Pripyat Marshes and supply

[Franciscus]

In my experience with 1.02 (and on Easy, fast AI [8D]), I had to commit the whole of 4th army, half of 6th army and some units of 2nd PG to deal with the "creatures from the swamp" (i.e., more than 15 soviet divisions and a HQ) on the mashes. Only in late august was I able to pocket them and destroy them in full, and Gomel was indeed the key.
The downside is that my AGC offensive stalled down west of Smolensk, even having to retreat some hexes due to strong soviet counterattacks...

In September the Soviet plan was revealed: defend Moscow at all costs. So it kind of made sense, for the AI. But I have serious doubts about the realism of having such large-scale swampy warfare in Barbarossa...

Regards

[KenchiSulla]

Indeed, Gomel probably will not fall until August. But is that really a problem? The Soviet AI in this case decided to commit infantry to the Marsh, German PGs bypass the marshes and leave it to the infantry while bleeding the Soviet front, finally achieving a breakthrough (find the weak spots...)

Interesting play I would say.... Fight for the lines of communication...

Pripyat in August

[mannerheim4]

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

Indeed, Gomel probably will not fall until August. But is that really a problem? The Soviet AI in this case decided to commit infantry to the Marsh, German PGs bypass the marshes and leave it to the infantry while bleeding the Soviet front, finally achieving a breakthrough (find the weak spots...)

Interesting play I would say.... Fight for the lines of communication...

Pripyat in August

And how will that breakthrough be achieved without any infantry, since they are guarding the southern flank?

[KenchiSulla]

See the AAR I linked, I managed to do it... 2nd and 6th army and a good part of 4th tied down but ultimately a pocket of around 45 divisions was formed.. Soviets can't be strong everywhere

Your infantry should not just guard. Don't be afraid to take losses, grind away at the rifle divisions and find that weak spot... Then let the tanks roll....

[mannerheim4]

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

See the AAR I linked, I managed to do it... 2nd and 6th army and a good part of 4th tied down but ultimately a pocket of around 45 divisions was formed.. Soviets can't be strong everywhere

Your infantry should not just guard. Don't be afraid to take losses, grind away at the rifle divisions and find that weak spot... Then let the tanks roll....

Thanks for the link to the pictures. That was certainly an unusual Soviet set up in your August pics. I wonder if such a defense is even physically possible (naturally, it is in the game...) In my experience, most of the Russians line up just east of Minsk in several rows. The Soviets do not take such a strong position in the marshes, but still require a commitment of a large holding force, the 4th Army. My 2nd Army ended up closer to AGN and the 3rd Pz Group. Same with 6th Army, they are largely committed in holding Soviet forces to allow 1st Panzer a smaller front to breakthrough. Thus, periphery 6th ARmy units are largely out of command and are not much good at attacking.

My experience with the game so far is that it is not a good idea to attack units in the marshes, there are just not enough losses to even force a retreat in most cases. However, that might be tempered with the fact that many of the 4th Army units holding this flank were out of command because the Army was also trying to hold the eastern line to allow the panzers to attempt breakthroughs near Mogliev and Vitebsk.

The question then becomes - is the Soviet Pripiat defense you experienced an historical hypothetically possible situation?

btw, how do you take screen shots of your maps?

Regards

[James Ward]

Historically there were very few operations in the marshes and there was a reason for this. It was very difficult to move, supply or coordinate any maneuvers in them outside of the few roads going through them. The fact that the Russians can assault through them in 1941 is a bit much.

[Iñaki Harrizabalagatar]

There is to note that in 1941 the Germans employed the only cavalry units they had, the 1st Cav Div and the SS Cav brigade, in the Pripyat marshes, because their mobility was superior to infantry in that terrain. The combed the marshes fighting Soviet stragglers. Interestingly the Soviet army also used cavalry units in the terrain.However in the game if you detach 1st Cav Div from 2nd PzGroup it will get out of command radius and become inoperative.

There are 2 separated problems related to the Prypiat marshes in the game.

1) Supply is unhistorically high, no problem supplying armies in the swamp.

2) The Soviets have lots of HQs. In a PBEM I am playing as Soviet I have been able to send an army sneaking through the marshes with his HQ, so the units remain in command, without much weakening the Central Front, and I have cut the railway Brest-Minsk. For the german player to send one of their armies to protect communications is very serious, he has only 3 infantry armies in AGC

[mannerheim4]

ORIGINAL: Iñaki Harrizabalagatar

There is to note that in 1941 the Germans employed the only cavalry units they had, the 1st Cav Div and the SS Cav brigade, in the Pripyat marshes, because their mobility was superior to infantry in that terrain. The combed the marshes fighting Soviet stragglers. Interestingly the Soviet army also used cavalry units in the terrain.However in the game if you detach 1st Cav Div from 2nd PzGroup it will get out of command radius and become inoperative.

There are 2 separated problems related to the Prypiat marshes in the game.

1) Supply is unhistorically high, no problem supplying armies in the swamp.

