Waypoints causing TFs to not refuel small ships?

[Lokasenna]

OK, I think this is worth looking at. I don't know what's going on here, but I just lost another escort ship inside of a convoy because the Sys damage slowly crept up as the ship was out of fuel. However, all of the other ships in the convoy had plenty of fuel in their bunkers and could've refueled it.

This particular instance is not on a CS convoy - just a regular TF with waypoints set on the way to the destination.

Here is the previous thread:
tm.asp?m=3962072

Here's the TF the turn after it lost an SC:



I suspect it's something to do with the waypoint system...

[Lokasenna]

Here are the waypoint settings.

It's set to not refuel at the waypoint, but that shouldn't have anything to do with whether the TF redistributes fuel at sea or not.

[Lokasenna]

Here's the save file for the previous turn for this particular instance.

[Lokasenna]

And here's the save file for this turn.

Near as I can tell from Tracker, the issue started 12 turns ago. On Turn 977, it ran out of fuel and had 1 Sys damage. THen on turn 989, it sunks, going from 74 Sys to 77 and then being abandoned.

[BBfanboy]

If the tankers have marginal fuel for the return trip they will not share. I have on many occasions had to change the home port of my convoy to get them to share fuel with others.
Other than that, are there some ships (besides subs) that cannot refuel at sea?

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

If the tankers have marginal fuel for the return trip they will not share. I have on many occasions had to change the home port of my convoy to get them to share fuel with others.
Other than that, are there some ships (besides subs) that cannot refuel at sea?

It should be going off of the calculated distance vs. endurance there, should it not? 66 out of 161 total hexes they can go... That shouldn't be anywhere near the threshold to prevent refueling, right? Besides that, I thought it was always about the destination, not the home port/return trip, for whether fuel would be shared.

Now, that 66 is also wrong - they haven't made Sorong yet and have to sail back to Pearl, which is far more than 66 hexes. I suspect that 66 is actually where they are now, to Sorong, then back to Rabaul.

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

If the tankers have marginal fuel for the return trip they will not share. I have on many occasions had to change the home port of my convoy to get them to share fuel with others.
Other than that, are there some ships (besides subs) that cannot refuel at sea?

It should be going off of the calculated distance vs. endurance there, should it not? 66 out of 161 total hexes they can go... That shouldn't be anywhere near the threshold to prevent refueling, right? Besides that, I thought it was always about the destination, not the home port/return trip, for whether fuel would be shared.

Now, that 66 is also wrong - they haven't made Sorong yet and have to sail back to Pearl, which is far more than 66 hexes. I suspect that 66 is actually where they are now, to Sorong, then back to Rabaul.

Pretty sure it is return trip calculation + something like 25% reserve. At least that is around the mark where I can successfully get my ships to buddy-fuel.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

If the tankers have marginal fuel for the return trip they will not share. I have on many occasions had to change the home port of my convoy to get them to share fuel with others.
Other than that, are there some ships (besides subs) that cannot refuel at sea?

It should be going off of the calculated distance vs. endurance there, should it not? 66 out of 161 total hexes they can go... That shouldn't be anywhere near the threshold to prevent refueling, right? Besides that, I thought it was always about the destination, not the home port/return trip, for whether fuel would be shared.

Now, that 66 is also wrong - they haven't made Sorong yet and have to sail back to Pearl, which is far more than 66 hexes. I suspect that 66 is actually where they are now, to Sorong, then back to Rabaul.

Pretty sure it is return trip calculation + something like 25% reserve. At least that is around the mark where I can successfully get my ships to buddy-fuel.

Even if this is true... shouldn't this calculation show up somewhere in the line that shows 161 / 66 in this screenshot? The part where it shows "66" should be the number of hexes for the remaining trip, which should take the waypoints into account. I can think of several points where this might be broken:

1) waypoints in general
2) "return same route" set to yes
3) calculating distance to destination then distance to first waypoint on return route, as I hypothesized above...

If #3 isn't happening, then I have no idea where that 66 number is coming from above.


Also, I don't normally set a base as my waypoint. For the previous examples in the CS thread, all waypoints were at sea, and the same behavior was occurring.

All TFs did have "return same route" set, I believe (the waypoints were set to avoid persistent Netty attacks and Mavis/Emily searches, so if I didn't set that to "Yes" then I made a mistake as I certainly meant to).

[michaelm75au]

The ships are getting refueled from the TF when I ran the turn (Aug 20,1944). The PC has endurance now.
Not sure why it didn't when you ran your turn.

