I feel like a Beta Tester

[zakblood]

post in tech support as a bug in the beta build so developer see it's same as any found thanks, as i'm sure Pocus will fix all that's added or noticed / reported etc

i'm sure if we all work together we can move it forward, same as any game tbh, all have little minor issues for some, major ones for others, and most if not all get worked out in the end, just takes time for some

[Ostwindflak]

I have not noticed anything yet.

[Queeg]

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

Never make claims that you can't prove. It puts one's entire argument under a microscope that one doesn't want.

I'm comfortable with the microscope. And I'm comfortable predicting that if they don't change their ways, and start acting less like amateurs and more like a business deserving of the big boy prices they're charging, then their fan base will decline.

As I said, I could be wrong. Time will tell.

[typhoon]

Why would we need them to change their ways they are a proven company who make quality well supported games. An outstanding back catalogue of historical titles which they have never dumbed down and always pushed forward with extra features. Every forum here at Matrix has games that have been patched as various things are tweaked or enhanced. Barring the CTD that some have reported there is nothing which stops this game from being a whole lot of fun to play and learn. It's not easy to get every facet of such a conflict correct from the outset but given time and customer support these guys will do it. Till then play the game report the issues and continue to enjoy.

[Aurelian]

ORIGINAL: typhoon

Why would we need them to change their ways they are a proven company who make quality well supported games. An outstanding back catalogue of historical titles which they have never dumbed down and always pushed forward with extra features. Every forum here at Matrix has games that have been patched as various things are tweaked or enhanced. Barring the CTD that some have reported there is nothing which stops this game from being a whole lot of fun to play and learn. It's not easy to get every facet of such a conflict correct from the outset but given time and customer support these guys will do it. Till then play the game report the issues and continue to enjoy.

That was my point. Centuries of book printing, and you still get bad ones. Going to some other "book shop" isn't going to change that.

You get the same thing with computer programs. But unlike books, they get patched. (No patch for my 118 year old Moltke book....)

And one could always play Crown of Glory or <shudder> March of the Eagles.

Don't have to be an "apologist" for AGEOD to understand that programming a game of this scope isn't programming Pong for your Atari 2600.

Just look at Paradox games. It's been said that you have to get to 1.05 before they're playable. And no one is talking about their "shrinking" fan base.

[Queeg]

ORIGINAL: typhoon
Till then play the game report the issues and continue to enjoy.

The game isn't enjoyable, for me at least, in its present state. I don't have the time or patience to invest 20-30 turns into a campaign just to get to a critical event that doesn't fire at all or worse deletes half my army. Maybe some find that enjoyable, but I don't. Call me picky.

[tevans6220]

ORIGINAL: zakblood

has anyone in this thread with a gaming issue tried the new beta build and seen if it worked for them?

as without feedback on if yes it works or no it doesn't, how can a beta release become a full released version?

it's not those that don't have issues that need to test it, it's those that do have issues, but is open to everyone, as it's a patch not just a bug fix

There lies the problem that I tried pointing out a couple of weeks ago. We have to test it. Why? We paid for it. We shouldn't have to test anything. That really needs to be done before release. The way it seems to work with Ageod is they release a game, let customers find the problems and then release numerous beta patches for customers to test. Some may see that as customer service but I see it as a problem in their quality assurance and testing process. Imagine buying a new car and being told that you have to help test for problems with new systems. This has been going on with Ageod with practically every release and it's getting tiresome. I love their games and I think both of the Phils are really great guys but it's getting to the point where I'm going to stop buying their games. I don't have the time or money to buy a game and then wait for them to finish it. This is like buying a book with the author telling you that the last chapters are still being worked on.

I don't think anybody is complaining about minor bugs here. But events that don't work or don't work right is a major problem that should have been fixed before release. So should any crashing problems. You can understand cutting the developers some slack if this was their first release but it isn't. It's been this way with practically every Ageod release and it's getting old.

[Queeg]

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

Just look at Paradox games. It's been said that you have to get to 1.05 before they're playable. And no one is talking about their "shrinking" fan base.

Sorry but there's no comparison between Paradox support and what AGEOD offers. Not even close.

Paradox games work on release. The early patches are 90% squashing small bugs and tweaking rules. (After that, they typically wander off in pursuit of DLCs that lose the orignal focus of the game - but that's a different story.)

