Unhistorical Air system - WAD but a poor design in my opinion

Gary Grigsby’s War in the West 1943-45 is the most ambitious and detailed computer wargame on the Western Front of World War II ever made. Starting with the Summer 1943 invasions of Sicily and Italy and proceeding through the invasions of France and the drive into Germany, War in the West brings you all the Allied campaigns in Western Europe and the capability to re-fight the Western Front according to your plan.

Moderators: Joel Billings, RedLancer

Post Reply
User avatar
Peltonx
Posts: 5814
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2006 2:24 am
Contact:

Unhistorical Air system - WAD but a poor design in my opinion

Post by Peltonx »

I been playing a game vs KWG here.

tm.asp?m=3957709&mpage=7&key=


He has posted allot of loss data himself so I like to first thank him for suppling so much data
[&o]

I have trended in game data for 10 turns, again you can go to thread and see the lose ratios I and KWG has posted with SS's.

Single turn loses and over all and how the loses are caused.

So here is the historical and in game data.

Here is a standard turn-you can go to thread and see allot more of the same but figured I put an example to save people
hrs of reading.

So all of the allied planes are used to tacticly bomb, they tactically bomb every single turn.

Germany has not been bombed for 10 weeks and no V-1 sites have been bombed.



Image
Attachments
1.jpg
1.jpg (299.43 KiB) Viewed 1700 times
Beta Tester WitW & WitE
User avatar
Peltonx
Posts: 5814
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2006 2:24 am
Contact:

RE: Is this a Desert Storm Exploit or WW II?

Post by Peltonx »

Only 4 battles which total 8k dead and total dead for turn was 44,000 so 65%
of loses is caused by bombing alone and I am taking out 4-5k for attrition.
So 3 months of non-historical loses as we all know bombing only caused 10-15% of loses.
And we all know Operation Cobra lasted a week not 10 weeks even then it only caused 50%

Again if you want you can go to the thread and see more turns showing the same data, most of the loses are caused by bombing.

Liquadsky ran tests and was able to kill 20K per turn - in thread also.

Image
Attachments
2.jpg
2.jpg (127.8 KiB) Viewed 1700 times
Beta Tester WitW & WitE
User avatar
Peltonx
Posts: 5814
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2006 2:24 am
Contact:

RE: Is this a Desert Storm Exploit or WW II?

Post by Peltonx »

Turn 49
WA Loses: 256,000
GHC Loses: 268,000
Turn 58
WA Loses: 342,000
GHC Loses: 554,000
Total loses last 10 turns
WA Loses: 86,000
GHC Loses: 286,000
Ratio: 3.5 to 1 Historical lose ratio for Normandy 1:1 and most caused by artillery fire not bombing.



Image
Attachments
3.jpg
3.jpg (163.46 KiB) Viewed 1700 times
Beta Tester WitW & WitE
User avatar
Peltonx
Posts: 5814
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2006 2:24 am
Contact:

RE: Is this a Desert Storm Exploit or WW II?

Post by Peltonx »

There is down side to this exploit as can clearly be seen not bombing Germany or V sites give zip for VP’s and Loses are kept light because the planes kill at least 60-70% of the Germans.

Image
Attachments
4.jpg
4.jpg (125.04 KiB) Viewed 1700 times
Beta Tester WitW & WitE
User avatar
Peltonx
Posts: 5814
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2006 2:24 am
Contact:

RE: Is this a Desert Storm Exploit or WW II?

Post by Peltonx »

I posted the data, the historical loses for Normandy, historical loses based on type.

If you like to post based on data historical or in game to say how this is not an exploit do, post away.

If your simply going to whine or say so and so exploites so that makes this exploit ok don't P

I like to look at data not silliness.

As we all know planes should not be doing 2/3 of the KIA for 10 weeks, sure a few weeks but this is simple another Middle Earth WAD exploit.