The distribution of fuel happens before moving; way point path isn't necessarily of concern when this happens

[michaelm75au]

It does seem to be slightly random, but it is the amount of required endurance vs actual endurance of TF that is causing them SC not get to be re-fueled.
I think I have found a way to counter this.
Loaded up your CV reacting save. This also has the TF350, with both SCs running on empty. With the proposed change, the SCs manage to get some fuel to continue on towards the destination. Plus side it that they don;t keep holding back the rest of TF. TF arrived 3 or 4 days earlier than the 23 Aug.[:D]

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: michaelm

It does seem to be slightly random, but it is the amount of required endurance vs actual endurance of TF that is causing them SC not get to be re-fueled.
I think I have found a way to counter this.
Loaded up your CV reacting save. This also has the TF350, with both SCs running on empty. With the proposed change, the SCs manage to get some fuel to continue on towards the destination. Plus side it that they don;t keep holding back the rest of TF. TF arrived 3 or 4 days earlier than the 23 Aug.[:D]

Yeah, basically they cause the entire TF to move as if they're out of fuel when this happens.

OK, so it is the calculation on required endurance, then, as suggested by some folks. That would also explain why the TFs sent to the Gilberts (for example) don't seem to have this problem, as it's a shorter trip. Odd that yours refueled anyway but mine didn't. I'm running the latest beta. Out of curiosity, what did you decide to change?

[michaelm75au]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: michaelm

It does seem to be slightly random, but it is the amount of required endurance vs actual endurance of TF that is causing them SC not get to be re-fueled.
I think I have found a way to counter this.
Loaded up your CV reacting save. This also has the TF350, with both SCs running on empty. With the proposed change, the SCs manage to get some fuel to continue on towards the destination. Plus side it that they don;t keep holding back the rest of TF. TF arrived 3 or 4 days earlier than the 23 Aug.[:D]

Yeah, basically they cause the entire TF to move as if they're out of fuel when this happens.

OK, so it is the calculation on required endurance, then, as suggested by some folks. That would also explain why the TFs sent to the Gilberts (for example) don't seem to have this problem, as it's a shorter trip. Odd that yours refueled anyway but mine didn't. I'm running the latest beta. Out of curiosity, what did you decide to change?

Basically, if there was a '0' endurance ship, try to give it some fuel even if the endurance required check failed. This will mean that the TF will always try to move at the required speed, where as now, it starts to crawl along. [This is a compromise in that the TF being able to move at a reasonable pace is probably more important than forcing compliance with the required endurance check. Calculation of the endurance is a rough figure in that the actual path followed may may vary each turn (and thus the 'endurance required' vary).]
You could always force a fuel re-distribution during the turn when there was no endurance on a ship.
I've always included an AO on long trips where there were short-legged ships involved.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: michaelm

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: michaelm

It does seem to be slightly random, but it is the amount of required endurance vs actual endurance of TF that is causing them SC not get to be re-fueled.
I think I have found a way to counter this.
Loaded up your CV reacting save. This also has the TF350, with both SCs running on empty. With the proposed change, the SCs manage to get some fuel to continue on towards the destination. Plus side it that they don;t keep holding back the rest of TF. TF arrived 3 or 4 days earlier than the 23 Aug.[:D]

Yeah, basically they cause the entire TF to move as if they're out of fuel when this happens.

OK, so it is the calculation on required endurance, then, as suggested by some folks. That would also explain why the TFs sent to the Gilberts (for example) don't seem to have this problem, as it's a shorter trip. Odd that yours refueled anyway but mine didn't. I'm running the latest beta. Out of curiosity, what did you decide to change?

Basically, if there was a '0' endurance ship, try to give it some fuel even if the endurance required check failed. This will mean that the TF will always try to move at the required speed, where as now, it starts to crawl along. [This is a compromise in that the TF being able to move at a reasonable pace is probably more important than forcing compliance with the required endurance check. Calculation of the endurance is a rough figure in that the actual path followed may may vary each turn (and thus the 'endurance required' vary).]
You could always force a fuel re-distribution during the turn when there was no endurance on a ship.
I've always included an AO on long trips where there were short-legged ships involved.

In the previous thread, there was an AO on the trip for one of the convoys (TF 429) but it appeared to make no difference [&:].

[michaelm75au]

I have tweaked the code to specifically handle TF routing in the fuel checking code, as this could cause some issues with calculating the distance to 'home base' [in some cases, the TF had '0' hexes and in others, the direct sea path length to home; this was used to get the required endurance needed to reach the destination].

[PaxMondo]

Nice. Thanks Michael for the ongoing, superlative support!


[&o][&o][&o]

[Lokasenna]

You rock! Now just let us know about that multiple reaction thing! [:'(]

[btd64]

On long trips with low endurance ships I will set the way points to ports with fuel and set the TF to refuel. The amount of refuel, Tactical, Full, etc, Depends on the trip. But it works and I don't have to worry about losing any ships. It's happened to me many, many times. And AO's are not always available....GP