Sorry, but AGEOD is a different story. The AI literally couldn't play TEAW when that game was released. I played multiple games where I didn't even move a single unit, just hit the next turn button repeatedly, sat back and let the AI try to win - and the AI did nothing. It literally couldn't march through empty countryside to seize an undefended Paris. And I offered to provide saves for the devs to evaluate - no interest. Within days of release, the betas were just telling everyone to play PBEM. And now, a year and half later, not much has changed - the AI still can't play the game to the level it does in CW2.

Instead for learning from that experience, and working to improve their core game engine, they've come out with another game that is far too complex for the AI to handle. Just read the posts on the AGEOD board. The AI plays WoN better than it does TEAW, but that's mostly because the game engine better fits the era. But the AI still has no idea how to assemble armies or keep track of its units or how to conduct diplomacy.

I'd love to see AGEOD have the same success as Paradox. I'd be a first-day buyer of everything they put out (which I basically am anyway). But they're not headed in that direction.

[Queeg]

ORIGINAL: tevans6220

ORIGINAL: zakblood

has anyone in this thread with a gaming issue tried the new beta build and seen if it worked for them?

as without feedback on if yes it works or no it doesn't, how can a beta release become a full released version?

it's not those that don't have issues that need to test it, it's those that do have issues, but is open to everyone, as it's a patch not just a bug fix

There lies the problem that I tried pointing out a couple of weeks ago. We have to test it. Why? We paid for it. We shouldn't have to test anything. That really needs to be done before release. The way it seems to work with Ageod is they release a game, let customers find the problems and then release numerous beta patches for customers to test. Some may see that as customer service but I see it as a problem in their quality assurance and testing process. Imagine buying a new car and being told that you have to help test for problems with new systems. This has been going on with Ageod with practically every release and it's getting tiresome. I love their games and I think both of the Phils are really great guys but it's getting to the point where I'm going to stop buying their games. I don't have the time or money to buy a game and then wait for them to finish it. This is like buying a book with the author telling you that the last chapters are still being worked on.

I don't think anybody is complaining about minor bugs here. But events that don't work or don't work right is a major problem that should have been fixed before release. So should any crashing problems. You can understand cutting the developers some slack if this was their first release but it isn't. It's been this way with practically every Ageod release and it's getting old.

There's always been this weird vibe with AGEOD about how they're little guys and they try really hard and they release gazillions of beta patches, and so we all just should be thankful and sing their praises lest they go away. As if treating them like a normal company is somehow unfair or even disloyal.

But half the games here are developed by small teams. Look at Decisive Campaigns: Barbarossa. Another tiny team that developed a core game engine and improved it steadily to produce a really brilliant product. DC:B is every bit as innovative and historically evocative as anything AGEOD has produced since BoA - and it also works!

Every game in the AGEOD lineup exists in a permanent state of beta patches. People applaud them for how great they support their games, but I just see it as an inability to ever finish anything. If their engine worked as it should, they wouldn't need endless patches. I kinda feel sorry for them - it must feel like they're trying to dig a hole in the sea.

Someday, hopefully soon, they need to take a step back and critically evaluate their game engine and probably get some outside help to overhaul it (ala what happened with World War One Centennial Edition). Folks on the AGEOD board have pointed out several areas of inefficiency and poor coding in the core engine and databases. Until they fix the engine, just adding more layers of new features that the engine can't handle will just make matters worse. They'll never escape the beta patch hell.

And it certainly won't help to just keep telling them what great guys they are.

[typhoon]

Not to be a Paradox basher but seem to remember a Europa Universalis game I purchased I forget which number I never did get to play had need of a pixel shader or some such thing and integrated Intel graphics just never had it no mention on the game specs that was an awful unhappy lot of people on their forums on that one. The map looked like grey mist nothing else appeared and if I remember rightly they never did fix the issue. But that is very off topic so apologies for that. Meanwhile Ageod continue to put out great games and improve on them as they evolve I see nothing wrong with this approach.