This is not Desert Storm, its WW II


KWG was nice enough to post this on operation Cobra

panzer lehr
Bayerlein left a remarkable account of the effects of the COBRA bombing and ground assault on his already war-weary command.
In response to postwar interrogation he wrote:

We had the main losses by pattern bombing, less by artillery, still less by tanks and smaller arms.
The actual losses of dead and wounded were approximately:

by bombing 50%
by artillery 30%
by other weapons 20%


So Operation Cobra lasted a week and loses were only 50% by bombing and yet WitW gives 60-70% for 10 weeks.

Recent analysis of ground combat deaths in various wars has shown that, for WW2,
military wounds and deaths were caused primarily by four sources:


Small Arms fire: 5-10% of wounds, <1% of deaths
Mortars, Grenades, Mines, and other lightweight explosive devices: 40-50% of wounds, 20-40% deaths
Artillery (primarily blast and direct fragmentation): 30-50% of wounds, 50-60% of deaths
Bombs: 5-10% of wounds, < 5% of deaths

The amounts varied heavily by the particular battle, as locale terrain plays a huge roll in determining both what
weapons are prevalent, and the effectiveness of each.
For instance, artillery had a very low impact on deaths in the various Pacific island campaigns, where the
vast majority of casualties were from mortars, grenades, and mines, followed by small arms. However,
in the various Western Desert campaigns, artillery had an even higher total (due to the open terrain and hard rocks,
which amplified artillery's effectiveness).



Major General J. B. A. Bailey, British Army (retired) wrote:


From the middle of the eighteenth century to the middle of the nineteenth, artillery is judged to have accounted for perhaps 50% of battlefield casualties. In the sixty years preceding 1914, this figure was probably as low as 10 percent. The remaining 90 percent fell to small arms, whose range and accuracy had come to rival those of artillery. ... [By WWI] The British Royal Artillery, at over one million men, grew to be larger than the Royal Navy. Bellamy (1986), pp. 1–7, cites the percentage of casualties caused by artillery in various theaters since 1914: in the First World War, 45 percent of Russian casualties and 58 percent of British casualties on the Western Front; in the Second World War, 75 percent of British casualties in North Africa and 51 percent of Soviet casualties (61 percent in 1945) and 70 percent of German casualties on the Eastern Front; and in the Korean War, 60 percent of US casualties, including those inflicted by mortars.[36]

—&#8201;J. B. A. Bailey (2004). Field artillery and firepower



Looking for more data but looks like 10% of loses were caused by "bombing" and 50-70% by artillery fire depending on weather/terrain ect ect.



Image
Attachments
480030040DA5FC07.jpg
480030040DA5FC07.jpg (109.72 KiB) Viewed 1700 times
Beta Tester WitW & WitE
User avatar
Peltonx
Posts: 5814
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2006 2:24 am
Contact:

RE: Is this a Desert Storm Exploit or WW II?

Post by Peltonx »

Clearly there is something wrong. I gave all units 1 or 2 AA units and posted AA Regiments in every town/AB in the fighting area over the 10 weeks.


1. Lose ratio is off by 3x Historical was 1 German for 1.5 allied
2. Loses caused by bombing is 5x Historical was 10-15% not 60-70%
3. Operation Cobra lasted a week not 10
4. No down side to exploit or poor design how ever you want to look at it.

Fixes.

1. Up V sites VP out put.
2. As KWG posted after 1 bombing run the AA dropped off allot - it should not-appears to be a clear ammo bug same as WitE
100% of the AA in a hex should not be wasting ammo on a 10 plane bombing run. I explosed this exploit in my game vs MT.
3. Clearly plane bombing is way over powered and needs to be turned down about 400%



Beta Tester WitW & WitE
User avatar
Seminole
Posts: 2253
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:56 am

RE: Is this a Desert Storm Exploit or WW II?

Post by Seminole »

1. Lose ratio is off by 3x Historical was 1 German for 1.5 allied

Since the strategy/tactics differ, how exactly is that germane? I've asked this before, but you never respond to it.
You seem to expect 'historical' casualties irrespective of the strategy and tactics employed. Why?
2. Loses caused by bombing is 5x Historical was 10-15% not 60-70%

see above
If he is doing 20x the historical amount of tactical bombing, should he still only cause 'historical' casualties with it? If so, why?
3. Operation Cobra lasted a week not 10

Why did Operation Cobra last less than a week historically?
4. No down side to exploit or poor design how ever you want to look at it.

