Diplomacy

[Chris21wen]

I've a Mutual Defence pact with a Nation. We have been at war with another resulting in the nation being subjugated to me. To my mind this should also force them to end they war with my defensive partner (e.g. they do what I tell them) but it hasn't. Even if it doesn't do it automatically I should be able to use the diplomacy screen to tell them to make peace with my partners.

Nothing happens automatically and I can find no option for telling them to make peace. In fact I can find no way of asking any nation to make peace with any one. Am I missing something or is the diplomacy in the game deeply flawed in this respect.

[Bingeling]

As you have discovered, subjugation does not work too well.

You can go to negotiate a trade proposal and see if there is an option to "End war with...". I doubt there is, but if there is a possibility, that would be the way to do it.

Whenever I have subjugated I have usually ended up conquering rather soon afterwards.

Alliances here is just a way to ask allies for help. A better alliance system would also help in this case. "No peace unless you also surrender to my buddy", but that would also require a new idea of surrendering, and what if the buddy is not interested?

[Chris21wen]

ORIGINAL: Bingeling

As you have discovered, subjugation does not work too well.

You can go to negotiate a trade proposal and see if there is an option to "End war with...". I doubt there is, but if there is a possibility, that would be the way to do it.

Whenever I have subjugated I have usually ended up conquering rather soon afterwards.

Alliances here is just a way to ask allies for help. A better alliance system would also help in this case. "No peace unless you also surrender to my buddy", but that would also require a new idea of surrendering, and what if the buddy is not interested?

I can't argue with anything you said and you right, there is no "End the war with.."

Many games of this genre, even CIV, have limited democracy options but DW seems to have fewer than most.

[Cauldyth]

Yeah, for DW2 I'm hoping for something more like what's in Paradox games when it comes to wars. In DW, war is just one particular state of relations between two, and only two, empires. In Paradox games, a war is an entity unto itself. It has a cause, a list of participants on each side, and it ends in its entirety, not piecemeal.

[aaatoysandmore]

There's not much diplomacy that I see anyways in this game. It's more about how much money you have to buy other AI into a war or trade embargo. I had one game going where I could agree to join a trade embargo for tons of techs and money and then on the same screen while paused go to the other AI I had agreed to embargo and or go to war and lift the embargo or end the war for little to no cost at all compared to what I got. The AI is hilarious with the way it plays this diplomacy game if you want to call it that. It's just buying and selling friendships back n forth. I once did this like 4 times in a row to one faction and gained all it's high techs for basically nothing. Just agree to join a war or embargo. lol

This part of diplomacy needs a limit to the number of ingame months or years you have to play before you can try to lift embargos or end wars. Something like 1 year or 2 years of ingame play ought to do it. As it is the AI is soooo easy to exploit in so many ways in this game. Not very good beta testing or design decisions again I see.

[ehsumrell1]

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

As it is the AI is soooo easy to exploit in so many ways in this game. Not very good beta testing or design decisions again I see.

aaatoysandmore;

Not attempting to start any type of negativity or flaming here, but please show me a space 4X game similar
to DW where the AI can't get exploited by a human player. Then, even if you do, please define for all us
beta testers what beta testing has to do with it. We beta testers discover and kill as many bugs, crashes
and errors we can find (and create if possible), and provide reports to the developer. The game works and
runs as the manual states it should the high majority of the time, that's the reason for beta testing. SO
the game can run properly. Any quirks, exploits, etcetera found in any game at release can create issues
with both AI and game play decisions. I guess I'm just trying to figure out the reasoning of why you bash
us DW beta testers. Especially since I am one, and have been since Return of the Shakturi, and I also am
one who has modded this game to enhance game play. Guess I'm just needing to know whether to take the red
pill or the blue pill concerning some of your negativity. Rebuttal comment is wholehearted welcome as long
as it remains civil and to the topic. Thanks!

[btd64]

Ed. Getting close to red button....GP

[Chris21wen]

ORIGINAL: ehsumrell1

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

As it is the AI is soooo easy to exploit in so many ways in this game. Not very good beta testing or design decisions again I see.

aaatoysandmore;

Not attempting to start any type of negativity or flaming here, but please show me a space 4X game similar
to DW where the AI can't get exploited by a human player. Then, even if you do, please define for all us
beta testers what beta testing has to do with it. We beta testers discover and kill as many bugs, crashes
and errors we can find (and create if possible), and provide reports to the developer. The game works and
runs as the manual states it should the high majority of the time, that's the reason for beta testing. SO
the game can run properly. Any quirks, exploits, etcetera found in any game at release can create issues
with both AI and game play decisions. I guess I'm just trying to figure out the reasoning of why you bash
us DW beta testers. Especially since I am one, and have been since Return of the Shakturi, and I also am
one who has modded this game to enhance game play. Guess I'm just needing to know whether to take the red
pill or the blue pill concerning some of your negativity. Rebuttal comment is wholehearted welcome as long
as it remains civil and to the topic. Thanks!