[zakblood]

some seen to forget, that all games have problems on some hardware / software, doesn't matter if it's the smallest developer or the largest, all use patches and updates and those who have bought the game to make it better, if you don't wish to do this, that's fine, but please understand that all games on any platform are like this now days, and tbh have been like it since day one, as there's just to many versions of hardware and software combo's out there to possible test them all, you use a operating system that is constantly updated with fixes and improvements the more that use it, or comment on it after something has gone wrong or didn't work etc, also things alter or work differently on different setups regarding hardware / software, understand this and everyone is happy, don't understand this then maybe wait a year or so for some games to develop, no matter what developer or game market you like, as it doesn't just apply to pc war games, i was on the Alpha / Beta for xbox one destiny and more than a few other titles, so may know more about it than some, less maybe than others and know as well as any also how frustrating something is once bought to not work when it does fine on other peoples set up, been there done that and worn the t-shirt on many occasions[:D] [;)]

if 100 buy it and 10 post it doesn't work, then poor design and testing, if 1000 but it and 10 post it doesn't work, then maybe hardware / software combo, if only 1000 buy it but your the handful it doesn't work for, then it's bad luck but no need to take it as a personnel attack as nobody wishes anything to be released and not work for everyone, but it's a dream if it goes that way, but in the real world, hiccups happen, steam released a update a few weeks back that stopped 10 of k plus games from working, it's life and i'm sure they also didn't mean to do it.

[Queeg]

ORIGINAL: zakblood

some seen to forget, that all games have problems on some hardware / software, doesn't matter if it's the smallest developer or the largest, all use patches and updates and those who have bought the game to make it better, if you don't wish to do this, that's fine, but please understand that all games on any platform are like this now days, and tbh have been like it since day one, as there's just to many versions of hardware and software combo's out there to possible test them all, you use a operating system that is constantly updated with fixes and improvements the more that use it, or comment on it after something has gone wrong or didn't work etc, also things alter or work differently on different setups regarding hardware / software, understand this and everyone is happy, don't understand this then maybe wait a year or so for some games to develop, no matter what developer or game market you like, as it doesn't just apply to pc war games, i was on the Alpha / Beta for xbox one destiny and more than a few other titles, so may know more about it than some, less maybe than others and know as well as any also how frustrating something is once bought to not work when it does fine on other peoples set up, been there done that and worn the t-shirt on many occasions[:D] [;)]

This is one of those statements that makes perfect sense so long as you don't think about it.

Yes, there are myriad varieties of PCs, hardware, etc. But that's true for every other AGEOD game; indeed, for every game here. But the fact remains that WoN has had a greater frequency of CTDs on release than any other AGEOD game, and worse than most other games here. It's not as if global PC hardware suddenly changed in the last six months. Sorry, but the change was a decline in AGEOD's quality control for this game.

More importantly, the vast majority of the problems with the game - as you surely know if you've been paying attention - have nothing to do with PC hardware or Martians or whatever other excuse you might want to make up. Events don't fire at all, or delete entire corps when they do, because they're poorly coded. Units wander the map aimlessly because the AI hasn't been coded to deal with multi-front, multi-national campaigns. Diplomatic messages go unanswered because the AI hasn't been coded to understand and conduct diplomacy. Turn times are far longer than they need be because the game has been coded to search thousands of database entries each turn (even data that isn't even relevant based on the current game date). And then there are several small, but amateurish, glitches: the game ships with missing artwork, they issue a patch with a faulty installation path - mistakes that would embarass your average preteen modder. Sorry, but these aren't things that work fine for some but not for others based on hardware pecularities. They're mistakes.

Please don't patronize us. So if only we were more sophisticated, and were blessed with your worldly knowledge of the gaming industry, then we'd understand that broken is OK? Nice try.

[zakblood]

fair point and comments tbh Queeg, i work as a beta tester to try and make things better for everyone, while i didn't work on this game, i'm sure plenty did and are still trying to sort out any issues that others are having, my comments aren't meant to patronize but to help and also say what is broken will get fixed, what's wrong will get patched and what doesn't work will do in the end, but not all gets sorted right away, first some like your self need to point a few more things out game play wise first, put yourself forward as i'm sure your time would be rewarded in a better game for all, as isn't that what we all want in the end?

fixes done so far, and now up to date in the latest beta release on the 13th of Jan 2016...