There are certainly trade offs, but is it not also possible that the Allies erred historically in not providing more tactical support instead of strategic bombing?
2. As KWG posted after 1 bombing run the AA dropped off allot - it should not-appears to be a clear ammo bug same as WitE

Another area to look into here is disruption.
I noticed doing a lot of unit bombing in the Rommel Attacks scenario that many of the losses were being borne by AA (do FBs try to focus on SEAD?), but mainly I was creating disruption.

Check out 9.4.1:
During the Logistics phase, ground elements in units gain additional fatigue based on the unit’s morale. Following this the ground elements may take damage based on the fatigue of the ground element... Units adjacent to an enemy unit during their logistics phase gain 4 times as much fatigue and there is 16 times more probability that damaged ground elements will be destroyed during this phase compared to units not adjacent to an enemy unit. This represents the additional stress and strain of being in the front line.
...
Disruption from combat is converted into fatigue before any new combat...

Might explain the decline in proficiency of your AA to subsequent attacks.
3. Clearly plane bombing is way over powered and needs to be turned down about 400%

By your own observation Panzer Lehr suffered 50% of their losses to aerial bombardment under Cobra. How do you reconcile reducing the losses by 75% when KWG is committing many more aircraft than Cobra, and for a longer period of time? Given that his commitment is larger, longer, and if I'm not mistaken your own troop concentrations are higher, shouldn't we expect an even higher percentage of losses to airpower under KWG's Super Cobra?

I'm not sure who is privvy to what is going on 'under the hood', but I'm very curious how terrain and fortification level affect air attacks. e.g. Bocage creates LOS problems at ground level, but would pretty much be clear terrain to the fly boys. Certainly not the same as trying to find and bomb targets in woods or rough.

"War is never a technical problem only, and if in pursuing technical solutions you neglect the psychological and the political, then the best technical solutions will be worthless." - Hermann Balck
HMSWarspite
Posts: 1405
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2002 10:38 pm
Location: Bristol, UK

RE: Is this a Desert Storm Exploit or WW II?

Post by HMSWarspite »

Pelton seems to expect historical losses regardless of the game situation and tactics. All seems a bit strange to me... I would say Middle Earth, but he's been so good in not using the term I will refrain&#128522;.

Pelton, he's losing Vp every turn, so is not winning, he won't be able to keep it up for ever (winter etc), and you could easily mitigate it further. We really don't know how realistic this is, as there is no history to give direct precident and I haven't seen any real analysis in the elements except Cobra, and no real analysis of that.

I really don't think this definition of exploit will catch on (use of a feature or tactic in game that deviates from history and doesn't help you win- in which case most of my games are full of exploits!)
I have a cunning plan, My Lord
HMSWarspite
Posts: 1405
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2002 10:38 pm
Location: Bristol, UK

RE: Is this a Desert Storm Exploit or WW II?

Post by HMSWarspite »


Looking for more data but looks like 10% of loses were caused by "bombing" and 50-70% by artillery fire depending on weather/terrain ect ect.


But Pelton, you have missed another significant issue. Some tens of thousands of German civilians were killed by area bombing and missed precision bombing even in July 44. The game is way out of whack there too, the casualty percentages are way off. This is a big issue. Huge. Completely Middle Earth. How can the game be so far out on that percentage of casualties. He isn't getting any manpower hits at all! You ought to include that in your posts.&#128564;
I have a cunning plan, My Lord
User avatar
RedLancer
Posts: 4338
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 9:09 am
Location: UK

RE: Is this a Desert Storm Exploit or WW II?

Post by RedLancer »

This is not an exploit.

