 1 helper button