I don't agree with the comments made on Beta testing and, as you pointed out, diplomacy in many games like this can and are exploited by a human players and always will be, that's human nature.

However the diplomacy options in DW are not good enough. If you wish to refer to my comments as negativity that is up to you but it is my intent to improve the game.

[Bingeling]

Chris H: I am pretty sure that message was not aimed at you.

It is not a new opinion that Diplomacy is not the strongest side of this game. It is functional, but simplistic, and very open to abuse. I solve it by avoiding doing certain things (like tech trading, or trading contested bases for cash or technology).

[btd64]

Chris H, Not directed at you my friend. We all know the issues. It's just that a few or the one choose to bash not only the game 99% of us love but the developers and the beta testers as well. Their are other threads as well that show what i'm talking about. I don't play this game to "make money". I play this game because it is a Strategic Game set in space. The games I like the most are grand in scale.

But some just like to complain. So if the person continues he will get the red button....GP

[ehsumrell1]

ORIGINAL: Chris H

...If you wish to refer to my comments as negativity that is up to you but it is my intent to improve the game.

As in the aforementioned posts Chris H, my post and the comments within were specifically
addressing statements made by aaatoysandmore, not you.

[ASHBERY76]

DW is the easiest diplomacy system to farm money and manipulate the A.I than any strategy I have experienced.I have to force house rules to stop me doing it.

Subjugated has been a joke treaty for years.Worthless as all the other empires can force the same treaty on them,lol.The whole alliance system is poorly done too.I was amazed this was never looked at after ROS.I cited the Paradox system many times.

[ehsumrell1]

All these comments and opinions are valid and understood Ashbery76. My point is though that us beta testers can only do three things. Test specific parts, levels or updates to the game during early-to-mid development. Report our findings/opinions/etcetera to the developer/development team members. Then finally, play-test the pre-release version of
the game across as many OS platforms as directed until at least all of the MAJOR bugs/crashes are determined, found and killed. I'm not saying this directly at you or anyone in general (for I KNOW you know how the ball rolls concerning this). Whether the diplomacy system sucks or is masterfully brilliant has NOTHING to do with any individual or team of beta testers. Whether the either sucky or masterfully brilliant diplomacy system operates as the game manual/developer's intent/etcetera claims without crashing or freezing the game does. That's all.

Play on everyone. For now at least, the game is what it is. No matter what I, or
my modding team members, or my fellow beta test team members say...the game runs, and
for me it runs just fine!

So barring any legitimate and civil rebuttal, I've spent enough time speaking on this topic. I'm going to finish enjoying my birthday now!

[aaatoysandmore]

Go play "War of the Lance" it has a diplomacy feature and tell me how you exploited it. Go on I dare you. [:D] In fact tell me any exploit you find in the game. I played it like 10 times straight through and I'll be damned if I ever found an exploit. It has one of the best diplomacy systems I ever played and Spartan by Slitherine has the next although I do remember finding one exploit in it but it wasn't that big of an exploit.

[ehsumrell1]

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

Go play "War of the Lance" it has a diplomacy feature and tell me how you exploited it. Go on I dare you. [:D] In fact tell me any exploit you find in the game. I played it like 10 times straight through and I'll be damned if I ever found an exploit. It has one of the best diplomacy systems I ever played and Spartan by Slitherine has the next although I do remember finding one exploit in it but it wasn't that big of an exploit.

@aaatoysandmore

I've never played "War of the Lance". There are many games I haven't played...but many I also have played, and some I've even modded. But that's neither here nor there concerning your continued bashing of the beta testers of Distant Worlds.

Not sure if you read my post#6 in this thread above before you wrote this, but in closing, I'll just restate from my aforementioned post:

"Then, even if you do, please define for all us beta testers what beta testing has to do with it. We beta testers discover and kill as many bugs, crashes and errors we can find (and create if possible), and provide reports to the developer." WE...are NOT the developer(s)! Requests for a better diplomacy system need to be reported within the Master Wishlist Thread of this forum, from which I know that Elliot reviews
and considers the suggestions therein.

[aaatoysandmore]

If I have to answer that question for you then you surely do not need to be beta testing. For a beta tester should know what he's supposed to do.

[ehsumrell1]

I see this is a waste of my time. You obviously did not comprehend my statement that
you responded to, or answer it, since what DW beta testers do is defined in the next
sentence.

Nevertheless, as I mentioned before, and respectfully speaking, comments on improving
Distant Worlds should be posted in the Master Wishlist Thread so Elliot and Erik can
read them. THAT would be the best solution for all this.

Moving on...

[ASHBERY76]

I don't think you need to post on the masterlist about diplomacy.One just needs to play it to see.