- Strategic Bombers were used to attack ground formations. Therefore this tactic must be allowed to be used in the game.
- The SBP VPs are part of the game to ensure that strategic bombers need to attack cities and their industry. KWG is not gaining valuable SBPs needed to gain a victory and we have no idea how many VPs KWG has failed to gain by not bombing the Reich.
- The argument that losses should match history in this game is utter nonsense. Notwithstanding the fact that the bombing is way beyond history neither is the defensive strategy historical. In 1944 the Axis managed to man a single frontline and never managed to create an operational reserve as they had to commit units piecemeal as they arrived. Where in history was the equivalent of three hexes of defensive lines and significant Panzer reserves? There wasn't.
- What is good for the goose is good for the gander. You cannot criticise ahistorical play in your opponent when you employ ahistorical tactics in almost every aspect of your gameplay. Furthermore you should not criticise the game when you are on the receiving end of someone who maximises the toolset to their benefit too.

Please do continue the argument but let's drop the inflammatory phrases like 'Desert Storm Exploit'.
John
WitE2 Asst Producer
WitE & WitW Dev
User avatar
KWG
Posts: 1249
Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2012 4:45 pm

RE: Is this a Desert Storm Exploit or WW II?

Post by KWG »

"The analysts point out that in June, July, August and September the 8th Air Force did a lot of tactical bombing, whereas in October the 8th Air Force engaged in exclusively on strategic targets."


WW2
"the 70-75% casualties are from fragmentation producing weapons, this includes bombs, artillery, hand grenades, mortars, etc. and was gathered from casualty data. The doctors or graves registration personnel didn't concern themselves with what weapon actually caused the fragmentation. Just like a gunshot wound is a gunshot wound, they don't generally know if it came from an infantryman's rifle, a sniper or a machinegun. It could be/was further refined by after action reports, if the battle included artillery and mortars but no aircraft then you know bombs weren't a factor."





As we all know planes should not be doing 2/3 of the KIA for 10 weeks, sure a few weeks but this is simple another Middle Earth WAD exploit.

Why is a few weeks ok but not more?


How many civilians were killed by aircraft?
What if that destruction was applied to the battlefield instead?


Ive posted lots of info showing that some of the commanders at the time wanted to do such.
But then, what is a QUOTE from people actually there compared to a statistic from years later.


Can I get "50-70% by artillery fire" enemy casualties even when I have no artillery in the battle?
It can be said that Naval guns caused less than 1% of ground casualties in ww2. So units on the coast can expect the same, just 1% casualties?

In game, as many troops as there are being bombed in would be hard not to hit something.

Are you saying aircraft are too powerful? OR Iam using them too much?
3. Clearly plane bombing is way over powered and needs to be turned down about 400%
If you are saying that they are too powerful and should be coded down, then for WiTE 2.0 it may be best to leave that small number/bomb load of Luftwaffe on the airfield.
Or will their effect have to be coded back up?

2. As KWG posted after 1 bombing run the AA dropped off allot - it should not-appears to be a clear ammo bug same as WitE
100% of the AA in a hex should not be wasting ammo on a 10 plane bombing run. I explosed this exploit in my game vs MT.

For clarification which post was that?


Germany has not been bombed for 10 weeks and no V-1 sites have been bombed.

THAT IS NOT TRUE



You are more than likely going to win, or have you crunched the data and hexs ,till the end, and it shows a possible different ending?
If your simply going to whine or say so and so exploites so that makes this exploit ok don't P
"whine"? If so Iam merely a faint echo.




///////////////// This pdf can be found and it makes for a good read.
Image
Attachments
362C.jpg
362C.jpg (113.34 KiB) Viewed 1704 times
"A word was said - a mare is standing by the fence."
User avatar
Peltonx
Posts: 5814
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2006 2:24 am
Contact:

RE: Is this a Desert Storm Exploit or WW II?

Post by Peltonx »

ORIGINAL: Seminole
1. Lose ratio is off by 3x Historical was 1 German for 1.5 allied

Since the strategy/tactics differ, how exactly is that germane? I've asked this before, but you never respond to it.

I have answered this 2 other time, but will again. The different lose ratio is caused by an poorly designed air system.

You seem to expect 'historical' casualties irrespective of the strategy and tactics employed. Why?