2) The Soviets have lots of HQs. In a PBEM I am playing as Soviet I have been able to send an army sneaking through the marshes with his HQ, so the units remain in command, without much weakening the Central Front, and I have cut the railway Brest-Minsk. For the german player to send one of their armies to protect communications is very serious, he has only 3 infantry armies in AGC

Well said. This is a serious problem in the game. It's one thing to have hypotheticals, like committing two Panzer Army Groups in the South. Another thing altogether from being PREVENTED from moving at historical rates by the game mechanics or having to commit an entire Army's worth of infantry to guard a flank against "sniping".

These go beyond historical hypotheticals and makes the game "unplayable" for people who enjoy historical realism. I'm not talking about whether the 20th Panzer Division had Pz 38 tanks, but whether the players are faced with similar decisions and face similar consequences as their historical counterparts.... I think there needs to be some serious consideration of these defects in the game. I hope it works out, the game as great potential and I would really like something at the strategic level better than WITE.

[KenchiSulla]

I'm using Greenshot to take screenshots

[etsadler]

The "way it worked historically" is not generally the "only way it could have happened". Unless you just want to watch history repeat itself there needs to be the capacity for different events than purely historical.

At that point I think you then look to see if it is a "can't" or a "didn't". If it is indeed a "can't" then game mechanics to prevent it are appropriate. If it is a "didn't" then ask "why"? If the "why" is not something that is important in the game then a mechanic to prevent it is appropriate. But if the same reason "why" the thing didn't happen historically is a factor in the game, and preventing choice on the part of a player (or AI) solely to force a "historical" result is, IMHO, not a proper design choice.

"Didn't Happen" is not the same as "Couldn't Happen" or even "Shouldn't Happen". While there has been some discussion about causes and reasons most of the discussion has just been (IMHO) that the result is not historical as so must be changed. What prevented the SU from doing this is real life? Is that same limiter present in the game? If not, then a rule is probably OK, if it is, then what is the consequence of the SU doing so, both in RL and in game, etc.

[James Ward]

ORIGINAL: Iñaki Harrizabalagatar

There is to note that in 1941 the Germans employed the only cavalry units they had, the 1st Cav Div and the SS Cav brigade, in the Pripyat marshes, because their mobility was superior to infantry in that terrain. The combed the marshes fighting Soviet stragglers. Interestingly the Soviet army also used cavalry units in the terrain.However in the game if you detach 1st Cav Div from 2nd PzGroup it will get out of command radius and become inoperative.

There are 2 separated problems related to the Prypiat marshes in the game.

1) Supply is unhistorically high, no problem supplying armies in the swamp.

2) The Soviets have lots of HQs. In a PBEM I am playing as Soviet I have been able to send an army sneaking through the marshes with his HQ, so the units remain in command, without much weakening the Central Front, and I have cut the railway Brest-Minsk. For the german player to send one of their armies to protect communications is very serious, he has only 3 infantry armies in AGC

Your point 2 is the biggest reason why the russians can pull off an unrealistic advance through the marshes. They have so many HQ's that they can totally out maneuver the germans through them. This is certainly at odds with their historical capabilities.

Perhaps if the front HQ's had a command range for the army HQ's this could limit any russian offensive. Then the russian could still defend in the marshes but not advance and with a defense to far forward you would almost certainly lose your army HQ.

[ChuckBerger]

If folks are so worried about the marshes... just take them. Rush PzG2 from Brest-Litovsk straight through the marshes. I did it in my game against MichaelT and took Gomel (undefended) on turn 3. Even if a Russian army is placed in Gomel, odds are you can take it turn 3 or 4.

And there's a nice little path headed north to Mogilev, so if you want you can split the PzG into 2 bits - one to hit Gomel, another to flank Minsk/Mogilev from the south - and it's possible to keep both groups in command radius.

This approach has drawbacks, of course - but so does everything.

[Iñaki Harrizabalagatar]

I am playing a PBEM with Germans v1.02 and my opponent didn´t have the chance to do it, as Flaviusx predicted, because I took Gomel early in August, and Gomel is the key for the Soviet strategy in the Prypiat, with the city in German hands any army in the marshes can easily be cut off and left to starve.

However RickInVA has a valid point. Historically the Soviets didn´t have the chance to implement that strategy because, as in my game, Gomel fell in August 20. In my other PBEM as Soviet v1.01 I had no problem holding Gomel (and we are already in September) so I tried that strategy succesfully.

Now, in RL, could a Soviet army move, and more importantly, be supplied in a march through the Prypiat marshes? In 1944 the 1st Byelorussian Front could, but in 1941 German 1st Cavlary Div had to live off the country, because logistics completely broke down. Perhaps anyona can point to any study on the subject?

[Iñaki Harrizabalagatar]

ORIGINAL: ChuckBerger

If folks are so worried about the marshes... just take them. Rush PzG2 from Brest-Litovsk straight through the marshes.