Engine improvements and fixes
AI
Minor nations won't go outside their home territory, unless under direct control by a major nation.
AI should concentrate forces more often. Work in progress!
Allied AIs will be much less prone to wander in others allied territories, if there is no threat there.
Lone leaders will much more rarely go on tourist tour, and if they do it should be quick!

Interface
when using ally requests window, you can now see the value the AI gives to regions in the region tooltip.
Revised how units are sorted and displayed in the unit panel, at the bottom of the interface.

Diplomacy
Liberating a nation will make them your ally (or if France/Great Britain, part of your Alliance or Coalition)
Minor nations should reply more often to requests. (They could have been 'dormant' if at peace, before).

Strait and passing fire
Forts will now fire only on ships passing in "designated regions".
All rivers and "estuaries", Dardanelles/Bosphore, and Neva Mouth are "designated"
There is also some chance that passing ships will evade fort fire. You will see a message if this occurs.
Gibraltar will no longer fire at the straits! Ships passing in Coastal Waters will no longer be fired upon!

Grand campaign balances and fixes
* Revised (and slightly reduced) cost in WSU and made balance between different units (arty and ships are proportionals)
* Improved WSU production for most nations (+added some production sites)
* Added an option to buy WSU (100) in exchange of Money (1000)
* Fixed movement cost in Alpine terrain that were erroneous
* Added more explanations in the tooltips for NM choices (options)
* Revised new France satellite nations crations to avoid ejection of French allies upon creation.
* Changed some naval OOB (Spanish Cartagena squadron, Russian caspian fleet)

* Fixed some more issues and territory transfers in Pressburg peace
* Fixed missing strings as per Forum remarks

* Revised initial 1805 Force Pools (to remove units otherwise created by options)

* Revised some RGD's renewal (you no longer get RGD's if you don't have the corresponding national modifiers)
* Added an event that will allow GBR to negotiate peace with France after London has fallen (generic peace via the diplomatic engine, a more specific peace treaty will be designed for a future patch after forum discussions are complete on the matter)


January 5th

Grand Campaigns
Changed all SOL and warships to shoot at a lower range, added some better protection on some ships , added 10% capture chance on SOL ships
Fixed errors in leaders titles
More Spanish Ulcer events (Entrevue de Bayonne, French Spain)
Fixed some issues with Pressburg peace (thks Vicberg)
Revised Options (Military and Econmic) to lower to 10% of initial value the coast in WSU (current bottleneck), plus added greater AI chance to select them
Fixed missing strings (Saxony changes sides 1806) and various recent forum remarks

Diplomacy
Formed nations don't propose new treaties
fixed a bug in exp forces creating issue in diplomacy

AI
Several smaller improvements in AI scripts for the campaigns, while waiting for deeper changes. Need a restart.


December 21st


Events
Improved Spanish Ulcer events
Fixed buggy event on leaders

Decisions
Fix to the siege works decision

December 19th

Diplomacy
Fixed an issue in defensive treaty not added properly
When making peace, you'll always get a passage right and supply right treaty for 24 turns.
Countries without owned regions don't DOW anyone. There is a limit to stupidity.
Expeditionary forces and fleets can be aborted if there is no common foe.

Map
The weird zoo with flying whales and swimming camels has been removed. This entry is part of the contest of 'strangest patch note in a video game' for year 2015.

Engine
Color-coding: If you don't want the engine to use faction main color in tooltip, edit the text file NGC\settings\userinterface.opt, there is an entry named inoCommonTTColor:
Set the value to 1, like here: inoCommonTTColor = 1

AI
AI will be much less prone to sent stacks without frontline units in non controlled territories

Interface & additional graphics
Can type space when renaming a game. Can close same window with <enter> key
Further refined 'play the anthem' logic on load game and new turn jingle
You'll always see all 7 major nations (Ottomans included even if technically they are a disorganized major) in objectives screen.
Added Missing Bocage graphics
Fixed Neapolitans missing units images
Added graphics on map for the key structures so players can identify important locations + added tooltips (need new campaign)

Campaign setups and historical events
(several fixes done by Vicberg) - if an event has not happened, the patch will updated it, otherwise you need to start a new game.