I also answered this before but will again. There is no strategy or tactic, its an exploit of the system that give 70% of loses caused by bombing. Historically that simply was not possible, so the design is poor. 70% of loses were caused by artillery.
2. Loses caused by bombing is 5x Historical was 10-15% not 60-70%

see above
If he is doing 20x the historical amount of tactical bombing, should he still only cause 'historical' casualties with it?
If so, why?

There is no If we know he is based on his and my data, so that's not a question. We know the same thing can be done by simply bombing troops on the coast before u even invade.

3. Operation Cobra lasted a week not 10

Why did Operation Cobra last less than a week historically?

Logistics and The most important constraints in safely employing airpower were well known to the army’s senior ground commanders. Even if the air forces attacked at the right time and place, there was still no guarantee they'd hit the enemy.Accuracy was problematic.For medium bombers to have a 95 percent chance of hitting a 6,000 square foot target, they had to drop 600 bombs (medium bombers were considered 2.5 times more accurate than Cobra's main punch, the heavy bombers).


4. No down side to exploit or poor design how ever you want to look at it.

There are certainly trade offs, but is it not also possible that the Allies erred historically in not providing more
tactical support instead of strategic bombing?

NO as per the above post. HVY bombers were useless and even medium next to useless tring to hit a target, in other words they were usless tacticly.

2. As KWG posted after 1 bombing run the AA dropped off allot - it should not-appears to be a clear ammo bug same as WitE

Another area to look into here is disruption.
I noticed doing a lot of unit bombing in the Rommel Attacks scenario that many of the losses were being borne
by AA (do FBs try to focus on SEAD?), but mainly I was creating disruption.

Check out 9.4.1:
During the Logistics phase, ground elements in units gain additional fatigue based on the unit’s morale.
Following this the ground elements may take damage based on the fatigue of the ground element... Units
adjacent to an enemy unit during their logistics phase gain 4 times as much fatigue and there is 16 times
more probability that damaged ground elements will be destroyed during this phase compared to units not adjacent
to an enemy unit. This represents the additional stress and strain of being in the front line.
...
Disruption from combat is converted into fatigue before any new combat...

Might explain the decline in proficiency of your AA to subsequent attacks.

Good points that make it clear that spamming small recon and bombing missions caused a major impact on "stress" This same exploit was used allot in WitE and was nerfed after it became the tactic of the day. You attack with a 1 CV unit and it would cause 100% of the defending units 50+ CV to fire all weapons. So you attack 5 to 6 times with 1 cv units them attack with a 20 CV stack vs a 50 defending and win 75% of the time because the defender was out of ammo+ fatigue ect ect. 2by3 ignored this exploit for 6+ months because I pointed it out but had to fix it when everyone started using the exploit.
3. Clearly plane bombing is way over powered and needs to be turned down about 400%

By your own observation Panzer Lehr suffered 50% of their losses to aerial bombardment under Cobra.
How do you reconcile reducing the losses by 75% when KWG is committing many more aircraft than Cobra,
and for a longer period of time? Given that his commitment is larger, longer, and if I'm not mistaken
your own troop concentrations are higher, shouldn't we expect an even higher percentage of losses to airpower under
KWG's Super Cobra?

I'm not sure who is privvy to what is going on 'under the hood', but I'm very curious how terrain and fortification level affect air attacks. e.g. Bocage creates LOS problems at ground level, but would pretty much be clear terrain to the fly boys. Certainly not the same as trying to find and bomb targets in woods or rough.


What targets?

Communications wasn't a panacea, because pilots found it difficult to fix their exact positions even under ideal conditions.Fighter pilots went into battle with their maps strapped to their knee -- reading coordinates, flying their aircraft, watching out for enemy planes, antiaircraft fire, friendly troops, civilian non-combatants and enemy targets all at the same time.Fighter pilots when asked how they decided when they were behind the enemy lines claimed:

It was quite simple. All they [pilots] did was watch

the roads and when they saw a Frenchman flogging a horse and drawing a cart down the road they knew they were over German held territory. On our side of the line, trucks and transportation lined the road, generally bumper to bumper.[10]

As imprecise and haphazard as the task of locating and identifying the enemy lines was for the fighters, the difficulty increased exponentially for medium and heavy bombers flying at much higher altitudes.



http://isme.tamu.edu/JSCOPE00/Carafano00.html
Beta Tester WitW & WitE
User avatar
KWG
Posts: 1249
Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2012 4:45 pm

RE: Is this a Desert Storm Exploit or WW II?