Well,that for sure was impossible in RL, and shows what I wrote in my first post starting this thread, that marshes allow for too much supply to go through.

[willgamer]

ORIGINAL: RickInVA

The "way it worked historically" is not generally the "only way it could have happened". Unless you just want to watch history repeat itself there needs to be the capacity for different events than purely historical.

At that point I think you then look to see if it is a "can't" or a "didn't". If it is indeed a "can't" then game mechanics to prevent it are appropriate. If it is a "didn't" then ask "why"? If the "why" is not something that is important in the game then a mechanic to prevent it is appropriate. But if the same reason "why" the thing didn't happen historically is a factor in the game, and preventing choice on the part of a player (or AI) solely to force a "historical" result is, IMHO, not a proper design choice.

"Didn't Happen" is not the same as "Couldn't Happen" or even "Shouldn't Happen". While there has been some discussion about causes and reasons most of the discussion has just been (IMHO) that the result is not historical as so must be changed. What prevented the SU from doing this is real life? Is that same limiter present in the game? If not, then a rule is probably OK, if it is, then what is the consequence of the SU doing so, both in RL and in game, etc.

Given the excellence of the German staff, one thing that most certainly wouldn't be allowed to stand is an army boundary that zig-zags across the main line of communication, the road, in a way that prevents any one army from dealing with an actual threat! [X(]

If the current boundary is historically correct, there was no realized historical threat; if the game allows such threat, the boundary becomes incorrect and must be allowed to be moved for proper operations.

[James Ward]

ORIGINAL: Iñaki Harrizabalagatar

I am playing a PBEM with Germans v1.02 and my opponent didn´t have the chance to do it, as Flaviusx predicted, because I took Gomel early in August, and Gomel is the key for the Soviet strategy in the Prypiat, with the city in German hands any army in the marshes can easily be cut off and left to starve.

However RickInVA has a valid point. Historically the Soviets didn´t have the chance to implement that strategy because, as in my game, Gomel fell in August 20. In my other PBEM as Soviet v1.01 I had no problem holding Gomel (and we are already in September) so I tried that strategy succesfully.

Now, in RL, could a Soviet army move, and more importantly, be supplied in a march through the Prypiat marshes? In 1944 the 1st Byelorussian Front could, but in 1941 German 1st Cavlary Div had to live off the country, because logistics completely broke down. Perhaps anyona can point to any study on the subject?

Even in 1944 there wasn't so much of an offensive in the marshes as there was a rush through them. Most of fighting in Bagration took place east of the marshes. To deploy an army or even a corp off the roads in the marshes for any length of time was just not feasible.

[battlevonwar]

I noticed it's a very vulnerable location from Brest to AGC FBS supply if the Russians deploy 20 divisions in the Marshes. Which I have finally learned how to cope with my last few games. If the Germans go directly North with 6 Army early they more or less link up with an AGC Operation and cut the Russians off. I like to with the AI (who will let me) remove my troops from view and it naturally fills the void there and lets this happen think it will cut me at Brest. Then I pocket 20-50 Red Divisions. Can be achieved with less units using Panzers/Motorized. You just need 1 or 2 silly Sacrificial Divisions on the Southern Pripyet Rail line and then an Army along the borders of the Marsh which can be move to mop up afterwards or rested and drive along the Rail North to join AGC again.

In my PBEM games, not such an easy trap. A human opponent will not try the same mistake. I haven't witnessed it at least. They will devote piecemeal a couple of units and go directly for the Brest~Minsk Rail. Maybe... If they bother at all. Usually they would those armies East of Minsk blocking German movement and filling mores and gaps and buying more time till bad weather hits. The Mud is more dangerous than the Marshes. AGC Center from Minsk to Smolensk could be a little larger for operations..The Narrows and the Marshes squeezing them tighter along with rivers and tons of Forts make this the most formidable region aside getting close to Leningrad...

[governato]

Nothing like to look at some Russian maps of the prypet marshes to get an idea of what happened there.
They are attached below, but here is the executive summary.

1) yes there were several infantry division in the marshes in July 41. Two German and two Russian in AGC sector, and 2-4 for each side in AGS sector. Some Mechanized divisions got stuck there as well.

2) the Red Army did not conduct any offensives, but rather a step by step withdrawal. Similarly the Wehrmacht just kept contact with the enemy.

3) The AGS sector involved more units on both sides, possibly as a railroad passed through the area (see third map below)

4) the German 1st Cav division was in the marshes for only a few weeks in early July.

Some info about the Geman 45th ID is HERE and then HERE for the the 293rd, there is an interesting mention of the 293rd getting support from armored trains (if google translated right from German )

[governato]

Here is AGS (not the time frame is slightly different).

[governato]

I am not sure how feasible this is, but a good option 'd be to shift the existing Brest to Gomel railway a couple hexes South and having it reach Kiev instead This way it's be harder to sneak in a lot of supplied Red Army (or German) forces in the AGC sector, where historically there were only a couple, and likely depleted as they were never rotated to rest.