Pressburg peace further improved
Hannover can now be fully annexed by France. Will impact negatively relationships with Prussia and a few German minor states.
Firenze/Tuscany can now be fully annexed by France. Will impact negatively relationships with Austria, Spain and a few Italian minor states.
Papacy can now be fully annexed by France. Will impact negatively (and severely) relationships with Austria, Spain and a Sicily kingdom.
Several fixes on events (like HRE or Kingdom of Holland)
Fixes to Tilsit Treaty
Added specific "leader" (the rock) and defensive unit for Gibraltar fortress
Added Czar Paul I (for potential variant)
Revised 1805 campaign OOB and cities (a few added) + Hannover occupied in 1805 (since Atlenburg Convention of 1803 it is under French occupation)
Beefed up significantly Gibraltar defenses (and terrain is now alpine, making Assaults more difficults)
Improve Invasion of Russia events (including beefed up AI)
Improved Flavor events adding new armies to nations during campaign

Units and battle balancing
Changed all Arty models to decrease Damage inflicted through fire and Assault
Changed all Guards models which were 500% better than regulars in Assault hits. Now more inline with reality (120 à 150% max)
Reduced the CbtHit chance to 125/50 (was 400/80 before for fire/assault) in gamelogic
Revised all structures setup for GC to better balance locations and dispersion, as well as mix

[Queeg]

ORIGINAL: zakblood

fair point and comments tbh Queeg, i work as a beta tester to try and make things better for everyone, while i didn't work on this game, i'm sure plenty did and are still trying to sort out any issues that others are having, my comments aren't meant to patronize but to help and also say what is broken will get fixed, what's wrong will get patched and what doesn't work will do in the end, but not all gets sorted right away, first some like your self need to point a few more things out game play wise first, put yourself forward as i'm sure your time would be rewarded in a better game for all, as isn't that what we all want in the end?

Thanks. I agree we're all in this together. If I didn't care about their games, I wouldn't take the time to post here.

fixes done so far, and now up to date in the latest beta release on the 13th of Jan 2016...

Certainly, no one works harder than than these guys. That's never been the issue. I just hope they can find some time, amidst the endless treadmill of patches, to objectively assess their game engine and perhaps seek some outside input.

[Pocus]

This we did! As you might know, it has been announced at HOW 2015, the Slitherine summer convention, that Ageod will get a new engine in 2016-2017. This engine, named 'Archon Engine' is developed internally in Slitherine-Canada (even if that is not an official designation [;)] ).

[Queeg]

ORIGINAL: Pocus

This we did! As you might know, it has been announced at HOW 2015, the Slitherine summer convention, that Ageod will get a new engine in 2016-2017. This engine, named 'Archon Engine' is developed internally in Slitherine-Canada (even if that is not an official designation [;)] ).

That's great to hear! I'm all for anything that makes your life easier and helps you continue to produce great games.

[Jacekim]

I completely agree with Queeg. This is the first Ageod's game I didn't buy instantly. After reading about so many (non)playable factions, and having in mind previous experience, I assumed it would be plagued by different sort of bugs, obscure mechanics and poor manual which heavily borrows from previous titles. Judging by forum comments, by resisting initial urge to buy, I made right decision.

< Message edited by Emir Agic -- 1/14/2016 3:01:51 PM >

I should have checked the the Forums as Emir did!! If I had, I would have waited (or not bought it at all).
I am a vivid wargamer and have my eye on several of AGEOD titels (Barbarossa) BUT there is no way I will buy another game that is this bugged!
It is very frustrating and as somebody mentioned in this thread , I do not have time to invest in a campaign game that has crucial event is bugged and then restart it (again).
Am playing France Grand Campaign and neither the HRE or the Peace with Austria do not happen even though all the conditions are fulfilled.
This game is going on the shelf until the bigs are gone!

[76mm]

I haven't bought this game, and other than the various issues raised in this thread, one of the things holding me back is that the manual does not sound very thorough, which is pretty odd since the same engine has been used for how many games now?

I would think that the engine would be very thoroughly documented by now...

[Pocus]

A few things are not updated to the novelties of the game but there is now an errata you can download from the Ageod Forum

[zakblood]

WON Manual Errata Dec 27, 2015

pdf upload file zipped and shared

in txt format here, but on here it's the pdf

Code: Select all

http://www.ageod-forum.com/showthread.php?41756-Manual-Errata

thanks Pocus for the hard work as always[&o]