Post by KWG »

There are certainly trade offs, but is it not also possible that the Allies erred historically in not providing more tactical support instead of strategic bombing?
NO as per the above post. HVY bombers were useless and even medium next to useless tring to hit a target, in other words they were usless tacticly.


In retrospect von Rundstedt regarded the St-Lo bombing as "the most effective, as well as the most impressive, tactical use of air power in his experience."
"A word was said - a mare is standing by the fence."
User avatar
Peltonx
Posts: 5814
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2006 2:24 am
Contact:

RE: Is this a Desert Storm Exploit or WW II?

Post by Peltonx »

ORIGINAL: KWG
There are certainly trade offs, but is it not also possible that the Allies erred historically in not providing more tactical support instead of strategic bombing?
NO as per the above post. HVY bombers were useless and even medium next to useless tring to hit a target, in other words they were usless tacticly.


In retrospect von Rundstedt regarded the St-Lo bombing as "the most effective, as well as the most impressive, tactical use of air power in his experience."

That's a quote where is your data?

As has been posted General's make stuff up to fit there story or save there butts, allied or axis.

trolling does not = debate
Beta Tester WitW & WitE
User avatar
KWG
Posts: 1249
Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2012 4:45 pm

RE: Is this a Desert Storm Exploit or WW II?

Post by KWG »

Where is my data?


RIGHT WHERE YOU LEFT IT.
KWG was nice enough to post this on operation Cobra

panzer lehr
Bayerlein left a remarkable account of the effects of the COBRA bombing and ground assault on his already war-weary command.
In response to postwar interrogation he wrote:

We had the main losses by pattern bombing, less by artillery, still less by tanks and smaller arms.
The actual losses of dead and wounded were approximately:

by bombing 50%
by artillery 30%
by other weapons 20%
"A word was said - a mare is standing by the fence."
User avatar
Peltonx
Posts: 5814
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2006 2:24 am
Contact:

RE: Is this a Desert Storm Exploit or WW II?

Post by Peltonx »

ORIGINAL: HMSWarspite

Pelton seems to expect historical losses regardless of the game situation and tactics.
All seems a bit strange to me... I would say Middle Earth, but he's been so good in not using the term I will refrain&#128522;.

Pelton, he's losing Vp every turn, so is not winning, he won't be able to keep it up for ever (winter etc), and you could easily mitigate it further. We really don't know how realistic this is, as there is no history to give direct precident and I haven't seen any real analysis in the elements except Cobra, and no real analysis of that.

I really don't think this definition of exploit will catch on (use of a feature or tactic in game that deviates from history and doesn't help you win- in which case most of my games are full of exploits!)

We all paid money for a product that claimed to model historical events during WW II

If that product is modeling a Desert Storm air system and not WW II something is wrong.
Beta Tester WitW & WitE
User avatar
Peltonx
Posts: 5814
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2006 2:24 am
Contact:

RE: Is this a Desert Storm Exploit or WW II?

Post by Peltonx »

ORIGINAL: HMSWarspite


Looking for more data but looks like 10% of loses were caused by "bombing" and 50-70% by artillery fire depending on weather/terrain ect ect.


But Pelton, you have missed another significant issue. Some tens of thousands of German civilians were killed by area bombing and missed precision bombing even in July 44. The game is way out of whack there too, the casualty percentages are way off. This is a big issue. Huge. Completely Middle Earth. How can the game be so far out on that percentage of casualties. He isn't getting any manpower hits at all! You ought to include that in your posts.&#128564;

Very good point.

One reason Cobra only lasted a week was because of political. We were bombing our allies civilians.


During the bombing Allied planes killed and wounded an unknown number of French civilians, as well as hundreds of American soldiers.

a 2nd reason was friendly bombing.

Nor does General Bradley mention that Brigadier General F. H. Smith, the Director of Operations for the Allied Expeditionary Air Force at the July 19 meeting at Stanmore had briefed Bradley that there might be “gross bombing errors causing troop casualties.”[29]In short, General Bradley’s own accounts of the Cobra bombing did much to obfuscate his personal responsibility.The evidence suggests he knew the front lines troops would incur casualties.He was willing to take that risk. He was not, however, prepared to acknowledge this truth publicly. His explanations are a disingenuous moment in what is regarded as an otherwise honorable and distinguished career.

Why General Bradley made such poor choices with regard to this particular aspect of the campaign cannot be confidently fixed from the available evidence.However, it is clear that whether due to a serious tactical misjudgment, intentionally assuming the terrible risk of killing and maiming his own troops, or unrealistic wishful thinking on his part, General Bradley failed to adequately address the issue of protection for his ground forces.


3rd was lack of targets.


pilots when asked how they decided when they were behind the enemy lines claimed:

It was quite simple. All they [pilots] did was watch

the roads and when they saw a Frenchman flogging a horse and drawing a cart down the road they knew they were over German held territory. On our side of the line, trucks and transportation lined the road, generally bumper to bumper.[10]

As imprecise and haphazard as the task of locating and identifying the enemy lines was for the fighters, the difficulty increased exponentially for medium and heavy bombers flying at much higher altitudes.



Beta Tester WitW & WitE
User avatar
RedLancer
Posts: 4338
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 9:09 am
Location: UK

RE: Is this a Desert Storm Exploit or WW II?

Post by RedLancer »

I do not condone any trolling. KWG is not trolling - he is providing information to support his opinion (which I infer is that his use of airpower is legitimate). If every time someone posted their concerns about the game and the Dev Team speed of response I classed it as trolling, some would have been banned ages ago.

John
WitE2 Asst Producer
WitE & WitW Dev
User avatar
KWG
Posts: 1249
Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2012 4:45 pm

RE: Is this a Desert Storm Exploit or WW II?

Post by KWG »

This sums it up best:
ORIGINAL: Red Lancer

This is not an exploit.

- Strategic Bombers were used to attack ground formations. Therefore this tactic must be allowed to be used in the game.
- The SBP VPs are part of the game to ensure that strategic bombers need to attack cities and their industry. KWG is not gaining valuable SBPs needed to gain a victory and we have no idea how many VPs KWG has failed to gain by not bombing the Reich.
- The argument that losses should match history in this game is utter nonsense. Notwithstanding the fact that the bombing is way beyond history neither is the defensive strategy historical. In 1944 the Axis managed to man a single frontline and never managed to create an operational reserve as they had to commit units piecemeal as they arrived. Where in history was the equivalent of three hexes of defensive lines and significant Panzer reserves? There wasn't.
- What is good for the goose is good for the gander. You cannot criticise ahistorical play in your opponent when you employ ahistorical tactics in almost every aspect of your gameplay. Furthermore you should not criticise the game when you are on the receiving end of someone who maximises the toolset to their benefit too.

Please do continue the argument but let's drop the inflammatory phrases like 'Desert Storm Exploit'.

We all paid money for a product that claimed to model historical events during WW II

If that product is modeling a Desert Storm air system and not WW II something is wrong.


And you want me to play WW1. NO... this man -Doolittle- says we will adapt, innovate and overcome.



Doolittle, always the innovator:
" We have developed a very efficient type of anti-aircraft marking. Twelve AA guns can mark a straight line something over 2 miles long with about a 400-yard interval between bursts. This will be ideal for marking front line troops."

WARNING FOLLOWING PHOTOGRAPGH MAY CONTAIN GRAPHIC EXPLOIT FOR SOME VIEWERS
Image



AND as Ive stated in many posts Iam not doing a straight-up Cobra NOR Close Air Support
Do you want me to finish my "BOMBING LAB" thread as to how the missions would cover a 10 mile hex?
Attachments
jd.jpg
jd.jpg (118.8 KiB) Viewed 1700 times
"A word was said - a mare is standing by the fence."
User avatar
Peltonx
Posts: 5814
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2006 2:24 am
Contact:

modeling Desert Storm or WW II?

Post by Peltonx »

ORIGINAL: Red Lancer

This is not an exploit.

- Strategic Bombers were used to attack ground formations. Therefore this tactic must be allowed to be used in the game.

I agree but its modeled poorly by the current ruleset based on historical data.
1. pilots when asked how they decided when they were behind the enemy lines claimed:

It was quite simple. All they [pilots] did was watch

the roads and when they saw a Frenchman flogging a horse and drawing a cart down the road they knew they were over German held territory. On our side of the line, trucks and transportation lined the road, generally bumper to bumper.[10]

As imprecise and haphazard as the task of locating and identifying the enemy lines was for the fighters, the difficulty increased exponentially for medium and heavy bombers flying at much higher altitudes.
2.The most important constraints in safely employing airpower were well known to the army’s senior ground commanders.
Even if the air forces attacked at the right time and place, there was still no guarantee they'd hit the enemy.
Accuracy was problematic.For medium bombers to have a 95 percent chance of hitting a 6,000 square foot target, they had to drop
600 bombs (medium bombers were considered 2.5 times more accurate than Cobra's main punch, the heavy bombers).
3. the game also does not model civilian or frieldly fire (allied planes bombing allied troops).
During the bombing Allied planes killed and wounded an unknown number of French civilians, as well as hundreds of American soldiers.

So based on the historical facts the air system does not model 2 and 3 and 1 is way over powered based on historical data and in game data.




- The SBP VPs are part of the game to ensure that strategic bombers need to attack cities and their industry.
KWG is not gaining valuable SBPs needed to gain a victory and we have no idea how many VPs KWG has failed to
gain by not bombing the Reich.

I agree that SBP VP's are part of the game and need to attack citys, but again based on in game data KWG is not and there is no down side to not using his hvys/med bombers to hit citys ect
Also the game is not just about not losing VP's for allies, because that gives Germany VP's. WA's gain VP's from citys also and if you can kill off 75% of the German troops using air power and not ground troops your saving VP aka gaining VP's
Your coin has 2 sides not one side.


- The argument that losses should match history in this game is utter nonsense.

So your saying this game does not model WW II, but Desert Storm?

Notwithstanding the fact that the bombing is way beyond history neither is the defensive strategy historical.

In 1944 the Axis managed to man a single frontline and never managed to create an operational reserve as they had
to commit units piecemeal as they arrived. Where in history was the equivalent of three hexes of defensive lines
and significant Panzer reserves? There wasn't.
- What is good for the goose is good for the gander.
You cannot criticise ahistorical play in your opponent when you employ ahistorical tactics in almost
every aspect of your gameplay. Furthermore you should not criticise the game when you are on the receiving
end of someone who maximises the toolset to their benefit too.

So your saying its and exploit?

or that

all exploits are equal and all players should exploit the game?

I am not doing anything unhistorical. I have a single line up front and the 2ns line is units getting replacements this was a standard things done during WW II.

Point out 1 thing I am doing that's not historical in my game. That's your opinion nothing more.
I am sending all units to the front and rotating out depleted units to receive replasements - what is so unhistorical about that?
Your seem to be making a personal attack and not sticking to the data.

We all thought we were buying a product that modeled as close as possible historical combat during WW II.

As with WitE the game required dozens of patches nerfing exploits (use of a feature or tactic in game that deviates from history
and helps you win. Examples of past nerfed exploits

1. HQBU spamming
2. invasion spam
3. ammo exploit/ammo bug
4. 1v1=2v1
5. spam bombing of AB's
6. spam para drops

The question is does the toolset model what the product claimed to model when people bought the game? When an exploit/bug/ poor modeling is found does the design team fix the problem.




Beta Tester WitW & WitE
Post Reply

Return to “Gary Grigsby's War in the West”